Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 12:38:24 pm

Title: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 12:38:24 pm
(of which there are, so obviously, many)

Energy drinks. Red Bull and their ilk. Every day on my stroll to the pool I pick up the discarded cans (and anyone who thinks youth is the vanguard of environmental change haven't encountered the pupils at my local secondary school).

They seem to exclusively consumed by people who really don't need energy, smell like carbonated sick, and their main selling point is that they contain taurine, an amino acid you only need if you're a cat.

Honestly, why they are so popular, I don't know.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 25 April, 2019, 12:40:28 pm
Marketing, I reckon.  I mean, they fill a niche of being something that both tastes bad and is perceived as cool for people who aren't legally allowed to buy beer[1].  But that doesn't explain their continued popularity (albeit usually with the addition of vodka) amongst the over-18s.

There's a 'Vodbull' shop round the corner from here.  I keep wanting to go in and ask what they actually sell, but I suspect that makes me an old fart.

(Also, who drives those cars with the giant can of redbull on the back?  Do they win them in a competition or something?  Or is someone paid to randomly park them around student areas?)



[1] Ob-xkcd (https://xkcd.com/1534/)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rafletcher on 25 April, 2019, 12:42:44 pm
Because they mix well with Vodka?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 25 April, 2019, 12:43:51 pm
Generally consumed by people who are on incredibly unhealthy diets.

Tequila slammers
I don't understand these.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 25 April, 2019, 12:46:32 pm
Tequila slammers
I don't understand these.

*googles*

Drunk people having fun with physics?  I suppose it's safer than drinking liquid nitrogen...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 12:51:59 pm
Marketing indeed (the internet tells me it was originally a Thai 'tonic' intended to keep truckers awake, which if you've driven on a Thai road, you'd understand), but I don't understand the reality. Do people drink it and thing 'mmm' this is good stuff? It reeks. And if that wasn't bad enough, it's now universally the smell of a British town centre on a Sunday morning, and that's not a recommendation.

There's another variety called Monster, which seems to big-up the volume of Red Bull, for those who really don't need it. Even the kids seem to rarely finish an entire can of that. I do have to wonder who sends their kids to school with a can of Red Bull, a Ginster's pasty, and a pavement sized slab of Dairy Milk.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rafletcher on 25 April, 2019, 12:53:39 pm
I do have to wonder who sends their kids to school with a can of Red Bull, a Ginster's pasty, and a pavement sized slab of Dairy Milk.

I think this belongs in the "You know you're middle aged" thread  ;D
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 12:58:07 pm
Quite probably. I was going to grumble as I picked up a can the wrong way and it deposited the remaining contents down my trousers and really the smell as I rinsed them clean made me almost retch.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 25 April, 2019, 01:24:25 pm
I think Red Bull is also consumed by those who want to be active without eating, like heavy alcohol drinkers.

You might have thought that the combination of sugar and caffeine would make this popular with long-distance cyclists.

We are thankfully more discerning than that.

I have never tried Red Bull or Monster.

Coffee and CAEK are another matter.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: perpetual dan on 25 April, 2019, 01:45:35 pm
I took these to be like pro plus, but swapping the furtive pill popping for display of consumption.

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rafletcher on 25 April, 2019, 01:48:43 pm
I took these to be like pro plus, but swapping the furtive pill popping for display of consumption.

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

I believe that may have been the original intent, or perhaps you and I share the same misunderstanding  ;D
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Mr Larrington on 25 April, 2019, 01:49:01 pm
Red Bull and its ilk were specifically banned by Teh Roolz of the rehab Gulag wot I was in.  I questioned this on the grounds that it was so foul no-one in their right minds would drink it but it seems that, by definition, us alkies and worthless junkie wasters are not in our right minds.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuaran on 25 April, 2019, 01:54:04 pm
You might have thought that the combination of sugar and caffeine would make this popular with long-distance cyclists.

We are thankfully more discerning than that.
I've had a few Red Bulls during audaxes. I think it is quite effective for keeping going while sleep deprived etc. And more convenient to carry a can in your bag, for the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, when you can't buy a coffee.
Though yes, Monster cans are too big. Don't want that much of a sugar rush at once.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 01:55:56 pm
I don't think the local schoolkids aren't the source of the lager cans that also constitute the other part of my daily litter haul, but who knows, I assume the occasional empty cans of deodorant probably aren't being used on a personal hygiene basis. Ah, behold my joyful bound through the woods. It's rather nice when the kids are on holidays, then it's only booze and cigarettes litter.

In other news, I've never been able to look at, never mind smell, Southern Comfort since the time – many decades ago – it emitted at some velocity through my nose.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 April, 2019, 02:31:27 pm
I have the same problem with gin and tonic, and for the same reason.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rafletcher on 25 April, 2019, 02:53:56 pm
Ah, for me it was Newcastle Brown. It was warm, and the ejaculate was frothy.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: L CC on 25 April, 2019, 04:23:11 pm
I drink Monster on audaxes. It is a meal replacement when you can't face food
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 25 April, 2019, 04:24:19 pm
Our forecourt seems to attract cheap vodka bottles and Red Bull cans. I don't think it's the school kids.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 25 April, 2019, 04:42:33 pm
It was warm, and the ejaculate was frothy.

Now there's an opening line for a book.  :demon:
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 04:49:03 pm
I can plot the littering patterns based around school holidays. Industrial lager cans, full-size cigarette packets, and tobacco pouches are still there during school holidays, only occasional energy drinks. Once the children are back, then it's the motherlode – definite uptick in energy and other sugary drinks, crisp packets, sweet and chocolate wrappers, the (daily) huge Dairy Milk bar wrapper, service stations pasties and other sundries, and Capri Sun pouches. I'm not sure who snorts the aerosols. I'd mind less but a proportion of it is tossed into the trees where it's hard to retrieve. I only pick it up in the woods (two handfuls today and they've been back since Tuesday), the back entrance to the school is rubbish tip, you can chart their progress in discarded plastics. It's more than a bit depressing to be honest, like seeing someone under the age of sixty buying a copy of the Daily Mail (another thing I'd don't understand).
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 April, 2019, 04:59:02 pm
It was warm, and the ejaculate was frothy.

Now there's an opening line for a book.  :demon:
Then the murders began.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Hot Flatus on 25 April, 2019, 05:41:03 pm
If you are absolutely fucked on a 400k at 1am, it's a pretty good pick-me-up as long as you dont mind remaining awake for the following 18 hours.

I dont anymore because I'm unconvinced of the safety of so doing to a tired heart, whilst exercising, at an hour where the body expects to be asleep.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ashaman42 on 25 April, 2019, 06:03:03 pm
I once had two 500ml cans of Monster inside of twenty minutes. I'd been up all night doing an OU assignment, had forty minutes sleep and then gone to work.

I was awake for about ten minutes after drinking them and then spent the rest of the day with everyone thinking I was drunk.

Do. Not. Recommend.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Phil W on 25 April, 2019, 06:09:32 pm
I too tried Redbull just before the overnight section of 400's when I first did them. Haven't touched the stuff for some time.  I now go into overnight audaxes with good sleep in at least the week leading up and rarely get the doozies now.  Certainly on the Arrow last weekend there was no point where I got the dozier. Mind it was bloody freezing so that probably kept me awake.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 07:42:45 pm
Methamphetamine is readily available and I'm sure must taste better.

Personally, I just go to the coffee place and ask for something drastically caffeinated. I actually didn't blink for four entire hours this morning.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 25 April, 2019, 08:57:11 pm
Methamphetamine is readily available and I'm sure must taste better.

Less risk of a sugar crash, but an increased chance of deciding that you'd like to strip down and rebuild your bike several times at the next control...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 25 April, 2019, 10:04:46 pm
Magnetism. I don't get that either. In theory, when explained to me, I do. But then my mind turns all glassy and the explanation slides off.

I have a magnetically levitated globe in my office and every time I look at it, it makes me shiver.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 25 April, 2019, 11:07:01 pm
Magnetism. I don't get that either. In theory, when explained to me, I do. But then my mind turns all glassy and the explanation slides off.

I have a magnetically levitated globe in my office and every time I look at it, it makes me shiver.

From the department of Clarke's third law:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws6AAhTw7RA
https://youtu.be/Ws6AAhTw7RA
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Pingu on 25 April, 2019, 11:30:52 pm
The roads up here are lined with Lucozade, Monster and other type drink containers. No wonder the bears are so stoked.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 25 April, 2019, 11:39:51 pm
Methamphetamine is readily available and I'm sure must taste better.

Less risk of a sugar crash, but an increased chance of deciding that you'd like to strip down and rebuild your bike several times at the next control...

I've seen MAJOR health issues from amphetamines and would avoid.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: barakta on 25 April, 2019, 11:41:24 pm
I quite like the taste of full sugar redbull but haven't drank any in years. I've never drank monster but I know a few people my age who got into it, some of whom have recently acquired a formal diagnosis of ADHD where the silly-caffeine had that paradoxical effect of calming them down and helping them focus...

I have a friend who I first met after he'd drank 3 litres of redbull and was still awake THREE days later, as he had some sign language and it was VERY noisy in that pub, he was signing away at a very rapid pace cos he was in a completely different time sphere to everyone else. He was one of those overworking young geeky men in computing jobs where he frequently worked long hours on whatever nerdiness he did and consumed obscene (as in litres a day at times) energy drinks. A few years later he did ditch the energy drinks after a health scare and only drank normal caffeinated drinks like diet coke...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 25 April, 2019, 11:51:02 pm
Methamphetamine is readily available and I'm sure must taste better.

Less risk of a sugar crash, but an increased chance of deciding that you'd like to strip down and rebuild your bike several times at the next control...

I've seen MAJOR health issues from amphetamines and would avoid.

We were both being tongue-in-cheek - at least, I know I was...  ;)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 25 April, 2019, 11:57:43 pm
Come on Eileen!

I knew you were but the memory of a patient with a sky-high temperature gives me the heeby-jeebies...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 April, 2019, 07:48:35 am
Why does coffee make you poo?  Even a good smell of coffee can trigger the dump valve.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 26 April, 2019, 08:12:48 am
Eating does it with me. Food in, fart out,* sayeth the sage, and what is farting but the war-trumpet of peristalsis? As Robert Herrick put it:

Defecation is the end
Peristalsis doth intend.

It passeth all understanding. Whoop-dee-doo.

