Author Topic: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race  (Read 2494 times)

ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« on: 19 May, 2015, 08:13:09 am »
Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but i couldn't find a definitive answer.

I'm about to buy a 'proper' GPS unit for  bike race from Flanders to Istanbul, [i've had mixed results from Bryton and Garmin edge units], and I can't make up my mind whether and Etrex 20 or 30 is better than a 62s? Here's my questions in no particular order:

Should I be worried that I can't disable the auto rerouting on the Etrex? I have to produce my own route for this race, could rerouting cause issues. I've been warned by some competitors that it's a bad idea.
Can the etrex take the battery pack like the 62/64 and allow me to charge it via my hub driven USB-Werx 5v charger and cache battery?
I'll be using OSM and i'm covering Belgium to Istanbul, is either of the units better for this?

I do prefer the smaller form of the Etrex and it will fit nicely on the bike, but i could make the 62/64 fit too.

Sorry for the newbie questions.

321up

  • 59° N
Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #1 on: 19 May, 2015, 09:47:11 am »
We use an etrex30 and it does sometimes fail to follow the specified route so I also display the route in track format concurrently so I can visually check that it's routing the way I intended.  We also use Viewranger with an XTE alarm set to give us an audible warning if we go off route (battery life is usually sufficient for 200km in flight mode).  The advantage one a 64st is that it will charge NiMH batteries in the device, presumably from a usb charging device.  I gather that the edge series are less reliable then the etrex, and even the etrex will crash occasionally.  The phone running viewranger is more reliable than our etrex, but if you want to navigate using viewranger with the screen on then battery life and charging is an issue.  So we use the two devices concurrently.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #2 on: 19 May, 2015, 10:24:25 am »
I never ask my GPS device to create a route.
I'm the one with the brain, I do that.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #3 on: 19 May, 2015, 10:36:23 am »
Just to clarify:

That's the problem; I have created the routes and I don't want the gps to auto reroute if I deviate from the route for any reason or if it decides to.

I'm not going to use the gps to choose my route for me. Some models allow the auto reroute to be disabled and that is my question, 'should i be worried about that and et it nfluence my purchase decision or not?'.

I will also be using an Android phone with offline maps as a second device but not on the bars, thanks for the link to viewranger, it's a new one on me, i've been using ridewithgps.

I guess hat creating a route on the same mapping structure as the gps is essential, ie: not using Google maps to create the route then converting to a gpx and adding to the handheld unit with OSM on it?

Cheers

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #4 on: 19 May, 2015, 03:05:26 pm »
I'm not going to use the gps to choose my route for me. Some models allow the auto reroute to be disabled and that is my question, 'should i be worried about that and et it nfluence my purchase decision or not?'.

It's certainly a serious omission, that the Etrex 20/30 doesn't offer this among the 'setup routing' options.
However if you're not going to use the gps in that way (not routing on the gps, instead following a pre-planned route) - then it doesn't matter at all.   And in this mode it doesn't matter much about map mismatches when you create the route either (there might be a bit more processing going on but I don't think anyone has found this to be an issue).  Any prompts you see will take their cues (eg road names) entirely from the map you have in the gps, and not at all from the map you planned with.

On such a major project, I might consider the slighly larger screen of the 62 an advantage, but I doubt if I would really want such a large thing on my handlebars, and the Etrex probably has better battery runtime.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

321up

  • 59° N
Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #5 on: 20 May, 2015, 05:37:35 am »
Just to clarify:

That's the problem; I have created the routes and I don't want the gps to auto reroute if I deviate from the route for any reason or if it decides to.

I'm not going to use the gps to choose my route for me. Some models allow the auto reroute to be disabled and that is my question, 'should i be worried about that and et it nfluence my purchase decision or not?'.

I will also be using an Android phone with offline maps as a second device but not on the bars, thanks for the link to viewranger, it's a new one on me, i've been using ridewithgps.

I guess hat creating a route on the same mapping structure as the gps is essential, ie: not using Google maps to create the route then converting to a gpx and adding to the handheld unit with OSM on it?

