Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: Ham on 05 November, 2015, 02:54:56 pm
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Wondered how much, if any, experience there is about for the latest generation of VR trainers.
I've go a non-smart Tacx Satori, which frankly will do for the amount I use it (in combination with Sufferfest vids), but I can't help wondering. There's Zwift, Bkool, Tacx - any others? Anyone tried one of the "steerable" ones - can't see that being especially effective.
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VR Trainers are for cyclists who are on the twenty eighth floor of a New York apartment block.
We have the countryside.
( Floor level may vary )
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Glibly said, but when you are in London the countryside is a ride away, with relatively little nearby that looks much like a hill.
VR is for people who enjoy toys and don't much enjoy trainers.
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I use Zwift, and Sufferfest in combination with TrainerRoads, and a BKool turbo or an Elite set of rollers. Zwift now has a workout mode with several different workouts available. Plans are coming too. If you've tried Zwift, you'll know it's quite sociable and allows group rides which can be quite fun. The workout mode has you operating on your own, though you can still see and interact with other riders. It's on the course of the day (either 'Watopia' or the Richmond WC course), but ignores hills in terms of the resistance, favouring the requirement of the workout.
The Sufferfest/TR combination is a solo thing, but the videos are fun and motivational, and can be bloody hard work. If you have a smart trainer then TR will set the resistance appropriately for the stage of the video, all you have to do is ride at the correct cadence. TR on its own can provide you with all the workouts you need, but it's a bit dry and uninspirational.
I did have the Bkool software as well, but my internet connection isn't up to streaming their videos, and I found the computer-generated 3D world stuff very unconvincing.
Edit to add: if you have Strava Premium, your first two months of Zwift are free - and anyone gets their first 50k for free.
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That's interesting - does TrainerRoads change the resistance in line with the gradient in Sufferfest vids? I haven't tried Zwift, again I suspect you will need an ANT+ connection to join in.
Machine wise, the Tacx iGenius is available at 35% off at the moment, which is looking appealing.
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Yes it does. And several other video products too, such as 3LC, Cyclefilm, Spinervals and others. Both TR and Zwift (and Bkool) need an Ant+ connection, and the trainer needs to be Ant FE&C compatible for the software to control the resistance - for the TACX range, that's the 'Smart' trainers. The steering device, by the way, I've tried and found superfluous. It's unrealistic (no-one 'steers' a bike!), and, in most software, there's no programmed response to the input.
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Incidentally, the iGenius isn't FE&C compatible, as far as I'm aware. You'd need the Genius Smart.
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'tis the smart http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/tacx-genius-smart-trainer/rp-prod138154?gs=1&gclid=CjwKEAiAvPGxBRCH3YCgpdbCtmYSJABqHRVwxJmuhSqHx6ohWRP9AkrYR6QtEcZ-GEkxwz4-DXEdeBoCnxfw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds (Rutland are about a fiver less)
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I'm not a natural "training" type of cyclist, turbo trainers even less so. However I now have a use-case for Zwift that kind of appeals...
We have set up an international group of visualization academics interested in cycling - Velo Club de Vis (http://www.gicentre.net/velo-club-de-vis). We are based around the world, although mostly in Europe and the US and currently only meet up face-to-face once a year at one of our large international academic conferences (the last meeting was last week in Chicago). Someone suggested we might want to set up a Zwift group and go for virtual rides together between our actual meetups. There was general enthusiasm among the group, so this may well happen. My (very limited) understanding of Zwift is that all it needs is an ANT compatible wheel sensor as a minimum so is potentially independent of any particular turbo trainer. Although I guess something like the Tacx Genius Smart would make things simpler (if a little costly).
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This from DC Rainmaker covers most of the options: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/winter-trainer-depth.html
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I'm not a natural "training" type of cyclist, turbo trainers even less so. However I now have a use-case for Zwift that kind of appeals...