* wild bells
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Mr Larrington on 26 April, 2019, 11:32:02 am
My chum Young Master Robert normally eschews caffeine entirely, the freak, but was once attempting the HPV Hour Record on the Opel test track in That Germany.  He had an early mechanical and while the spanner-monkeys were doing surgery on the Mango's innards he drank two cans of Brown Cow.  I'm told he then took off at well above record pace and was still pedalling at 50+ mph as the bike veered off the track, fell in a hole and broke in half.  Just say no, kids.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Chris S on 26 April, 2019, 11:40:39 am
Methamphetamine is readily available and I'm sure must taste better.

Less risk of a sugar crash, but an increased chance of deciding that you'd like to strip down and rebuild your bike several times at the next control...

I've seen MAJOR health issues from amphetamines and would avoid.

Back in the day, I had a short contract working for [REDACTED] who made console games for [REDACTED]. They kept a stash of whiz in the First Aid cupboard, and when it came to deadline time, the devs on the frontline would get stuck into the code-face fully "enabled".

I remember coming into the office one Monday morning and the two guys who sat opposite me were still coding, where I left them on Friday evening. By then, they were pale, wide-eyed, and I swear almost semi-transparent.

I have no idea if their code was any good, but it took them at least a week to recover. Madness.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuzzy on 26 April, 2019, 12:03:56 pm
I don't understand how folk with FOB bass speakers booming out at window rattling volume in the boot of their chavmobiles have any eardrums left.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 26 April, 2019, 12:33:28 pm
I don't understand how folk with FOB bass speakers booming out at window rattling volume in the boot of their chavmobiles have any eardrums left.

Judging by their taste in music, they don't.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 26 April, 2019, 02:18:12 pm
Eating does it with me. Food in, fart out,* sayeth the sage, and what is farting but the war-trumpet of peristalsis? As Robert Herrick put it:
Defecation is the end
Peristalsis doth intend.

It passeth all understanding. Whoop-dee-doo.
* wild bells

The gastro-colic reflex is a well-known physiological Thing.

The cats seem to go outside halfway though their breakfast...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 26 April, 2019, 02:21:37 pm
I don't understand how folk with FOB bass speakers booming out at window rattling volume in the boot of their chavmobiles have any eardrums left.

Nor do I!

Thankfully. there seem to be fewer boom-box cars hereabouts than 15 years ago.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 26 April, 2019, 02:48:23 pm
I wonder if the standing wave being longer than the chavmobile has something to do with it?  I expect the bass is louder *outside* the car.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 26 April, 2019, 03:13:25 pm
I wonder if that has an effect on peristalsis. It's usually shit music.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 26 April, 2019, 03:25:08 pm
I wonder if that has an effect on peristalsis. It's usually shit music.

Mythbusters tested the "brown note" theory back in 2005, and were unable to get Adam Savage to fill the Depends he was wearing for the experiments.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 26 April, 2019, 03:29:17 pm
Beware the brown note! A resonating sphincter is a dangerous territory.

Reminds me, a chavmobile zoomed past me in Streatham the other days, and he'd evidently somehow attached a sound system to the accelerator, so every time he zoomed forward (and he was, of course, of the accelerate and break school of driving) his car went WOOF WOOF WOOOOOOF in a who-let-the-dogs-out fashion.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 April, 2019, 03:31:36 pm
Why do people who play loud music with the car windows rolled down ALWAYS listen to shit music?  It's either rank drum amd bass, some gangsta rapper shouting about how he's gonna pop a cap in yo' monkey ass or appalling dance/soul drivel in the Craig David mould.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 26 April, 2019, 04:01:14 pm
Why do people who play loud music with the car windows rolled down ALWAYS listen to shit music?  It's either rank drum amd bass, some gangsta rapper shouting about how he's gonna pop a cap in yo' monkey ass or appalling dance/soul drivel in the Craig David mould.

I think it's the same social process as sodcasting tinny music from your mobile phone on public transport.  Every now and then you do get someone who's too incompetent to use headphones or showing a video to a friend, just as you do occasionally come across people listening to proper music (or speech) with the car windows open in hot weather.

But the overwhelming majority aren't doing it to listen to the music, they're doing it to dominate the space (possibly out of fear as much as aggression), and the choice of music reflects that.  It's the audio equivalent of manspreading, and it's no coincidence that the perpetrators are overwhelmingly young and male.

I've yet to work out which category tinny music leaking from implausibly loud headphones comes under.

But even as a veteran of ukc.misc, I can't explain the phenomenon of Craig David.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 26 April, 2019, 04:22:15 pm
But even as a veteran of ukc.misc, I can't explain the phenomenon of Craig David.

Best filed under "Things Man Was Not Meant to Know".
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 26 April, 2019, 06:07:18 pm
Why do people who play loud music with the car windows rolled down ALWAYS listen to shit music?  It's either rank drum amd bass, some gangsta rapper shouting about how he's gonna pop a cap in yo' monkey ass or appalling dance/soul drivel in the Craig David mould.

People who like music I might call 'tasteful' (YMMV) usually find no reason to deafen themselves and spoil the music by playing it LOUD.

HTH & HAND

You KNOW I'm middled-aged when...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: SteveC on 26 April, 2019, 06:48:29 pm
I have been known to drive along with the windows open and the radio on full blast with the Ride of the Valkyries on.
(Was out in the middle of the countryside though).

I think we forget how load things have to be to be a sensible level in a car, particularly an old one. I used to be able to hear radio 4 on MrsC's car when she pulled up on the drive and I was in the house.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 April, 2019, 07:40:21 pm
One of my neighbours like to park her car underneath our windows and sit in the car making phone calls with the sound routed through the car speakers. Her conversation are never interesting.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 April, 2019, 08:16:05 pm
But even as a veteran of ukc.misc, I can't explain the phenomenon of Craig David.

Best filed under "Things Man Was Not Meant to Know".
Re- re-wind
The crowd say Bo selecta

WTF?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 26 April, 2019, 08:22:50 pm
But even as a veteran of ukc.misc, I can't explain the phenomenon of Craig David.

Best filed under "Things Man Was Not Meant to Know".
Re- re-wind
The crowd say Bo selecta

WTF?

Exactly, though ITYM "It's proper bo', I tell thee!"
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 26 April, 2019, 09:19:58 pm
One of my neighbours like to park her car underneath our windows and sit in the car making phone calls with the sound routed through the car speakers. Her conversation are never interesting.

Suspect she's like those using the cubicles in the Ladies' facilities in hostelries for agonised calls of a personal nature. Partitions are NOT soundproof...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 26 April, 2019, 11:05:35 pm
Why do people who play loud music with the car windows rolled down ALWAYS listen to shit music?  It's either rank drum amd bass, some gangsta rapper shouting about how he's gonna pop a cap in yo' monkey ass or appalling dance/soul drivel in the Craig David mould.

depends how you define shit music.  Mayber there are those in Ely who object to Led Zep, Chris Rea, or Paul Simon at Land Rover volume with the windows down
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuzzy on 26 April, 2019, 11:33:46 pm
I will admit to occasionally having the volume in the car pumped up to the max.

This is to drown out the voices though.

You know- the ones telling me to kill the inconsiderate bastards driving like twats.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jaded on 26 April, 2019, 11:34:15 pm
Not just ears (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/sep/02/thisweekssciencequestions4)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 April, 2019, 11:37:17 pm
Very low frequencies at high volumes have been investigated by military for battlefield weapon potential.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: essexian on 27 April, 2019, 12:57:58 pm
Things I don't understand include how and indeed why anyone would ever pay full price in Sports Direct.

I've just been in their to look at some new walking shoes only to note that almost everything is half price! Brilliant....  :thumbsup:




Actually, what I don't understand is how they get away with it! Surely that type of marketting is against the law?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jaded on 27 April, 2019, 03:42:23 pm
There’ll be a branch of Sports Direct somewhere in the country where you should never, ever buy anything, on account of the stock costing double what it is everywhere else.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: mattc on 27 April, 2019, 03:53:42 pm
There’ll be a branch of Sports Direct somewhere in the country where you should never, ever buy anything, on account of the stock costing double what it is everywhere else.
Do you think it's in a corner of their warehouse (in some desolate corner of Slough, I'd guess).
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: rafletcher on 27 April, 2019, 05:31:20 pm
Presumably 50% of the RRP if it’s not like the never ending DFS “sale”.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: FatBloke on 27 April, 2019, 06:04:36 pm
I don't understand why I have 5 Smart Superflash rear lights (which I think are brilliant) but all of the rear light mounts on all of my bikes are Cateye. I have a few Cateye rear lights, but where have all the Smart mounts gone???
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ham on 28 April, 2019, 07:49:45 am
I don't understand why anyone invented Belgium. And, before you say beer and chocolate I'd like to point out that they were invented elsewhere but brought to a reasonable point of perfection out of boredom.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Wobbly John on 28 April, 2019, 08:11:35 am
Before we leave energy drinks completely, I don't understand where they get the budget to sponsor so many high-profile, 'extreme sports' events, and two Formula one teams...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: FatBloke on 28 April, 2019, 08:51:28 am
I don't understand why anyone invented Belgium. And, before you say beer and chocolate I'd like to point out that they were invented elsewhere but brought to a reasonable point of perfection out of boredom.
I blame the Dutch!
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: FatBloke on 28 April, 2019, 08:54:59 am
Before we leave energy drinks completely, I don't understand where they get the budget to sponsor so many high-profile, 'extreme sports' events, and two Formula one teams...
Probably something to do with charging £1.40 for 250ml of strong flavoured sugar solution which probably has a production cost of less than 1p per litre. Most likely the contents cost less than the packaging.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: essexian on 28 April, 2019, 09:16:52 am
Other things I don't understand is....and sorry, this may sound elitist but its not meant to.... why people go on TV quiz shows when half the time they struggle to answer a question about their own name  :facepalm:

Tipping Point is the worst for this....okay, why am I watching Tipping Point in the first place... where the questions are so easy that my 5 year old could answer them....and I don't have a five year old.

Is it for the fame of being on telly or for some other reason I don't understand?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jaded on 28 April, 2019, 09:45:25 am
It is good TV. Far better than if they know it all.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: barakta on 28 April, 2019, 12:13:25 pm
I believe it's harder to think under the stress of the cameras etc.

But yes, I don't get TV quiz shows, I don't have a TV licence so I don't watch them except if on at other people's houses and I think they're weird. Friends of mine went on Pointless and seemed to like the attention and the whole experience - weirdos.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 28 April, 2019, 02:05:09 pm
Before we leave energy drinks completely, I don't understand where they get the budget to sponsor so many high-profile, 'extreme sports' events, and two Formula one teams...

Some are niche brands created by Big Soft Drinks.