Cheers

In that case just create the route in track format (not route format) and follow it visually as a breadcrumb trail (but the etrex won't give you prompts in this mode).  On the etrex the track format file is displayed unaltered so you can trust that it is what you intended.  I only use follow route so the etrex will give prompts but it's not infallible and I would not trust it to route unless I also have a track format version of the route displayed concurrently to check against as I go along (if it gets the routing wrong I just ignore it and follow the track).  Having prompts is handy at night so the backlight comes on at junctions (mostly! sometimes it does not prompt when a turn is required into a minor road).  I think the etrex supports a greater number of track points then an edge series.  My only experience with garmin devices is the etrex30.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #6 on: 20 May, 2015, 06:44:40 am »
The method I would use is to build many Routes on Mapsource. They would have a Waypoint at the Start and another at the finish. Between there would be loads of Viapoints. These are points which don’t appear in the Waypoint list, but are used by the unit to generate the Route.

Each Route will have 2 Waypoints. The machine can handle 10,000 Viapoints, so if the whole trip is split into 20 Routes, you will use 40 Waypoints total and up to 500 Viapoints in each Route.

It is a back-breaking task to construct the Routes, but with a Viapoint just after EVERY junction in each route, HOW can the Garmin go wrong?

PPPPPP.

Being Routes, you will get bleep prompts.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #7 on: 20 May, 2015, 10:18:20 am »
I'm sorry, I don't think that's correct. 
I think each Route will still be subject to the 250-point limit (including Waypoints and Via points) - or 50 points if you are asking the GPS to generate the Route (which the OP is not).
But I haven't soak-tested an E30 so I'm open to correction backed up by proof (such as a big GPX that is known to work).

I would use Routes primarily (probably with Tracks available for extra information) - in 'direct' or 'off road' mode.  Routes used in this mode will give (rather basic) prompts at each intermediate point, but are not subject to recalculation.  (Though they can still short-cut if the Route turns back on itself - unlikely on a Flanders-Istanbul ride.)
You basically use one point per turn/instruction, which, crossing Europe, 250 points would get you a very long way - at least 500km in central Europe.  I would use one Route per planned day (you can store up to 50) and in that way each Route is unlikely to use much more than 100 points, some will be a lot less, I have Routes across central France that only require 12 or so points for a long day's riding. 

Or you can use Tracks and navigate them using the E30's 'Where To' menu - this gives a good line to follow but lacks the prompts.

Be sure to name each Route and Track clearly, so that you can find the one you want easily in the menus - I would start each name with a day number eg 01-Luxembourg, 02-Basel, etc.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #8 on: 20 May, 2015, 12:25:33 pm »
I'm sorry, I don't think that's correct. 
I think each Route will still be subject to the 250-point limit (including Waypoints and Via points) - or 50 points if you are asking the GPS to generate the Route (which the OP is not).
But I haven't soak-tested an E30 so I'm open to correction backed up by proof (such as a big GPX that is known to work).

I would use Routes primarily (probably with Tracks available for extra information) - in 'direct' or 'off road' mode.  Routes used in this mode will give (rather basic) prompts at each intermediate point, but are not subject to recalculation.  (Though they can still short-cut if the Route turns back on itself - unlikely on a Flanders-Istanbul ride.)
You basically use one point per turn/instruction, which, crossing Europe, 250 points would get you a very long way - at least 500km in central Europe.  I would use one Route per planned day (you can store up to 50) and in that way each Route is unlikely to use much more than 100 points, some will be a lot less, I have Routes across central France that only require 12 or so points for a long day's riding. 

Or you can use Tracks and navigate them using the E30's 'Where To' menu - this gives a good line to follow but lacks the prompts.

Be sure to name each Route and Track clearly, so that you can find the one you want easily in the menus - I would start each name with a day number eg 01-Luxembourg, 02-Basel, etc.