We have set up an international group of visualization academics interested in cycling - Velo Club de Vis (http://www.gicentre.net/velo-club-de-vis). We are based around the world, although mostly in Europe and the US and currently only meet up face-to-face once a year at one of our large international academic conferences (the last meeting was last week in Chicago). Someone suggested we might want to set up a Zwift group and go for virtual rides together between our actual meetups. There was general enthusiasm among the group, so this may well happen. My (very limited) understanding of Zwift is that all it needs is an ANT compatible wheel sensor as a minimum so is potentially independent of any particular turbo trainer. Although I guess something like the Tacx Genius Smart would make things simpler (if a little costly).
Yes, Zwift - and TrainerRoads - can be utilised without needing a trainer that can be controlled by the app. If the trainer has been assessed by the app team, it'll have a known resistance curve that allows them to calculate a 'virtual power' figure for a given bike speed and resistance setting. If you add a cadence sensor it'll enable the app to give a slightly more accurate depiction of speed-for-power in the virtual world. Add a heart-rate sensor and you can get meaningful workout feedback. The Zwift website (http://zwift.com/what-is-it/) gives more detail.
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This from DC Rainmaker covers most of the options: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/winter-trainer-depth.html
The trouble with the (very useful) DCRainmaker reviews is that they are not quite up to date, which with a market moving as fast as it seems to, is no surprise or criticism but the detail differences aren't as clearcut as you might think.
From what I can see, the Tacx Genius Smart is about the best combination of features, with open ANT+FEC meaning I can pair it with anything. Almost. Plus the Tacx video appears highly regarded which - for someone who wants shiny toy rather than a precise training tool - is likely useful.
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Gaaaaaaah! My brane hurts.
Now being put off Tacx (at least the Genius) because of the endless additional purchases and cost of vids.
Both Zwift and TrainerRoads have a very limited selection of compatible devices.
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I was under the impression that Zwift would work with any Ant+ speed/cadence sensor? If so I might well give it a spin as I have one (from a Garmin) plus a stick to go in the laptop.
Only problem is I would have to install Windows!
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No, you don't need Windows. It works on OSX - indeed, I'd be stuffed if it didn't!
Zwift and TrainerRoad will give worthwhile results with any bike fitted with Ant+ Speed/Cadence, and if you have Power and HR outputs, so much the better. I quite often use my Elite Arione Digital rollers with them, which neither program can control (they use a Private ANT connection which only the Elite app can control), but still get good interactive training. However, if the trainer has Ant FE-C, then the programs can control the resistance directly. The cheapest Tacx trainer which allows this is the Vortex Smart, which can be had for around £235 from one or two of the German outlets, and that is by far the cheapest entry into smart indoor training. I wouldn't bother with any of the Tacx software other than the phone app, which allows decent training without firing up the mega-screen PC!
Zwift is £8/month - but you get the first 50km free to get a flavour of how it works, and, if you have Strava Premium, you get two months every year free. There are no other in-app purchases. Zwift is a little limited as yet, but they've now implemented workouts and they will be introducing new courses soon. TrainerRoad is $12/month but you don't have to pay for whole months in which you don't use it. There are no in-app purchases (eg, plans - and there are many - are free). I like TR in combination with Sufferfest, so they come at extra cost obviously.
If I was to choose one over the other, it would be TR with Sufferfest just at the moment. With their Virtual Power feature, almost any trainer coupled with a speed/cadence sensor will give repeatable, consistent power feedback. It might not be that accurate (probably +/- 10%), but the consistency means that you can track your improvement. If you can stretch to Training Peaks as well, you can lose the whole winter deep in stats! If you have Strava Premium, however, there's some decent analysis within that app, and you can easily upload your Zwift or TR workouts to Strava for poring over in detail later.
If you have a Garmin Edge 520 or (soon) 1000, you will very soon be able to take a ride you've done outdoors and re-ride it on your Ant FE-C trainer with the computer directly controlling the trainer's resistance. That seems quite cool to me!
Do I give the impression I'm a bit of a gadget freak? Sadly true - and an avid consumer of Ray Maker's reviews on DCRainmaker. But as someone with limited time and opportunity to ride outdoors, and very much a fair-weather cyclist anyway, this stuff gives me both the motivation and interest to keep fit in the cold and dark months.