Mountain Dew is part of PepsiCo. I'm not sure how 'independent' the others are.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ben T on 28 April, 2019, 03:48:18 pm
Magnetism. I don't get that either. In theory, when explained to me, I do. But then my mind turns all glassy and the explanation slides off.

I have a magnetically levitated globe in my office and every time I look at it, it makes me shiver.

(https://dm2302files.storage.live.com/y4pPamRF88hTPHdRyv5Vwu43RXEvvDhFq29RWsrwsAywhVSuTAifWNOTpbrJ9AuAewWAfuEKehCGNDm8T6sWaoAAjn_xUjPT71SIEWNV0zHYsnta_fMzwPSHOsYg4ya2OtU9h7sI3tAzbYvqvP9bffSdvcKIdAKHySptD2uFKB_wAGieGSkqhC_uaVLBTlMrQaR/IMG_7211.jpg?psid=1&width=1110&height=834)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Wobbly John on 12 May, 2019, 09:29:19 am
Just thought of something else I don't understand...

...well, I sort of do, but...

Why do they make round pizzas, sell them in square boxes, yet we eat them in triangles  ???

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 12 May, 2019, 10:03:02 am
Pizzas obey Piethagorean geometry.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hubner on 12 May, 2019, 10:29:17 am
Quote
Why do they make round pizzas, sell them in square boxes, yet we eat them in triangles  ???

 :facepalm:

A ball of dough when rolled out tends to go in a roughly circular shape.

Square boxes are vastly easier to make and fold than a round box.

When dividing a disc, say into 4 equal pieces, you get 4 "triangles" etc.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 12 May, 2019, 11:18:16 am
Magnetism. I don't get that either. In theory, when explained to me, I do. But then my mind turns all glassy and the explanation slides off.

I have a magnetically levitated globe in my office and every time I look at it, it makes me shiver.
magnetism is basically magic and anyone who says they understand it is a liar. Oh, sure, we know how to make it, but unlike electricary which we understand down to molecular level, no one really understands magnets. Quantum fisicist will wave their hands at you as if their explanations make perfect sense, but anyone who tells you with a straight face that a cat is both alive and dead at the same time is obviously not rite in the head and so shouldn’t be trusted with sharp objects let alone an explanation of magic.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 12 May, 2019, 12:05:04 pm
Anyone who's read PTerry's 'Lords And Ladies' knows that the quantum physicists have got it all wrong WRT Schrödinger's infamous thought experiment:

“In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.”
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Wobbly John on 12 May, 2019, 12:18:15 pm
Yes, I understand that. It makes sense, but when you list the shapes it sounds bonkers.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 12 May, 2019, 01:17:27 pm
Like two blokes in a Fiat Uno?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: PeteB99 on 12 May, 2019, 01:25:02 pm
To be honest it would be remarkable if a species of ape that recently evolved on the african savannah could understand quantum mechanics.

We've done well to get this far.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 12 May, 2019, 04:54:26 pm
The savannahs haven't, though.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Pingu on 12 May, 2019, 05:05:14 pm
I don't understand why anyone invented Belgium. And, before you say beer and chocolate I'd like to point out that they were invented elsewhere but brought to a reasonable point of perfection out of boredom.

I thought it was invented by the British to annoy the French.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 May, 2019, 04:48:02 pm
I thought it was the Spanish annoying the Dutch.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jurek on 13 May, 2019, 06:35:56 pm
I don't understand why anyone invented Belgium. And, before you say beer and chocolate I'd like to point out that they were invented elsewhere but brought to a reasonable point of perfection out of boredom.

I thought it was invented by the British to annoy the French.
If you didn't have Belgium, you wouldn't have the saxophone (Nicknack otp may have something to say about that) or Rene Magritte, or Eddy Merxxcxxcxx.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: SteveC on 13 May, 2019, 06:45:58 pm
I'd always wondered about why Belgium until I went there.
It's the Catholic* portion of the Low Countries. The Protestant bit fought the Spanish (the 80 years war) and eventually got independence.
The Catholic bit remained under Hapsburg control for sometime.
I think the current monarchy was first introduced after the fall of Napoleon.

*: there were more Jesuits in what's now Belgium during the Counter-Reformation than in the whole of France. It really was seen as the front line in a religious war.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 14 May, 2019, 05:51:36 am
if you didn't have Belgium then you wouldn't have Heart of Darkness, or Apocalypse Now
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: andytheflyer on 14 May, 2019, 08:02:05 am
I don't understand why anyone invented Belgium. And, before you say beer and chocolate I'd like to point out that they were invented elsewhere but brought to a reasonable point of perfection out of boredom.

I thought it was invented by the British to annoy the French.
If you didn't have Belgium, you wouldn't have the saxophone (Nicknack otp may have something to say about that) or Rene Magritte, or Eddy Merxxcxxcxx.
Indeed, although Adolphe Sax could have been born somewhere else I suppose.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 14 May, 2019, 08:18:25 am
If you didn't have Belgium you wouldn't have chips. Not the sealed kind, the Freedom Fries kind.

Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 May, 2019, 09:10:40 am
if you didn't have Belgium then you wouldn't have Heart of Darkness, or Apocalypse Now
Although the Congo wasn't Belgian, it was Leopold's personal backyard, and genocidal maniacs get born all over the world.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: orienteer on 14 May, 2019, 10:30:09 am
After doing dirty jobs my fingernails get dirt underneath so I clean them with any convenient pointy object. What I don't understand is why, despite not doing any further dirty work, they turn black again within hours.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuzzy on 14 May, 2019, 11:06:08 am
If we didn't have Belgium, we wouldn't have Belgian Beer!

The Horror!
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 14 May, 2019, 11:29:17 am
If we didn't have Belgium, we wouldn't have Belgian Beer!

The Horror!

It would probably mean that, depending on the historical breaks, southern Dutch or northern French beer would be more interesting instead.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: pcolbeck on 14 May, 2019, 11:32:39 am
After doing dirty jobs my fingernails get dirt underneath so I clean them with any convenient pointy object. What I don't understand is why, despite not doing any further dirty work, they turn black again within hours.

The only way to clean my fingernails properly is to wash my hair I have found. Or an old fashioned nail brush but that's painful !
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 14 May, 2019, 11:35:35 am
I quite like Belgium. Admittedly, they go to bed early, as we discovered earlier this year when trying to eat in Mechelen at 9pm.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: PaulF on 14 May, 2019, 11:56:00 am
I quite like Belgium. Admittedly, they go to bed early, as we discovered earlier this year when trying to eat in Mechelen at 9pm.

Mechelen :( You have my sympathy
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 14 May, 2019, 12:07:15 pm
It's not so bad, we found a nice bar in the end and drank some excellent beers into the early hours.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: PaulF on 14 May, 2019, 12:17:36 pm
I used to be there every month so rather exhausted its charms.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 14 May, 2019, 12:21:08 pm
It's the sort of place that fills an evening, provided you don't plan a late night. I learned about the minuscule size of beaver testicles from a noticeboard at the zoo, which was a big plus.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 14 May, 2019, 12:31:00 pm
After doing dirty jobs my fingernails get dirt underneath so I clean them with any convenient pointy object. What I don't understand is why, despite not doing any further dirty work, they turn black again within hours.

The only way to clean my fingernails properly is to wash my hair I have found. Or an old fashioned nail brush but that's painful !

Washing dishes by hand is quite effective.
Muck will build up under the nails if you scratch your head, back or elsewhere...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 14 May, 2019, 12:33:33 pm
Sounds like you're not biting your nails properly...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Paul on 14 May, 2019, 12:39:38 pm
After doing dirty jobs my fingernails get dirt underneath so I clean them with any convenient pointy object. What I don't understand is why, despite not doing any further dirty work, they turn black again within hours.

The only way to clean my fingernails properly is to wash my hair I have found. Or an old fashioned nail brush but that's painful !

Washing dishes by hand is quite effective.
Muck will build up under the nails if you scratch your head, back or elsewhere...
My mum used to tell me off for scratching my elsewhere.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 14 May, 2019, 12:45:12 pm
Only your elsewhere? Lucky lad! I was chided for scratching anywhere!
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 14 May, 2019, 12:52:41 pm
I'll make a site report from Belgium in June, let you know if it's improved at all.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Legs on 14 May, 2019, 01:18:44 pm
After doing dirty jobs my fingernails get dirt underneath so I clean them with any convenient pointy object. What I don't understand is why, despite not doing any further dirty work, they turn black again within hours.

The only way to clean my fingernails properly is to wash my hair I have found. Or an old fashioned nail brush but that's painful !
It's also the best way of smoothing off the sharp snaggy bits you get left with when you've just cut your nails.  Either that, or rubbing them against jeans.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 14 May, 2019, 03:03:55 pm
After doing dirty jobs my fingernails get dirt underneath so I clean them with any convenient pointy object. What I don't understand is why, despite not doing any further dirty work, they turn black again within hours.

The only way to clean my fingernails properly is to wash my hair I have found. Or an old fashioned nail brush but that's painful !

Kneading pastry does it quite efficiently. It's also good for removing the stains left by Sugru.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 14 May, 2019, 03:45:50 pm
Remind me to not eat one of your pies or pastries. :hand:
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 15 May, 2019, 09:40:29 am
How do cat hairs end up on my desk at work?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 15 May, 2019, 09:43:34 am
Hairs, hairs are everywhere!

Transferred from your shoes, bags or clothing, probably baggage.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 15 May, 2019, 09:43:38 am
Judging by our Moggie's ability to get hers everywhere, I'm sure you'll probably find them lurking in inter-galactic space.  Your desk is peanuts in comparison
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 15 May, 2019, 10:59:14 am
How do cat hairs end up on my desk at work?

Same way as dog-hairs end up in my lunch.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 15 May, 2019, 11:54:36 am
How do cat hairs end up on my desk at work?

Same way as dog-hairs end up in my lunch.

And the Kim-hairs in rower40's pedal bearings.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 15 May, 2019, 12:04:40 pm
Judging by our Moggie's ability to get hers everywhere, I'm sure you'll probably find them lurking in inter-galactic space.  Your desk is peanuts in comparison

So what you are saying is that cosmic strings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory) are actually pet hairs, then?  :demon:
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jurek on 15 May, 2019, 12:04:47 pm
How do cat hairs end up on my desk at work?

Magnets.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 15 May, 2019, 12:50:43 pm
Judging by our Moggie's ability to get hers everywhere, I'm sure you'll probably find them lurking in inter-galactic space.  Your desk is peanuts in comparison

So what you are saying is that cosmic strings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory) are actually pet hairs, then?  :demon:


Perhaps, as a grand unified theory of everything.  I think pet hair escape physics, alongside bistromathematics will be the next challenge after getting  quantum electrodynamics to function properly in a gravitational field.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: nicknack on 15 May, 2019, 04:59:12 pm
I don't understand why anyone invented Belgium. And, before you say beer and chocolate I'd like to point out that they were invented elsewhere but brought to a reasonable point of perfection out of boredom.