You are probably correct. I've search back through some archive and found a 168 point route. 2 Waypoints and 166 Viapoints. I used it with Metroguide with no autorouting. Extra Viapoints were inserted at prominent bends in the road and at complex junctions to make the 'join-the-dots' route look like it followed the road.
I had Topo GB and metroguide in those days and the route was from Cherbourg to Evreux. Just over 250 km.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #9 on: 20 May, 2015, 12:44:33 pm »
I'm sorry, I don't think that's correct. 
I think each Route will still be subject to the 250-point limit (including Waypoints and Via points) - or 50 points if you are asking the GPS to generate the Route (which the OP is not).
But I haven't soak-tested an E30 so I'm open to correction backed up by proof (such as a big GPX that is known to work).

I would use Routes primarily (probably with Tracks available for extra information) - in 'direct' or 'off road' mode.  Routes used in this mode will give (rather basic) prompts at each intermediate point, but are not subject to recalculation.  (Though they can still short-cut if the Route turns back on itself - unlikely on a Flanders-Istanbul ride.)
You basically use one point per turn/instruction, which, crossing Europe, 250 points would get you a very long way - at least 500km in central Europe.  I would use one Route per planned day (you can store up to 50) and in that way each Route is unlikely to use much more than 100 points, some will be a lot less, I have Routes across central France that only require 12 or so points for a long day's riding. 

Or you can use Tracks and navigate them using the E30's 'Where To' menu - this gives a good line to follow but lacks the prompts.

Be sure to name each Route and Track clearly, so that you can find the one you want easily in the menus - I would start each name with a day number eg 01-Luxembourg, 02-Basel, etc.

Frankie, this is exactly what I was hoping someone could answer. Perfect, thank you.

I'll go with the Etrex and use a track and a route in either of the 2 modes you sugest.

One last question, how do i display a track and follow a route at the same time? Or am i confused again?

Thank you every one for your help so far.

Fraser

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #10 on: 20 May, 2015, 01:43:11 pm »
One last question, how do i display a track and follow a route at the same time? Or am i confused again?

That's simple:  For every track stored in the unit, there's a toggleable "show on map" option (and selection of colours).  This causes the track to be drawn on the map, and is independent of any navigation that's in progress.  So you make the track visible, and navigate the route.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #11 on: 20 May, 2015, 03:25:26 pm »
That's simple:  For every track stored in the unit, there's a toggleable "show on map" option (and selection of colours).  This causes the track to be drawn on the map, and is independent of any navigation that's in progress.  So you make the track visible, and navigate the route.

Great thank you.
 All i need to know now is the best place to create my route...

My workflow so far has been:
Google maps in driving mode avoiding tolls and highways - im wanting 'A' roads as this is a race
URL Into GPSvisualizer to create a gpx, But then what??? I had been using a Bryton so was just uploading the gpx to their website and syncing it with my device.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #12 on: 20 May, 2015, 04:32:59 pm »
One last question, how do i display a track and follow a route at the same time? Or am i confused again?
That's simple:  For every track stored in the unit, there's a toggleable "show on map" option (and selection of colours).  This causes the track to be drawn on the map, and is independent of any navigation that's in progress.  So you make the track visible, and navigate the route.

Unfortunately on the E30 (and I think all newer Garmins) the default option is "don't show on map" (or "hide on map" as the menu has it).  This is quite a stong default so that, even if you've set a Track to 'show' in advance of your trip, after a couple of power cycles it may well have reverted to 'hidden'.
In other words it's another part of the daily routine, to make sure the Track(s) you want to see in the background is set to 'show'.  (The colour, however, is sticky so once set up, all you'll have to do is toggle the 'show' option.)
The end result is somewhat similar to this, a Route being navigated with a coloured Track also showing:
(NB older Etrex, and NB this screenshot shows follow road mode, not off-road)


As an update to
I think each Route will still be subject to the 250-point limit (including Waypoints and Via points) - or 50 points if you are asking the GPS to generate the Route (which the OP is not).
But I haven't soak-tested an E30 so I'm open to correction ...
I've now done that soak test and can confirm that if you load a 260-point Route into the E30, the last 10 points are discarded and you can only navigate to the 250th point (in off-road), and in follow road you get a 50 points warning followed by a minor crash.  This is the same as the older models (apart from the crash).
The end of a 260-point 'route' as viewed in Mapsource:

The end of the same route on the E30 GPS screen:


But then what??? I had been using a Bryton so was just uploading the gpx to their website and syncing it with my device.