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Find someone like a wife with a stopwatch, schedule on a clipboard and a hand on the resistance controller shouting “10% hill starting now!”.
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Find someone like a wife with a stopwatch, schedule on a clipboard and a hand on the resistance controller shouting “10% hill starting now!”.
Thanks. Very helpful. No wife.
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No, you don't need Windows. It works on OSX - indeed, I'd be stuffed if it didn't!
Zwift and TrainerRoad will give worthwhile results with any bike fitted with Ant+ Speed/Cadence, and if you have Power and HR outputs, so much the better. I quite often use my Elite Arione Digital rollers with them, which neither program can control (they use a Private ANT connection which only the Elite app can control), but still get good interactive training. However, if the trainer has Ant FE-C, then the programs can control the resistance directly. The cheapest Tacx trainer which allows this is the Vortex Smart, which can be had for around £235 from one or two of the German outlets, and that is by far the cheapest entry into smart indoor training. I wouldn't bother with any of the Tacx software other than the phone app, which allows decent training without firing up the mega-screen PC!
Zwift is £8/month - but you get the first 50km free to get a flavour of how it works, and, if you have Strava Premium, you get two months every year free. There are no other in-app purchases. Zwift is a little limited as yet, but they've now implemented workouts and they will be introducing new courses soon. TrainerRoad is $12/month but you don't have to pay for whole months in which you don't use it. There are no in-app purchases (eg, plans - and there are many - are free). I like TR in combination with Sufferfest, so they come at extra cost obviously.
If I was to choose one over the other, it would be TR with Sufferfest just at the moment. With their Virtual Power feature, almost any trainer coupled with a speed/cadence sensor will give repeatable, consistent power feedback. It might not be that accurate (probably +/- 10%), but the consistency means that you can track your improvement. If you can stretch to Training Peaks as well, you can lose the whole winter deep in stats! If you have Strava Premium, however, there's some decent analysis within that app, and you can easily upload your Zwift or TR workouts to Strava for poring over in detail later.
If you have a Garmin Edge 520 or (soon) 1000, you will very soon be able to take a ride you've done outdoors and re-ride it on your Ant FE-C trainer with the computer directly controlling the trainer's resistance. That seems quite cool to me!
Do I give the impression I'm a bit of a gadget freak? Sadly true - and an avid consumer of Ray Maker's reviews on DCRainmaker. But as someone with limited time and opportunity to ride outdoors, and very much a fair-weather cyclist anyway, this stuff gives me both the motivation and interest to keep fit in the cold and dark months.
I thought that would be the case, but I cant understand why only a subset of the Tacx trainers appear as supported, (of the supported ones the Bushido looks handy for its lack of external power) the exact capabilities and dependencies of each interaction appear to be a minefield.
I'm not too worried about stats, for me it would be a gadget to help maintain interest; like you I - ummm - enjoy? the sufferfest vids, I think I'd enjoy the VR-ish bit, too.
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Are we talking about Zwift, or both Zwift and TR? On Zwift, they list three Tacx Smart trainers - Bushido, Sartori, and Vortex. The Genius Smart is fine as well, though perhaps it wasn't out when they last updated the list. The Sartori will give accurate power readings, but can't be controlled by the program as it's a manual resistance selection. As for the Classic (non FE-C) trainers, any will work, as long as you have cadence and speed sensors, but only those listed have had a power curve calibrated to give a reasonably accurate assessment of your power output. If you have a power meter (I use Stages), the trainer is irrelevant as Zwift will access the power meter's output.
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The trouble with the (very useful) DCRainmaker reviews is that they are not quite up to date, which with a market moving as fast as it seems to, is no surprise or criticism but the detail differences aren't as clearcut as you might think.
He updates yearly as the trainer companies update in the summer before Eurobike and Interlake. His latest review is http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/2015-2016trainer-recommendations.html (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/2015-2016trainer-recommendations.html).