I thought it was invented by the British to annoy the French.
If you didn't have Belgium, you wouldn't have the saxophone (Nicknack otp may have something to say about that) or Rene Magritte, or Eddy Merxxcxxcxx.
Well, of course. It's the sort of place that I might consider moving to if the prospect of moving didn't fill me with horror. The small country next door would be fine also (not Luxetc. in case you were wondering). The beer is possibly not the main attraction but it certainly helps.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 15 May, 2019, 10:08:19 pm
By a weird coincidence I seem to be currently watching a film in Flemish. That’s a first for me  :-)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 15 May, 2019, 10:09:28 pm
Not so much beer going down - they seem to prefer coke in Antwerp  ;)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 15 May, 2019, 10:20:44 pm
Not so much beer going down - they seem to prefer coke in Antwerp  ;)

I've observed plenty of Belgians with no taste.... ;)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: eckagain on 15 May, 2019, 10:33:41 pm
You know those wee sachets of mayo, ketchup whatever you get in upmarket (to me) eateries like Beefeater etc? Why do they have (seemingly) random numbers printed beside the serrated bit where you're meant to tear them open?
And no, I don't think it's meant to estimate the number of attempts you would need to open them.
What does The Team think?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 15 May, 2019, 10:36:18 pm
Batch number so they know which minimum-wage oik to blame when you die of ketchup poisoning.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jaded on 16 May, 2019, 12:24:20 am
By a weird coincidence I seem to be currently watching a film in Flemish. That’s a first for me  :-)
Always wanted to got to Flemish. What's it like?


(OK, I'm a good liar..)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 16 May, 2019, 07:56:49 am
It’s very Belgian, in a Dutch-ish way :-)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 16 May, 2019, 08:04:46 am
(https://lowres.cartooncollections.com/group_suicide-suicide_pact-flemings-lemmings-rodent-animals-PB400631_low.jpg)

Look behind the URL.

Another thought is that without Belgium we wouldn't have Bond James Bond.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ham on 16 May, 2019, 08:50:43 am
And come to think of it, we wouldn't have had "In Bruges" either.

Quote
A great day this has turned out to be. I'm suicidal, me mate tries to kill me, me gun gets nicked and we're still in fucking Bruges.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Pingu on 16 May, 2019, 09:08:30 am
Or a Paul Simon song.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 16 May, 2019, 10:22:01 am
Or a Paul Simon song.

Or an Elton John song
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Gattopardo on 22 May, 2019, 12:25:35 pm
And come to think of it, we wouldn't have had "In Bruges" either.

Quote
A great day this has turned out to be. I'm suicidal, me mate tries to kill me, me gun gets nicked and we're still in fucking Bruges.

Midgets?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Gattopardo on 22 May, 2019, 12:28:13 pm
To re ignite the red bull comments, vodka and red bull are great, so is gin and red bull, whiskey and red bull not so much.  Wasn't it a phase for a while to consume these sugary caffeinated drinks to be able to drink more and still feel not as drunk?

Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 22 May, 2019, 12:33:32 pm
To re ignite the red bull comments, vodka and red bull are great, so is gin and red bull, whiskey and red bull not so much.  Wasn't it a phase for a while to consume these sugary caffeinated drinks to be able to drink more and still feel not as drunk?

No, it was to be able to drink more and get even more drunk than would be possible otherwise.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Edd on 22 May, 2019, 12:39:13 pm
To re ignite the red bull comments, vodka and red bull are great, so is gin and red bull, whiskey and red bull not so much.  Wasn't it a phase for a while to consume these sugary caffeinated drinks to be able to drink more and still feel not as drunk?

I have a friend who likes to buy rounds of Jagerbombs [shudder]. I'm pretty sure mixing alcohol with high caffeine energy drinks is banned in some countries because of the health risks of mixing stimulants with depressants.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Gattopardo on 22 May, 2019, 12:42:12 pm
To re ignite the red bull comments, vodka and red bull are great, so is gin and red bull, whiskey and red bull not so much.  Wasn't it a phase for a while to consume these sugary caffeinated drinks to be able to drink more and still feel not as drunk?

No, it was to be able to drink more and get even more drunk than would be possible otherwise.

Ah spend more money.....



I have a friend who likes to buy rounds of Jagerbombs [shudder]. I'm pretty sure mixing alcohol with high caffeine energy drinks is banned in some countries because of the health risks of mixing stimulants with depressants.

Doesn't that even it out ;)

What happened to drinking espresso with a shot of grappa?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 22 May, 2019, 02:24:07 pm
Sitting in Caffe Nero the other day, my eye was drawn to a sign proclaiming ESPRESSO AND TONIC.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 22 May, 2019, 02:25:10 pm
Sitting in Caffe Nero the other day, my eye was drawn to a sign proclaiming ESPRESSO AND TONIC.


 :sick: :jurek:
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 22 May, 2019, 03:47:41 pm
Espresso with a shot of grappa is a Cafe Corretto (correcting coffee) and is partiucalrly helpful before work, it seems. I honeymooned on Sicily and would regularly see Italian gents at the coffee shop on their way to teh office with a large something as we made our mid-morning break.

I think I tried it once or twice, and approved, but I was on holiday.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 22 May, 2019, 04:10:45 pm
Sitting in Caffe Nero the other day, my eye was drawn to a sign proclaiming ESPRESSO AND TONIC.

Goes well with a nice dish of peaches and carrots.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 22 May, 2019, 05:03:43 pm
Sitting in Caffe Nero the other day, my eye was drawn to a sign proclaiming ESPRESSO AND TONIC.

Goes well with a nice dish of peaches and carrots.

Peaches and carrots would be fine in both sweet and savoury dishes.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 22 May, 2019, 05:09:12 pm
Not sure about peaches in savoury dishes - it's not something I've ever come across - but apricots in a curry or tagine is most definitely a thing.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 22 May, 2019, 05:28:21 pm
Not sure about peaches in savoury dishes - it's not something I've ever come across - but apricots in a curry or tagine is most definitely a thing.

Well quite!
Peaches don't have a very strong flavour and would hardly be noticed. Pineapple in many savouries is definitely A Thing.

I have bulked up meat stews with dead fruit without complaint.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ham on 22 May, 2019, 05:35:20 pm
I do a variant on a Waldorf salad with peach, celery and walnut, very nice it is, too.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 May, 2019, 08:25:50 pm
"What's a Waldorf anyway? A walnut that's gone off?"
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jurek on 22 May, 2019, 08:45:35 pm
I do a variant on a Waldorf salad with peach, celery and walnut, very nice it is, too.

Much as I'm not overfond of Waldorf salad, that sound's really good.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 22 May, 2019, 08:53:57 pm
"What's a Waldorf anyway? A walnut that's gone off?"

It's what you put in a salad when you've used up all of Statler.  :demon:
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Basil on 22 May, 2019, 08:55:24 pm
"Sorry. We're fresh out of waldorfs"
Basil Fawlty
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ham on 22 May, 2019, 09:26:07 pm
It does cause some strange looks, but it is actually a rather nice combo. Do bear in mind that I've been making it for ... oh my ....  close to 50 years, and it was probably a sight more innovative when I first served it. Thinking back, I started off using tinned peaches. Ring the changes with proportions of Mayo, yoghurt, lemon, lime juice, don't overcomplicate.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Wobbly John on 29 June, 2019, 03:54:24 pm
Things I don’t understand: advertisements - You interrupt something I am enjoying with exaggerated claims (or sometimes just irrelevant singing/dancing) about a product I don’t want, and some how you think this will encourage me to desire it?
How do you expect that to work?
I mentally blacklist things I see advertising for!
However, I suspect it might be the end of civilisation if everyone did the same...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 30 June, 2019, 05:11:05 pm
Why some ointments are aerated and some aren't. Marketing ploy?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 30 June, 2019, 05:42:09 pm
I don't think I've had any aerated ointments but my use of all skin potions is scant.

I know cheap 'ice cream' is >50% gas by volume, which makes it bulky, cheap, fairly low-calorie & low-sugar and useful as a 'float' in hot drinks.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: jsabine on 30 June, 2019, 11:41:59 pm
I know cheap 'ice cream' is >50% gas by volume, which makes it bulky, cheap, fairly low-calorie & low-sugar and useful as a 'float' in hot drinksminging.

FTFY

HTH, HAND, etc etc
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 30 June, 2019, 11:52:31 pm
I know cheap 'ice cream' is >50% gas by volume, which makes it bulky, cheap, fairly low-calorie & low-sugar and useful as a 'float' in hot drinksminging.

FTFY

HTH, HAND, etc etc

I must confess to quite liking Sainsbury's Soft Scoop foam but hating Walls' offering.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 01 July, 2019, 01:28:52 pm
Why some ointments are aerated and some aren't. Marketing ploy?


It would be genius if they then also claim to have antioxidants within  :-D
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 01 July, 2019, 01:33:14 pm
I'm sure it's a dastardly plot to keep them oozing while you anoint yourself.

But yes, that too.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2019, 01:46:02 pm
I must confess to enjoying the Iron Lady's contribution to the world of ice cream.

On a loosely related note, taps (and indeed showers) that purport to save water/energy by either mixing air with the stream, or outputting a needle-fine spray that looks the part, but fails to achieve the stated aim of supplying the user with a sufficiency of the old dihydrogen monoxide.  This becomes readily apparent when you come to fill a glass, rinse your hair or whatever.

There's a Rule According To Kim about happiness being measured in litres per minute...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 01 July, 2019, 01:56:53 pm
I'm not convinced by fruit in salads if it's not a literal fruit salad (which I'll allow). I did make a coronation chicken salad once with mango which was nice initially, but I found it a bit much half-way through. Admittedly I do make salad mountains.

Anyway, hardback books. I don't understand those. I'm re-reading some older stuff from pre-ebook days that's been slowly mouldering in the garage. Much as I understand my arm muscles have likely atrophied from only having to support a Kindle or iPhone, hardback is a thoroughly impractical format. They're too heavy, difficult to handle, hard to navigate, and not even vaguely portable, and you were charged a premium for this sheer impracticality.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 01 July, 2019, 10:35:52 pm
Hardback books sometimes stay open on a desk without the need to break the binding.