You can just connect the E30 to your PC in USB mode, and copy the GPX file into the [E30]\Garmin\GPX\  folder, or (safer, actually) into the equivalent folder on the SD card.  After disconnecting and rebooting the E30, you should find all your Routes, Tracks and Waypoints under the 'Where To?' menu.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #13 on: 20 May, 2015, 08:02:06 pm »
If you create your route in RWGPS it exports as a Route or a Track. You'll need to check the Route Point limit manually though.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #14 on: 21 May, 2015, 11:19:57 am »
If you create your route in RWGPS it exports as a Route or a Track. You'll need to check the Route Point limit manually though.


How do you know when you run the eport what it's going to be? Route or Track? Are the filename extensions different? I've a feeling i'm being thick again.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #15 on: 21 May, 2015, 11:22:10 am »
Got it. And I was being thick.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #16 on: 21 May, 2015, 11:53:37 am »
Last question I hope...

Which route mapping tool is the most reliable and reasonably intuative in peoples experience?

I've been using Google Maps, RWGPS, bikeroutetoaster and gpsvisualizer for conversion but are there any others that I should be considering?

Can I convert a track into a route with cue points auto magically anywhere? Sorry that's another question.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #17 on: 21 May, 2015, 12:20:29 pm »
I use RWGPS. I was a beta testa (sorry) for the android app so have premium for free, and it's definitely worth it at that price. It means I can d/l the route and maps onto my phone as an emergency back up. For my workflow I just click click click (and can streetview junctions if required, as I go) then export it. I have a (now very retro) Etrex Legend HcX which I got 2nd hand from frankie and use basecamp to automagically reduce the number of Trackpoints. That Trackpoint limit (500) takes me to about 400km- if it's not too fussy a route. Complex routes with lots of junctions and turnings will be shorter, or 500 Trackpoints loses too much detail. I've never had to reduce Routepoints as the Trackpoint limit curtails the route enough that I'm always OK.
Mostly I'm creating a route from a routesheet and will have and use that routesheet as I ride- being on the back of the tandem I do the navigating but I'm not doing the driving so we can put up with a certain amount of inaccuracy on any GPS as it's merely the belt to the braces of the routesheet. For DIYs there's no routesheet but there's a much higher likelihood I pretty much know the road anyway. I don't bother with the beeping off course and lighting up for junctions business, in the dark I've got bugger all to do but watch the route and GPS so we rarely miss turnings in the dark and my backlight's on all the time anyway (I run it off a work freebie cheap little external battery).
You should, with the garmin plugin, be able to send directly from RWGPS to your device.

Converting Tracks to Routes isn't so straightforward.

Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #18 on: 27 May, 2015, 12:47:55 pm »
A quick thank you to everyone who has commented on here with helpful info.

First ride this morning with a Track showing whilst I followed a Route prepared in RWGPS. It all worked as expected and after having spent lots of time setting all my screens as I like them I'm a very happy bunny and feeling confident now in my ability to use the Etrex to help me navigate my way across Europe at the end of July.

One last question: Is it possible as it is on the Edge series to have the screen switch to the map view when approaching a turn marked on the Route? Not a biggie but quite handy.

Cheers...Fraser

321up

  • 59° N
Re: ETREX or 62/64 for ultra bike race
« Reply #19 on: 27 May, 2015, 01:16:56 pm »
I discovered a Garmin Gremlin on Saturday:  it stopped displaying the track and route and only partly displayed the map - after trying many things to restore normal operation I got it working again be changing to a different profile - so I suggest creating a backup profile.  I've been using the etrex30 for about a year and its the first time it's happened so don't worry unduly, but if it does start to misbehave try changing profiles.