I think it is a bit unfair to criticise him for being out of date. The last ones were updated in September and the guide is published with 7 weeks with real world experience from his usage.
I had a Tacx flow which was non smart and seemed to be dying. Just upgraded to a tax neo so will report back after my first ride this morning.
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Ray continually updates his individual product reviews as manufacturers develop their products. Trouble is, the reviews are long and comprehensive and generate a great deal of online discussion, so it can sometimes be hard to find the update among the noise! Significant updates (like the Bkool addition of FE-C to every trainer they've ever produced) get a separate article. This year's overall trainer review is a bit less comprehensive than previous years as there really hasn't been a lot of new stuff this year, mostly just developments of existing products. Yet again, the Wahoo Kickr is the trainer of choice for those with lots of money. The Tacx Vortex Smart gets the nod for cheapest worthwhile smart trainers (at least in Europe, as it's much more expensive in the US)
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Well, that was my first ride on the Tacx Neo with ANT+ FE-C enabled. workout is https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2530264-Sufferfest-Do-As-You-re-Told (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2530264-Sufferfest-Do-As-You-re-Told).
Overall it matched the power better than anything i have ridden before. The edges are squarer so more time in the zone. I changed gear twice during the whole 45 minutes. First to go from little ring to big for the end of the warmup and then back again for the recovery at the very end. The rest of the time the computer and turbo just accommodated my cadence to produce the power. Certainly helps to now if the next drill is high or low cadence. Occasionally I thought it was a high cadence so speeded up a touch towards the end of the recovery and found myself doing some massive power when I should have been doing 75 rpm not 110!! Alternatively if you are tiring and let your cadence drop as I did in a couple of intervals then you end up with some massive force to push (like staring off up a 15% hill in the big ring!).
Overall I am very impressed and found it enjoyable. It was nice not having to think about changing gear.
Is it necessary for training - NO, am I a gadget freak with an empty nest -YES.
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it necessary for training - NO, am I a gadget freak with an empty nest -YES.
Sounds as if you're having fun. And why not (don't think a rhetorical qn. needs a ?).
It's interesting that DCRainmaker now goes for the bells and whistles trainers in favour of more basic machines. I can well see that gadgetry might make people less likely to give up on indoor training. I currently use a basic mag trainer, but find that music and a HRM help to keep my mind on the job and off the boredom.
However, we surely turbo in the expectation that the work done is a pretty good approximation to outdoor cycling, and that there is transfer of training, similar 'road feel', muscle recruitment, or whatever. Otherwise, why bother?
Interestingly, DCR seems not to address this as much as he could/should. In his recent review of trainers 2015/2016 he suggests that basic turbos (such as the KK Road Machine) are no longer worth considering, and you need to go almost to the end of the open discussion section before finding this:
<< Chris Mohr
November 7, 2015 at 1:45 pm #262
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Subjective question: How would you compare the “road feel” of the following: the KK Road Machine, Kickr Snap, and Vortex Smart? Do you have any thoughts? Thinking of getting a smart trainer this year.
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DC Rainmaker replied
November 7, 2015 at 2:13 pm #263
I’d put the KK at the top, then the KICKR SNAP & Vortex Smart. Those two are pretty similar in terms of feel, though the KICKR Snap might get a very slight edge. >>
Interesting. My current trainer has done years of service, and needs replacing. Fortunately, while I do like a good gadget, I don't find motivation too much of a problem on the turbo, so I'm probably going to go for the Kurt Kinetic.
Happy training - virtual or otherwise.
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Ray's open about the fact that he comes at this from the angle of a tech-head - until last week, he was a senior software engineer (or something like that) at Microsift. Basically, he's not interested in basic trainers or anything that doesn't interface with a computer. They just don't float his boat, and I totally get that.
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I did a training session tonight on the KickR that I think I'd find virtually impossible to perform accurately on a basic trainer. 40 x 30s intervals at just over 300W.
Reckon I'm going to get a lot more quality training in over this winter than in previous years.