Paperback music scores can be a PITA for the player if they have to fight a self-closer.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuzzy on 01 July, 2019, 11:07:16 pm
But, come the Zombieapocolypse, a hard back book clutched to the chest will probably have a better bullet/ sharps stopping effect against marauding survivalists than a Kindle or Kobo. Plus it'll cook your food or heat your water better than a burning eBook.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 01 July, 2019, 11:29:55 pm
Another advantage of dead-tree books is that they aren't vulnerable to the following:

Quote
Anyone who bought ebooks through the Microsoft Store is in for a rude shock in the coming days. The good news? You can get a refund. The bad news? All of your books are going to be deleted this month (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4497396/books-in-microsoft-store-faq).

Microsoft announced in April that it would stop selling ebooks and that any books the company already sold would stop working in early July because the DRM servers were being shut off. Yes, you read that correctly. Those books that you “bought” are going to disappear. Even the “free” books that you downloaded through Microsoft will be deleted.

https://gizmodo.com/ebooks-purchased-from-microsoft-will-be-deleted-this-mo-1836005672

You may well say that anyone who bought an eBook from MicroSith deserves no sympathy, but it's the general principle of the thing.

If, say, Waterstones closes my local branch, at least all the books I bought there won't be teleported to the recycling box overnight before its emptied...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2019, 11:40:59 pm
Hardback books sometimes stay open on a desk without the need to break the binding.

And can be a bit more sturdy than a cheap paperback for reading in bed...


Quote
Paperback music scores can be a PITA for the player if they have to fight a self-closer.

OTOH, like the ergonomics of reading in bed, this is a problem best solved by modern technology.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2019, 11:48:35 pm
Another advantage of dead-tree books is that they aren't vulnerable to the following

That's not a dead tree thing, that's a lack of DRM thing.  A better analogy is that if you take out a library book, you're deluding yourself if you think they're going to let you keep it.  Same goes for DRMed media[1]: At best you're placing your bets on a company staying in business (or releasing their keys as abandonware when the time comes), at worst you're signing up to an exploitative subscription model.  Don't think the Great Publishing Corporations of Ursa Minor wouldn't encrypt paper books if they thought you could do the maths in your head to read them, instead they have to resort to tactics like persuading academics to use their latest edition as the course text.

DRM is evil and should be eschewed, but unencumbered[2] ebooks are awesome.  (Yes, I'm also a luddite who still buys music on CD because it's a non-proprietary format and comes with a free read-only backup.)


[1] And, for that matter, any product that requires a third-party internet service to operate.
[2] Calibre (https://calibre-ebook.com/) is your friend.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: bludger on 02 July, 2019, 12:01:43 am
I used to use calibre but have found that actually you can just email mobibuckrt and pdf files to your kindles email address, no need to mess around with USB cables and synchronisation or whatever.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2019, 12:02:00 am
Yeahbut I think you're missing the point there, Kim. DRM can't exist in printed format. It can exist in physical digital format, as in DVDs which will only play in certain parts of the world, but ink on paper (or scratches in clay, say) is there forever and you can read it after it's gone out of copyright etc etc. 
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2019, 12:13:21 am
Yeahbut I think you're missing the point there, Kim. DRM can't exist in printed format.

Of course it can, it's all just digital data.  It's just that the customers wouldn't accept a paper book that they had to decrypt (either by hand, or more practically by inputting it into a computer somehow to do the heavy lifting), so if you want to sell paper books you have no choice but to do it in plaintext, expecting that it will get read many times, and you price your products accordingly.

On the other hand, if you sell them a fondleslab with a *CLICKY FOR TEH BOOKS* button, they'll click on it and get so absorbed in reading about the Dancing Pigs that they won't consider that it might disappear in three years time, or require a $0.20 monthly subscription to keep reading, or be unable to lend it to a friend or whatever.  A lot of very slick marketing has gone into public acceptance of this sort of thing.  To the point where people routinely think that copyright infringement is theft...


DVDs regions are more akin to printing books in FOREIGN languages:  They're still playable by anyone, it's just that the industry has tried (and largely failed) to made it difficult to obtain a DVD player that won't refuse to play other regions' discs.  I suppose the book equivalent would be publishers trying to restrict language lessons, which demonstrates the disproportionate power of big business armed with new proprietary technology and government lobbyists.

I suppose the main difference between DRM and proprietary analogue formats (I'm thinking NTSC/PAL, VHS/Beta, various widths of tape and RPMs of vinyl and so on) is that each different format came at substantial cost to the manufacturers, whereas with DRM they can slice up the market simply by generating a new set of encryption keys.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2019, 12:23:51 am
If you were having to input it into a computer then it wouldn't, in effect, be a printed book. And if you had to decrypt it by hand (head?), like a paper Rosetta stone or a pig pen code or something, then how would that be reliant on DRM? I don't think we're talking about the same sort of paper here, as I can't see how the marks on a piece of paper can be made to disappear or alter at the will of some copyright holder.
To the point where people routinely think that copyright infringement is theft...
And think that it's infringement of copyright just to mention a character name that's been used in a book, film, or whatever, or to put a brand name into a story.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2019, 12:40:38 am
If you were having to input it into a computer then it wouldn't, in effect, be a printed book. And if you had to decrypt it by hand (head?), like a paper Rosetta stone or a pig pen code or something, then how would that be reliant on DRM? I don't think we're talking about the same sort of paper here.

I think you're confusing software (the Mona Lisa, Sgt Pepper, Goldfinger, The Bible, this post) and hardware (paper and ink, silver and cellulose, magnetised oxides, grooves or pits in a piece of clay or plastic, charges in a flash memory circuit, bases in a DNA strand), and assuming that since machine-readable formats make cryptography practical at a level that's almost transparent to the user, that impractical combinations couldn't exist.

I could, at least in principle, sell you a book of gibberish that you could painstakingly decode by comparing it to a key I send you by subscription every week in disappearing ink[1].  And then lobby the government to make pens and photocopiers and whatever illegal, in the hope of preventing you from keeping or distributing a copy of the key, or the decrypted text.  That's basically DRM.  It's just a lot easier to hide the absurdity of it when you do it with computers (you probably didn't even notice your computer decrypting this text, for example).

DRM isn't a Mission Impossible style tape that will self destruct in 10 seconds.  It's that you always have to phone a friend to find out what the words in the book mean while you're reading it, because they only publish it in Klingon.


[1] Points to anyone who can come up with a example of such a system being used commercially (rather than for military communications or espionage or whatever) from the days before modern telecommunications.  I bet someone's done it.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2019, 01:05:04 am
That would be RM without the D. But even if I had to spend several lifetimes working out what it meant, I would still have the printed gibberish – whereas what Microsoft have done, IIUIC, is that you no longer have anything.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2019, 01:10:35 am
That would be RM without the D. But even if I had to spend several lifetimes working out what it meant, I would still have the printed gibberish – whereas what Microsoft have done, IIUIC, is that you no longer have anything.

Well that would be an even shittier implementation than usual (but, ultimately, not that different from how this conversation is being stored).

Ah, it's classic Microsoft - they didn't even bother to produce an ebook reader, just made you read things through some website with I-can't-believe-it's-not-Internet-Explorer or something.  No wonder it wasn't a commercial success.


(And no, printed text is still digital data.  It's using a discrete alphabet, and the a-ness of an 'a' doesn't change if it's a bit blurry or badly kemed.)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2019, 01:15:20 am
Well, no one's promising this conversation will be around for ever. But if anyone cared to print it out, they wouldn't expect the printed paper to disappear when the server explodes or Roger kicks us out for not using smileys or something. Whether it would make sense is a separate question and probably not worth answering even if it's worth asking...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2019, 01:26:26 am
Yeah, that sort of encryption technology has completely appropriate uses.  Protecting your financial transactions from teh 1337 h4xx0rz, or whatever.  It's just evil to use it to sell people book-reading licences when they think they're buying a book.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 02 July, 2019, 08:38:38 am
If you were having to input it into a computer then it wouldn't, in effect, be a printed book. And if you had to decrypt it by hand (head?), like a paper Rosetta stone or a pig pen code or something, then how would that be reliant on DRM? I don't think we're talking about the same sort of paper here, as I can't see how the marks on a piece of paper can be made to disappear or alter at the will of some copyright holder.
To the point where people routinely think that copyright infringement is theft...
And think that it's infringement of copyright just to mention a character name that's been used in a book, film, or whatever, or to put a brand name into a story.
Easy.

Hash the marks on the paper. Make them readable via spectacles that 'decode' the marks into plain text. The spectacles don't need to be connected to 'the cloud', just running firmware that is basically a form of DRM.
Update the firmware to make the marks unreadable.

Boom.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 02 July, 2019, 09:15:46 am
Why spectacles, they could operate on your eyes to print DRM enable them. In fact, there's an entire range of visual services they could enable for a monthly subscription. This, my friends, is the future.

I don't have an issue with standard paperbacks, they solved the weighty hardback problem (don't get me going on trade paperbacks). Their spines are designed to be broken. I don't trust paperbacks with an unbroken spine, there's something off, and the owner probably hasn't read them. Admittedly, if it's Twilight or the Further Adventures of Dan Brown, that's probably not a bad thing.

To be fair to Microsoft, they had six customers and three of those signed up accidentally, and one was a cat. And they did return the money. The issue, of course, is that they didn't really have to do anything. DRM is crap, I'm not sure why some businesses haven't realised: you can find any book, piece of music, or film for free if you really want. To be fair to Amazon, Apple etc. it's usually the licence holders (or at least the management of those entities) that had pushed the issue.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2019, 10:20:20 am
Perhaps the Voynich Manuscript was an early attempt at non-D RM?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2019, 11:32:00 am
you probably didn't even notice your computer decrypting this text, for example).
Now, that's a thing I do think about, precisely because I don't notice it and don't understand how it happens. It's like a "realization" process, converting that text or whatever from "potential" to "reality". It's there all the time but might as well not be, sort of thing.

Ed: I suppose this could also be framed in terms of knowledge v perception, or belief v experience.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Mr Larrington on 02 July, 2019, 01:19:20 pm
My Kindle has its wifi permanently off so I can use Calibre to set titles etc to be consistent across series instead of some random variation a low-echelon publidroid has plucked out of the æther.  Yes, it's a faff having to download to a Babbage-Engine first but it satisfies my inner spod and, via the medium of Apprentice Alf's DeDRM plugin, strips out the annoyingness that the Mega-Global Big River Corporation of Seattle, USAnia imposes on us like income tax and shit Saturday night television.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 July, 2019, 01:22:09 pm
(And no, printed text is still digital data.  It's using a discrete alphabet, and the a-ness of an 'a' doesn't change if it's a bit blurry or badly kemed.)
Hadn't spotted this last night. Yeah, good point. But perhaps DRM should more accurately be called ERM?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 02 July, 2019, 01:24:28 pm
Looking at another thread around here...




Bitcoin, and definitely the discussion surrounding it.






I love the whooshing sound something makes when it goes right overhead. ;)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 02 July, 2019, 01:36:46 pm
(And no, printed text is still digital data.  It's using a discrete alphabet, and the a-ness of an 'a' doesn't change if it's a bit blurry or badly kemed.)
Hadn't spotted this last night. Yeah, good point. But perhaps DRM should more accurately be called ERM?

Well the maths really doesn't care what the substrate you use to perform the calculations is.  I think that's an important point that's worth hanging onto[1], because while we 20th century earthlings still think digital electronics is pretty neat, the rules are the same if your computer (in the Turing completeness sense) is Kathrine Johnson with a slide rule, an Intel i7, a collection of hydraulic logic gates, an ethereal being moving rocks in a desert (https://xkcd.com/505/), ants following pheremone trails, specially-engineered bacteria jibbling about with DNA, those glowing optical cube things from Star Trek or something quantum that I never really managed to get my head round properly.

As Dijkstra put it: "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."


[1] If only on the bad science makes bad law principle.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: pcolbeck on 02 July, 2019, 04:46:02 pm
Toolboxes, the metal kind with slide out draws. Why are they so expensive? They are right up there with lampshades as things who's price is astronomical compared to what any sane person would think they should be. A Snap-On one is thousands and even a Sealy or Halfords one is £300+. They are just thin pressed steel sheet and some draw sliders for heaven sake.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ham on 02 July, 2019, 05:09:45 pm
Surely the pertinent question is, how come we've all grown to expect to be able to buy things for flumpence ha'penny? Or, at least, for less than the cost of the raw materials in the UK.

The price range is massive (https://www.machinemart.co.uk/c/new-tool-chests-and-cabinets/?s=pricehighlow&p=9), the more expensive ones are easily understood from the perspective operations needed to create one. I suspect they are low volume items rather than mass market, and if made from 14 gauge or similar would be time consuming.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 02 July, 2019, 05:40:29 pm
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Landrover Disco 3, Range Rover Sport - I'd taken my car to get a quote for scraping and waterproofing the underside. The guy told me £4700 to change the timing belt on a RR Sport, they're practically worthless.  Mine on the other hand, he was quite complimentary about.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 02 July, 2019, 08:13:52 pm
Why isn't there some sort of pocket clip on the Apple Pencil?

It asking to get lost/misplaced.

Maybe Apple like it that way...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 02 July, 2019, 08:27:40 pm
I have never actually ever used one of those clips.


I lose a lot of pens though  :-D
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 02 July, 2019, 08:28:28 pm
So you can buy a clip, of course. Accessorization is, after all, next to godliness. Well, it gets you the opportunity to photobomb a selfie of the Divine Eminence.

I have a notepad that turns my doodles and scribbles into pictures, but that uses some brand of pen that you can pick up in any stationery shop for a couple of pounds (and it works on normal paper).
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: jsabine on 03 July, 2019, 07:09:13 am
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Presumably it's just traditional car manufacturing - you suspend a random part in the air, then build the rest of the car around it. Here it's the timing belt, for the Citroën DS it was the parking brake pads ...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 03 July, 2019, 07:21:58 am
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Landrover Disco 3, Range Rover Sport - I'd taken my car to get a quote for scraping and waterproofing the underside. The guy told me £4700 to change the timing belt on a RR Sport, they're practically worthless.  Mine on the other hand, he was quite complimentary about.

Sounds like the Dyane we had in the early 70s. The instructions for adjusting the tappets began "while it is possible to adjust the tappets without removing the mudguards...".  What they meant was practically impossible without. They were held by 16 screws, and you had to disconnect the headlamp adjustment cable & power cables first.  Setting the points meant taking the front bumper off & removing the fan with a drift.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Tim Hall on 03 July, 2019, 07:45:41 am
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Presumably it's just traditional car manufacturing - you suspend a random part in the air, then build the rest of the car around it. Here it's the timing belt, for the Citroën DS it was the parking brake pads ...
There was a viral ad thing a few years ago for the Triumph Speed Triple ( I think) about how it was made.
Scene: Close up of hand holding a small cube
"First we start with this - the centre of gravity"
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 03 July, 2019, 07:53:49 am
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Landrover Disco 3, Range Rover Sport - I'd taken my car to get a quote for scraping and waterproofing the underside. The guy told me £4700 to change the timing belt on a RR Sport, they're practically worthless.  Mine on the other hand, he was quite complimentary about.

Sounds like the Dyane we had in the early 70s. The instructions for adjusting the tappets began "while it is possible to adjust the tappets without removing the mudguards...".  What they meant was practically impossible without. They were held by 16 screws, and you had to disconnect the headlamp adjustment cable & power cables first.  Setting the points meant taking the front bumper off & removing the fan with a drift.

Yebbut, if that was anything like the 2CV, you could take it apart and rebuild with not much more than a 19mm socket and screwdrivers.

The A-series engine on my metro was dead easy to work on, as long as you had articulating arms to get into the spaces
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ElyDave on 03 July, 2019, 07:55:38 am
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Presumably it's just traditional car manufacturing - you suspend a random part in the air, then build the rest of the car around it. Here it's the timing belt, for the Citroën DS it was the parking brake pads ...
There was a viral ad thing a few years ago for the Triumph Speed Triple ( I think) about how it was made.
Scene: Close up of hand holding a small cube
"First we start with this - the centre of gravity"

I'm not convinced that's the prime concern of a RR Sport
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 03 July, 2019, 08:09:16 am
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Landrover Disco 3, Range Rover Sport - I'd taken my car to get a quote for scraping and waterproofing the underside. The guy told me £4700 to change the timing belt on a RR Sport, they're practically worthless.  Mine on the other hand, he was quite complimentary about.

Sounds like the Dyane we had in the early 70s. The instructions for adjusting the tappets began "while it is possible to adjust the tappets without removing the mudguards...".  What they meant was practically impossible without. They were held by 16 screws, and you had to disconnect the headlamp adjustment cable & power cables first.  Setting the points meant taking the front bumper off & removing the fan with a drift.

Yebbut, if that was anything like the 2CV, you could take it apart and rebuild with not much more than a 19mm socket and screwdrivers.

The A-series engine on my metro was dead easy to work on, as long as you had articulating arms to get into the spaces
Ah, the delights of A-series engine maintenance. Who can forget giving up on trying to install that stupid little rubber hose while the cylinder head was still on.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuzzy on 03 July, 2019, 08:47:20 am
Whereas, with my Triumph Spitfire (Achtung! to his friends), accessing everything was easy. Undo two bonnet clips, lift bonnet, park arse on wheel and beaver away.

All cars should be made this way.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 July, 2019, 08:55:00 am
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Presumably it's just traditional car manufacturing - you suspend a random part in the air, then build the rest of the car around it. Here it's the timing belt, for the Citroën DS it was the parking brake pads ...
There was a viral ad thing a few years ago for the Triumph Speed Triple ( I think) about how it was made.
Scene: Close up of hand holding a small cube
"First we start with this - the centre of gravity"
I always look for that in all my bikes. Then at the bottom of a big hill, I take it out, stow it under a hedge and pick it up on the way back. What's more difficult is removing my own centre of gravity...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 03 July, 2019, 12:02:48 pm
why you would design a car to need the body taking off and engine out to change the timing belt?

Presumably it's just traditional car manufacturing - you suspend a random part in the air, then build the rest of the car around it. Here it's the timing belt, for the Citroën DS it was the parking brake pads ...
There was a viral ad thing a few years ago for the Triumph Speed Triple ( I think) about how it was made.
Scene: Close up of hand holding a small cube
"First we start with this - the centre of gravity"
I always look for that in all my bikes. Then at the bottom of a big hill, I take it out, stow it under a hedge and pick it up on the way back. What's more difficult is removing my own centre of gravity...

That seems unwise.  If some scrote runs off with it, your bike will float away as soon as you stop riding it.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 July, 2019, 12:14:07 pm
My party trick is to take my own out and float around like a helium balloon.  ;D
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 03 July, 2019, 04:56:40 pm
I don't think you guys are in Kansas any more.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Wobbly John on 03 July, 2019, 08:51:10 pm
There was a viral ad thing a few years ago for the Triumph Speed Triple ( I think) about how it was made.
Scene: Close up of hand holding a small cube
"First we start with this - the centre of gravity"

Close, but no banananana - https://youtu.be/T2QFxoDHU9o
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 July, 2019, 10:29:34 pm
I don't think you guys are in Kansas any more.
Are we in Seattle?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 04 July, 2019, 08:51:46 am
Insomnia?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuzzy on 04 July, 2019, 09:21:09 am
Women :-\
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 04 July, 2019, 09:22:16 am
Insomnia?
Seattle = the Emerald City. I'm not sure why.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 04 July, 2019, 09:27:22 am
Insomnia?
Seattle = the Emerald City. I'm not sure why.

Presumably, because the area is rather green (or was before they concreted over), being (originally) temperate rainforest.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 04 July, 2019, 09:48:32 am
Insomnia?
Seattle = the Emerald City. I'm not sure why.

Ah. I did not know that.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 04 July, 2019, 10:34:26 am
I don't think it's anything to do with the Wizard of Oz though.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 04 July, 2019, 04:36:11 pm
More likely to do with the quantity of rain it receives every year, just like the Emerald Isle.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 July, 2019, 08:21:56 am
I don't understand asteroids. I thought they were lumps of rock orbiting the sun, but apparently they can collide with planets. So I probably don't understand meteorites either, as I thought they were lumps of rock zooming around which occasionally crashed into planets.
Quote
“We have ample evidence that asteroids repeatedly hit planets in the solar system and they do catastrophic damage when they do,” he said in the video, recorded for the Science Museum as part of its celebration of Lovelock’s career.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/26/james-lovelock-at-100-asteroids-humanity-gaia-theory-ai
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Pingu on 26 July, 2019, 08:38:39 am
I don't understand asteroids. I thought they were lumps of rock orbiting the sun, but apparently they can collide with planets. So I probably don't understand meteorites ...

Quote from: that Wikipedia that they have nowadays
A meteorite is a solid piece of debris from an object, such as a comet, asteroid, or meteoroid, that originates in outer space and survives its passage through the atmosphere to reach the surface of a planet or moon.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: pcolbeck on 26 July, 2019, 09:04:01 am
I don't understand asteroids. I thought they were lumps of rock orbiting the sun, but apparently they can collide with planets. So I probably don't understand meteorites either, as I thought they were lumps of rock zooming around which occasionally crashed into planets.