I've just ordered an iMac. As it has Bluetooth 4.0 support, I'll be able to use it with the KickR and this means I could give Zwift a go. :thumbsup:
(Techically I could have used the KickR with my MBP but I found the Ant+ operation using the Garmin USB dongle too unreliable).
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I've had some issues with ANT+ dongles and I now have mine on a short USB extension cable, which seems to have sorted things satisfactorily.
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Well, after long internal discussion, I decided on Tacx as providing the best value Ant+ trainers with deals available at the moment (Genius for £470), but noted their annoying pricing and description policy which has you paying for just about everything Tacx, although the option of going Trainer Roads / Zwift is more appealing. Tacx VR software is unlikely to run on the Atom based netbook I use for the purpose.
Then, to decide on the model. The Vortex Smart is by far the cheapest, but not too different in tech from my Satori, and I'd rather like to improve. The Bushido seemed best value, but again the Genius seemed to be a substantial improvement. However, you still need to buy the Tacx PC connection kit for another >£100 or at least a dongle, then you have to go with 3rd party software. So, I ended up with the Ironman Smart from Rosebikes (god bless the euro rate!) which has both the software and a VR film chucked in to the deal, for around 500 notes (deal appears to have disappeared with the last one in stock, soz)
Now winging its way through DHL tracking system, in Koln right now.
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The FE-C upgrade to my original-model Bkool trainer has transformed its usability. I would imagine you could pick one up on eBay for ~£150, and I think Bkool still sell it as the Classic for about £280. OK, there's no Bluetooth Smart, but it allows TR and Zwift etc to control the trainer very well. I do envy the better TACX trainers' ability to drive the wheel, simulating downhill, but, really, where's the need for that when you're training?
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Bkool appear to sell only 2, the smart pro (same cost as mine) and the dumb one, didn't know there was another option, I discounted second hand as this year's models seem to be ahead in most respects and didn't know viable options existed. My main reason for settling on the Tacx was the greater flywheel weight (and the downhill drive sounded cool, ok)
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I tried to do my FTP test on my Tacx Neo last night and found a problem (well reported on the internet).
The software should tell the neo through the FE-C protocol to swap from ergo mode to slope mode. This does not seem to happen and I suddenly found myself trying to push about 600W and increasing!
Machine works perfectly in every other respect but this. I will therefore do my FTP with the Tacx ipad training app.
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I tried to do my FTP test on my Tacx Neo last night and found a problem (well reported on the internet).
The software should tell the neo through the FE-C protocol to swap from ergo mode to slope mode. This does not seem to happen and I suddenly found myself trying to push about 600W and increasing!
Machine works perfectly in every other respect but this. I will therefore do my FTP with the Tacx ipad training app.
Hah! me too! I thought it might be lack of calibration of the devicce with TrainerRoads. I think it did change to slope mode, but about 20%! I also noticed that on the first 5 min run, at first it took all resistance away. I stopped, poked a few things, and then all of a sudden it came in at max resistance.
At the end, I switched into a manual control (which still seemed to be more than the alleged 3%) and carried on. I reckon 160 is my current FTP. It was interesting to have my suspicion confirmed that my Garmin Oregon apparently under-reports cadence, using that I had to spin at (what I reckon) is > 100 to show 90. Will have to check one against the other.
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Is this a problem with TR controlling just TACX trainers, or any trainer? I last did an FTP test using my Arione Digital rollers, so it'll be interesting to do it on the turbo.
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I've done FTP tests on TR but only in BlueTooth mode. It has worked fine apart from the first one in which TR crashed 15 minutes into the test effort.
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I was just reading on FB that the new TR Windows Beta is very, very slow and causing huge stutters in Sufferfest video playback, so avoid!
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I've discovered TR have an ask a cycling coach podcast. Been interesting and useful so far.
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I suspect this is a problem only with Tacx smart FE-C compliant turbos. The problem is not the recording but the change from ergo mode to slope at the change over and it affects all ftp workouts both from Trainerroad itself and when using various videos.
I managed my FTP by manually altering the resistance as soon as I hit the slope section. New FTP is 201 which seems about right.
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Well this is fun.
First, the good things about my Geni-arse. The large flywheel is excellent, and actually justifies my choice, unhappy as I am about the software and working together. The drive feature is surprisingly good, too; I didn't expect that. The 20% slope capability actually means it is smoother on the lower gradients.
But the fucking software is just shite. All of it. Just shite. I've got enough working to see how good it will be if I can ever get it tuned properly, the Sufferfest/TrainerRoad combo is excellent. Or would be if it worked. Tacx? must have been bought out by Dyson.
My only laptop powerful enough to manage the Tacx software is my work laptop, I've had to get virtualisation running on it so that it is hidden from big brother, but that's worked OK.
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Tacx software is rubbish and should never be used.
I don't think that there is anything Tacx does that others do not do better.
both garmin (520/1000) will drive the trainer through FE-C if you want a simple workout.
Trainerroad has a workout designer feature if you want to do your own workouts. if you want to ride uphill whilst watching a video then try Fulgaz for ios or veloreality.
I have tried the Tacx software over the years and would never pay again for it.
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Well, I wasn't intending to pay for it, but it was obvious I needed at least an ANT+ Dongle. so the Rose Bikes deal gave me the Genius + Dongle + Software + 1 Tacx film all for the price of the (discounted) trainer in the UK, which is much the same as the bkool price.
However, tonight, I managed to get TrainerRoad going with Sufferfest Downward Spiral !!!
All worked pretty well, all in all. The workout is here (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2589670-Sufferfest-Downward-Spiral-pre-5-15-). That problem at the start of the second intervals? Well, if you let up, the FE-C appears to compensate and ups the resistance way beyond anything I could recover from at that stage. As I found out, the only thing to do is Not Let Up :sick:
Output power felt about right, too, but what do I know?
Have to try some others, too.
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That's Erg mode for you. It can help to change down. But the whole point of load restricted electronic trainers is to make you do the workout as designed. TR workouts are designed as %FTP so if the workout is either too hard or too easy then the FTP value (default is 200W) is likely wrong. You can adjust the FTP manually or adjust the workout intensity in real time. Or do an FTP test but that's hard work.
Alternatively switch to resistance or slope mode and then the effort require is set by you and how hard you work.
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That looks ok, Ham, except that (as Simon suggests) you may have the FTP set just a little too high! I've found that in Erg mode the ability of the system to compensate for low cadence in a high-ish gear is limited, and it will simply demand more power than the schedule asks for. That's ok when it's a rest period, but in the intervals it can be a real problem if you let the cadence drop! So a judicious use of gears is helpful. Once you get the hang of of it, the power-achieved trace should very closely match the power plan. Your trace looks more like what I get on the rollers, which is essentially resistance mode, so I'm directly determining how much power I put out and trying to match it to the plan.
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Ham, Your figures look very similar to mine https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2530264-Sufferfest-Do-As-You-re-Told
I had my FTP at 210 which was inherited from the previous trainer. I have it now at 201 after an FTP test.
The beauty of the ERG mode is that you do not have to change gear at all throughout the hour. However if you are in a high gear it is difficult for the trainer resistance to go low enough for you to spin during the recovery sessions and gives little leeway in the intervals. I have taken to doing virtually all my workouts in 34 /20. This allows me to spin easily in the recovery sections and the turbo is quite capable of ramping up the resistance in the intervals!
When you come to do the FTP test there may be a bug! At the start of the FTP section the trainer has to switch from ERG mode to slope mode so that you determine the power. On my neo Trainerroad tells it to switch to a 3% slope but the Neo seems to interpret this as about 25%! So you go from recovery to pushing out about 600W in 10 seconds and grind to a halt!!
What I had to do was in the first couple of seconds of the FTP section dial back the resistance to a manageable level. This shouldn't make a major difference.
Your machine may be different but just a warning.