Asteroids do indeed orbit the sun. Orbits aren't perfect circles though they are ellipses. It's possible for either the elliptical orbit of an asteroid and a planet to intersect at some point in time then you get an asteroid crashing into a planet or the asteroids orbit brings it close enough to a planet for the planets gravity to capture the asteroid and bring it spiralling in. Orbits of small bodies dont remain regular either they get nudged all the time by interaction with larger bodies so sometimes they get nudged into the path of a planet.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 26 July, 2019, 11:20:22 am
Basically the solar system is a lot less clockwork (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem) than the traditional lies-to-children model would suggest.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 26 July, 2019, 01:08:56 pm
Yarp. For your average asteroid, the Solar System is an n-body problem.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 26 July, 2019, 01:22:05 pm
Basically the solar system is a lot less clockwork (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem) than the traditional lies-to-children model would suggest.
I’d categories the model given to children is s simplification with the basics being reasonably accurate and certainly contains enough detail to be a sufficient to fill the minds of most of them. Those that want more will find that the detail becomes very complicated very quickly and can provide hours of fun or a fulfilling career, but for the rest it is more than ample.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 26 July, 2019, 01:25:08 pm
Basically the solar system is a lot less clockwork (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem) than the traditional lies-to-children model would suggest.
I’d categories the model given to children is s simplification with the basics being reasonably accurate and certainly contains enough detail to be a sufficient to fill the minds of most of them. Those that want more will find that the detail becomes very complicated very quickly and can provide hours of fun or a fulfilling career, but for the rest it is more than ample.

Yes, that's what lies-to-children means.  Think Conventional Current, or the Bohr model of the atom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 26 July, 2019, 02:08:09 pm

Yes, that's what lies-to-children means.  Think Conventional Current, or the Bohr model of the atom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
TLDR: but I will do when I get on holibobs because it looks like an interesting topic. I’ll be interested to know if they consider it a good thing™ or a bad one.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: caerau on 26 July, 2019, 04:59:54 pm
Unless you want to start bringing in quantum theory and quantum electrodynamic wavefunctions and the concomitant complex mathematics involving complex numbers, advanced matrix representations and/or multiple integral calculus to describe atomic orbitals and then fill them with electrons (and that's really AFTER the truly arcane realm of atomic nuclei) - to children at the age of 6 or whatever - it's potentially a little advanced at age 16 :) - I would suggest it's *essential* rather than a good thingTM :P
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 26 July, 2019, 07:17:31 pm
I doubt you can get very far into double figures without realising that your understanding of most things is superficial, and that SCIENCE in particular thrives on "turns out that it's a bit more complicated than that".

...But if you can, there may be a place for you as a cabinet minister.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Gattopardo on 26 July, 2019, 08:55:40 pm
DARK MATTER....or is it DARK ENERGY.  I'm not sure which.

Asteroids and other bits of space stuff work by magic. 
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 26 July, 2019, 09:36:21 pm
Dark matter and dark energy are different things. But neither exist, so don't worry too much, it'll all become clear in the end.

Cool random facts about atoms, gold is gold coloured because its valence electrons have a relativistic velocity (so absorb blue/UV and thus appear gold/yellow) and it's also unreactive for the same reason (faster = heavier, so the inner shell electrons are pulled into towards the nucleus). The only other gold metal is caesium (for the same reason).

Special relativity also explains why mercury is a liquid.

All descriptions of quantum mechanics are really just that – workable descriptions in a similar way to Bohr's atom. Just ask Alice and Bob.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 July, 2019, 10:22:36 am
I don't understand asteroids. I thought they were lumps of rock orbiting the sun, but apparently they can collide with planets. So I probably don't understand meteorites either, as I thought they were lumps of rock zooming around which occasionally crashed into planets.

Asteroids do indeed orbit the sun. Orbits aren't perfect circles though they are ellipses. It's possible for either the elliptical orbit of an asteroid and a planet to intersect at some point in time then you get an asteroid crashing into a planet or the asteroids orbit brings it close enough to a planet for the planets gravity to capture the asteroid and bring it spiralling in. Orbits of small bodies dont remain regular either they get nudged all the time by interaction with larger bodies so sometimes they get nudged into the path of a planet.
Thanks!
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 July, 2019, 10:24:40 am
I doubt you can get very far into double figures without realising that your understanding of most things is superficial, and that SCIENCE in particular thrives on "turns out that it's a bit more complicated than that".

...But if you can, there may be a place for you as a cabinet minister.
Definitely not just science. The only certainty is uncertainty. Probably.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: essexian on 28 July, 2019, 09:09:03 am
As part of my plan to rule the World, I was thinking of transport issues and the building of HS4 to the West County and Wales (although after their independence, the new line won’t actually cross the newly rebuilt Offa’s Dike which the Welsh paid for). My plan is to pull down the National Library (after all who needs books anymore) and to build a new station there; selling off Paddington for the building of a people’s fun palace dedicated to me

Which got me thinking of a way to transport people across the massive site which would be the New Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross station, after all it would be far too far to walk given all the riches my rule will bring to the people. My remedy would be rolling roads as described by Isaac Asimov.

While this is a brilliant idea, it took some thinking regarding how on and off ramps would work as there was an issue to be solved concerning transferring from the on ramp onto the normal running lane. I worked out that this would require people to stand on the right of the normal running lane if the road was to run on the left as normal in the UK. 

All of this got me thinking….why do we stand on the right on escalators in London?     
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Jurek on 28 July, 2019, 09:18:27 am
Most people's dominant hand is the one on the right. Better for holding on to the handrail.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: essexian on 28 July, 2019, 09:43:55 am
Most people's dominant hand is the one on the right. Better for holding on to the handrail.

Oh.. that seems very likely but I was hoping for something more exciting like being the hand a sword is normally held in so best keep it away from someone who has just pushed in.... ;D
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 28 July, 2019, 10:12:48 am
Most people's dominant hand is the one on the right. Better for holding on to the handrail.

That's how they do it here, so after Brexit BOris will probably change it.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 28 July, 2019, 11:34:40 am

Which got me thinking of a way to transport people across the massive site which would be the New Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross station, after all it would be far too far to walk given all the riches my rule will bring to the people. My remedy would be rolling roads as described by Isaac Asimov.
Point of order m’lord
I believe it was Heinlein who first posited the rolling roads.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: essexian on 28 July, 2019, 12:43:23 pm

Which got me thinking of a way to transport people across the massive site which would be the New Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross station, after all it would be far too far to walk given all the riches my rule will bring to the people. My remedy would be rolling roads as described by Isaac Asimov.
Point of order m’lord
I believe it was Heinlein who first posited the rolling roads.

You are quite right: in the piece: "Roads must roll." Blimey, it must be 30 years since I last read that!

I guess I was misguided by my recent re-reading of the excellent "Caves of Steel" by the said Asimov. Indeed, if you look at the Wiki picture here you will see such a road... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caves_of_Steel#/media/File:Galaxy_195310.jpg
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 28 July, 2019, 02:21:46 pm
Caves of Steel is indeed an excellent. Ok and the first outing of Elijah Baley if memory serves.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 28 July, 2019, 02:24:14 pm
I re-read that series recently.  It's aged better than I expected.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Zipperhead on 28 July, 2019, 06:59:15 pm
Which got me thinking of a way to transport people across the massive site which would be the New Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross station, after all it would be far too far to walk given all the riches my rule will bring to the people. My remedy would be rolling roads as described by Isaac Asimov.

There was a Never Stop Railway (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/03/28/wembleys-experimental-never-stop-railway-line/) at Wembley in 1925. Don't go falling onto the "track"...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Basil on 28 July, 2019, 07:09:42 pm
Which got me thinking of a way to transport people across the massive site which would be the New Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross station, after all it would be far too far to walk given all the riches my rule will bring to the people. My remedy would be rolling roads as described by Isaac Asimov.

There was a Never Stop Railway (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/03/28/wembleys-experimental-never-stop-railway-line/) at Wembley in 1925. Don't go falling onto the "track"...
Reminds me of the paternoster lifts at Aston University.
https://youtu.be/Ma4Vnk5Rn8I
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 28 July, 2019, 07:34:54 pm
There was a Never Stop Railway (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/03/28/wembleys-experimental-never-stop-railway-line/) at Wembley in 1925. Don't go falling onto the "track"...

Vague childhood memories of boarding a monorail in a similar manner at some Disney establishment or other.  It wasn't powered by a giant whisk, thobut.

I have less vague childhood memories of riding the NPH Paternosters.  One of my big regrets was never getting round to going on the Sheffield uni ones.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: davelodwig on 28 July, 2019, 07:42:16 pm
Which got me thinking of a way to transport people across the massive site which would be the New Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross station, after all it would be far too far to walk given all the riches my rule will bring to the people. My remedy would be rolling roads as described by Isaac Asimov.

There was a Never Stop Railway (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/03/28/wembleys-experimental-never-stop-railway-line/) at Wembley in 1925. Don't go falling onto the "track"...
Reminds me of the paternoster lifts at Aston University.
https://youtu.be/Ma4Vnk5Rn8I

We had the paternosters at UCE in Perry Barr still in 2000.

Great larks were had, some that would upset H&S professionals.

D.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 28 July, 2019, 07:50:35 pm
There was a Never Stop Railway (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/03/28/wembleys-experimental-never-stop-railway-line/) at Wembley in 1925. Don't go falling onto the "track"...

Vague childhood memories of boarding a monorail in a similar manner at some Disney establishment or other.  It wasn't powered by a giant whisk, thobut.

I have less vague childhood memories of riding the NPH Paternosters.  One of my big regrets was never getting round to going on the Sheffield uni ones.

Coo!

Something where I've outdone Teh Kim!

Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 28 July, 2019, 08:03:07 pm
I’ve used the Essex Uni Paternoster and was surprised at my nervousness in boarding it. I’m glad I did though because they were planning on removing it as part of a big library improvement programme. There was some resistance by a group of the old guard academics (including Dr B’s supervisor) though I don’t know if they succeeded in having it left in service.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: andytheflyer on 28 July, 2019, 09:10:44 pm
Had them at Leeds when I was there 72-75 - in the Charles Morris Hall at the end of the Admin/Physics/Earth Sciences corridor, and also in the Lecture Theatre block IIRC.  Didn't think anything of them then, just used them - but your timing had to be good.  If they were crowded going one way, we got on the other side and either went over the top or round the  bottom.  Bit scary first time, but no-one got crushed!.  What's Health and Safety?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: pcolbeck on 28 July, 2019, 09:30:43 pm
Used to be one at Newcastle Uni when I was there in the early 80s. Think its gone now though.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 July, 2019, 07:10:31 pm
Most people's dominant hand is the one on the right. Better for holding on to the handrail.

That's how they do it here, so after Brexit BOris will probably change it.
Yebbut it might be one of the things you got from here, like your left-hand railways.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 01 August, 2019, 10:46:30 am
Why developers can't write intelligible sentences for normal humans.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: spesh on 01 August, 2019, 11:28:47 am
Why developers can't write intelligible sentences for normal humans.

Methinks the infinite monkeys theorem applies.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: PeteB99 on 01 August, 2019, 11:41:42 am
Why developers can't write intelligible sentences for normal humans.

Define 'normal' in the context of humans.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: ian on 01 August, 2019, 12:03:31 pm
Stuff that I can understand. Like if I ask a question that really requires a 'yes, it can' or 'no, it can't' answer', one of those two. Not a paragraph of guff. I don't need to know it's an attribute of a field so la-la-la. Come on, you can surely do binary? Yes? No?

Of course, if the bloody API document was well written, I wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 01 August, 2019, 01:26:03 pm
The standard rule is if it can you’ll get a short coherent response in the positive, if it can’t then said developers will need to tell you why it can’t and what else it can do to mitigate the missing feature. Years of writing in code will however rendered the coder responsible for communication outside the team somewhat challenged in human speak.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Feanor on 01 August, 2019, 01:39:32 pm
I expect the answer is not a Yes or No.
It will be a 'It Depends".

Perhaaps yes in some circumstances, perhaps no in others.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 01 August, 2019, 01:52:02 pm
Or as PP would put it, yes no maybe.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: matthew on 01 August, 2019, 02:04:11 pm
Or as PP would put it, yes no maybe.

Ian asked for binary not fuzzy logic
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: TheLurker on 01 August, 2019, 07:53:53 pm
Quote from: ian
Why developers can't write intelligible sentences for normal humans.

Quote from: ian
Of course, if the bloody API document was well written...

I believe we have been around this particular mulberry bush before.  :)

Brief answer.  It's hard to convert difficult to understand technical information into "plain" English when you know how much understanding of the area your audience has.  It is even harder to do this when you have no idea what your target audience knows.  It becomes harder still when your Project Manager is squealing about delays in the creation of code and isn't prepared to let you spend as much time as is needed on the documentation.  Good documentation requires as much, sometimes more, effort than the code.  The result of this is that devs. just say "Fuck it!" and throw the bare minimum over the wall.

I suggest you find the relevant Project Managers, invite them back to the Asbestos Palace for cheese and wine and then threaten to set the BEARS onto them unless and until they agree to let the Devs write decent documentation.  I have some spare PMs that could usefully be subjected to this therapy should you wish to conduct a trial run.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Beardy on 02 August, 2019, 11:58:54 am
As a former project manager I feel that I must point out that I can only work within the budget set by the client and the client nearly always complains that the estimate is too high and wants things cut. The documentation doesn’t affect the running of the software, so the client doesn’t see why they should pay for it. Testing is often the next casualty in this discussion. My reluctance to change my stance on these issues is why I didn’t climb further up the slippery pole.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 02 August, 2019, 12:45:17 pm
I suggest you find the relevant Project Managers, invite them back to the Asbestos Palace for cheese and wine and then threaten to set the BEARS onto them unless and until they agree to let the Devs write decent documentation.  I have some spare PMs that could usefully be subjected to this therapy should you wish to conduct a trial run.


"Let" the Devs? Getting they buggers to put in the odd comment in their code (other than "Jim says this can't happen but..." & "Helen is a null pointer assignment") would be a start.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuzzy on 02 August, 2019, 10:48:54 pm
Or as PP would put it, yes no maybe.

Ian asked for binary not fuzzy logic
Oi! Leave me out of this.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Ben T on 02 August, 2019, 11:26:24 pm
Stuff that I can understand. Like if I ask a question that really requires a 'yes, it can' or 'no, it can't' answer', one of those two. Not a paragraph of guff. I don't need to know it's an attribute of a field so la-la-la. Come on, you can surely do binary? Yes? No?

Of course, if the bloody API document was well written, I wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

It can, but if they say yes, they know you're probably going to expect it to do it, and are going to come back and complain to them when it doesn't, which they suspect will be because you've supplied the wrong inputs.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 17 September, 2019, 12:56:24 pm
Why, in such maps as are found in GPS devices, on Google Maps, on OpenStreetMap and practically every other mapping service, the name of every wretched field is given at every resolution below 1:25000 but you have to fiddle with the zoom before the names of towns will appear.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 17 September, 2019, 12:58:49 pm
Why, in such maps as are found in GPS devices, on Google Maps, on OpenStreetMap and practically every other mapping service, the name of every wretched field is given at every resolution below 1:25000 but you have to fiddle with the zoom before the names of towns will appear.

Typesetting algorithms are hard.

Map labels are an order of magnitude harder.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: hellymedic on 17 September, 2019, 01:04:01 pm
Why, in such maps as are found in GPS devices, on Google Maps, on OpenStreetMap and practically every other mapping service, the name of every wretched field is given at every resolution below 1:25000 but you have to fiddle with the zoom before the names of towns will appear.

Typesetting algorithms are hard.

Map labels are an order of magnitude harder.

A few years ago 'Copenhagen' disappeared from several layers of Google Maps zoom...
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Kim on 17 September, 2019, 01:10:46 pm
Why, in such maps as are found in GPS devices, on Google Maps, on OpenStreetMap and practically every other mapping service, the name of every wretched field is given at every resolution below 1:25000 but you have to fiddle with the zoom before the names of towns will appear.

Typesetting algorithms are hard.

Map labels are an order of magnitude harder.

A few years ago 'Copenhagen' disappeared from several layers of Google Maps zoom...

My favourite is zooming in on little villages in the midlands and discovering a field labelled "Great Britain".
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 17 September, 2019, 02:41:03 pm
Why, in such maps as are found in GPS devices, on Google Maps, on OpenStreetMap and practically every other mapping service, the name of every wretched field is given at every resolution below 1:25000 but you have to fiddle with the zoom before the names of towns will appear.

Typesetting algorithms are hard.

Map labels are an order of magnitude harder.

Except that it's not a matter of typesetting but of flagging city/town/village/landmark/field/whatever labels by importance.

I think that everyone cribbed from the same database, that database got it wrong (or had different priorities from real people) and nobody could be arsed writing a quick SQL command to fix it.

Actually, I libelled Google above: they've got rid of the field names but they still rather point you at a pizzeria than tell you what town it's in.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2019, 02:50:19 pm
Well that's understandable. The pizzeria is paying to be listed in Google maps, the town isn't.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 17 September, 2019, 03:32:35 pm
Great for all those folk living in Domino Pizzaville.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2019, 03:36:33 pm
Yes. But that's the consequence of commercial free-at-point-of-use mapping. IGN?
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 17 September, 2019, 04:14:48 pm
The IGN has geoportail.fr, but although it can show a hell of a lot of data it's a bit lame - it tends to hang if you ask it to do too much too fast (e.g. to zoom in on somewhere then change from photographic to cartographic display.  I used to use it quite a bit when I was planning routes, but Google integrates searching and maps better, and doesn't hang.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Phil W on 17 September, 2019, 04:29:26 pm
Why, in such maps as are found in GPS devices, on Google Maps, on OpenStreetMap and practically every other mapping service, the name of every wretched field is given at every resolution below 1:25000 but you have to fiddle with the zoom before the names of towns will appear.

Typesetting algorithms are hard.

Map labels are an order of magnitude harder.

A few years ago 'Copenhagen' disappeared from several layers of Google Maps zoom...

My favourite is zooming in on little villages in the midlands and discovering a field labelled "Great Britain".

It's where all the Brexiteers are going to live surrounded by a fence with keep the fuck out painted on it.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Phil W on 17 September, 2019, 04:34:46 pm
As a former project manager I feel that I must point out that I can only work within the budget set by the client and the client nearly always complains that the estimate is too high and wants things cut. The documentation doesn’t affect the running of the software, so the client doesn’t see why they should pay for it.

Then the software doesn't do what they were expecting, and there's no documentation for them to read, to make sense of it.  They therefore can't sort it out themselves. So they need to ring your service team. Then they find out a service contract with you is 20% of the original development cost.  Then they find out that is payable every year they want support.  Then the client goes fuck it, and shoots themselves in the foot anyway, to match the situation they are now in.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 17 September, 2019, 04:52:22 pm
As a former project manager I feel that I must point out that I can only work within the budget set by the client and the client nearly always complains that the estimate is too high and wants things cut. The documentation doesn’t affect the running of the software, so the client doesn’t see why they should pay for it.

Then the software doesn't do what they were expecting, and there's no documentation for them to read, to make sense of it.  They therefore can't sort it out themselves. So they need to ring your service team. Then they find out a service contract with you is 20% of the original development cost.  Then they find out that is payable every year they want support.  Then the client goes fuck it, and shoots themselves in the foot anyway, to match the situation they are now in.

We haven't got the time to read the error messages so we just hit ENTER until they go away.

or

- We got an error message and although we keep hitting return it won't go away.
- What does it say?
- I don't know, nobody reads those things.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: cycleman on 17 September, 2019, 06:36:54 pm
The main problem of Google maps for me is the lack of definition between public and private lanes. Is there a lane though there or is it a farm track?.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2019, 08:09:31 pm
Good point. They could do with some better shading or colour coding system, or something like that. Maybe just not marking farm tracks unless they're actually also public rights of way (but I suppose that would involve Google paying for access to definitive maps or something like that.)
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: fuaran on 17 September, 2019, 08:12:58 pm
Why, in such maps as are found in GPS devices, on Google Maps, on OpenStreetMap and practically every other mapping service, the name of every wretched field is given at every resolution below 1:25000 but you have to fiddle with the zoom before the names of towns will appear.
I think that's specifically a French thing. Most of the government Cadastre data has been imported into OSM. That includes all of the fields, land use, building outlines, but doesn't have town names. And seems France is lacking in OSM contributors, may not have much other data from people who actually live there.
Also most OSM styles are fairly generic, designed to look nice worldwide, so they may not be so useful in particular countries.
Title: Re: things i don't understand
Post by: T42 on 18 September, 2019, 08:21:44 am
Could well be.  I've even noticed a difference in detail between Alsace and the rest of France, so I suspect that some residual Germanic obsession with exactitude prevails.