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From what I can gather, TR depends on Tacx calibration; my previous attempt to run the Tacx software on a low powered netbook was doooomed, dooomed. Tacx seems to run happily (FCVO happy) in a VM on an underpowered i5 which is the most powerful laptop I have which has got me to this point. The calibration completed better, I have yet to discover whether that turns into less powering on TR in certain recovery sections. Certainly, the Tacx demo video worked in tune with the landscape but I don't suppose they use the FE-C connection to communicate with their own devices.
I've been running the training in 52-12 or thereabouts, which may be part of the problem with the modulation, I'll experiment with different rings. Certainly the first attempt at FTP screwed up badly, but I suspect the real number shouldn't be too much different as I at least completed that last session. Been fun looking around at other output on TR site, and I'm going to have a go with that veloreality, that looks like efficient coding.
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Well, SF Angels last night was not as much of a success. Granted it is probably a harder workout, but the 250W was much harder than the 250 or whatever on Downward Spiral. Changed to resistance mode and I could put out a reported 250 much easier and in line with my expectations. But, as I haven't got a control unit going for the unit yet, changing the resistance proved to be too much of a faff.
Played with gears, and there may be an optimum combination, but I haven't found it yet. I can't quite match cadence and power. Either I have to spin too slow, or can't spin fast enough. Some playing is called for.
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If it is FE-C then within a the range of adjustment the resistance in erg mode should auto adjust to compensate for cadence change. I am very impressed with mine how quickly it does change and recalibrate for changes in cadence.
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In my FTP test on Tuesday on the Kickr I felt very much between gears at the power I was producing. However in Erg mode I can ride in pretty much any gear I want over a very wide range of power outputs.
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Well, it is becoming clearer.
Yesterday, I ran the Garmin with the mobile app to calibrate, I think it did a better job. 52-something like 18 (straight chain line) selected and left all the time. Apart from anything else, the calibration module says "Too tight" and "Too loose" to tell you how to fix, which the PC version doesn't.
I then went into another Downward Spiral (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2605604-Sufferfest-Downward-Spiral-pre-5-15-) with an FTP of 189 turned up to 105%, and tonight a Very Dark Place (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2610802-A-Very-Dark-Place-pre-June-2013-) back at 200 and 100% (although I changed after it started which appears not to be properly reflected.
It would be interesting to see how the power output measures against reality (I suspect it is overstated) but the software definitely controls it properly now, and I can only assume it is reasonably right. I also have to conclude that my FTP may be higher than 200, as you can see HR is never over 160 which seems to suggest I need to be working harder :(
Also, spinning at low power is interesting because of the heavy flywheel effect, which means I have to work on a smoother pedalling technique as any unevenness is very noticeable. However, the feel in general is much better than the Satori.
Getting there.
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Last night i stayed in to avoid the freezing roads late on and had a go on the turbo. Seemed unhappy on 50:15 (275W) and on 50:17 (220W), but the turbo wheel has a silly cassette with no 16 cog. I'll either have to buy/build another cassette or get stong enough to push the 15 for a session.
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I had decided to do some serious zone 1/2 training over the winter to increase my endurance, combine this with a set of sweetspot sessions and then one sufferfest a week.
Unfortunately changing to the studded tyres left me with a zone 3/4 workout on the way to work with the extra power, so I did a different flatter run to work and then set up my own zone 1/2 workout on trainerroad. This worked really well with 1 hour on the turbo trying to achieve a steady heart rate in the 120-130 range. I set the power to what I thought was a reasonable % of FTP for an hour and just pedalled whilst watching netflix. When my HR drifted up I dropped the percentage by a few points. Very enjoyable session and surprisingly achey at the end of what I thought would be a fairly easy session.
I am finding the whole ergo setting on the trainer very good and much easier to use than the old systems for indoor training when really all I want to do is put my legs through a workout whilst I dissociate and watch TV.
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Well, what a difference a week makes.
Now I understand what's going on I went back to the FTP workout and went through it successfully (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2617135-20-Minute-Test). Compare that to the previous FAIL (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2562804-20-Minute-Test).....
It turns out that it switches into resistance mode ok, but set the resistance at about 15% rather than 3%! With my added knowledge I was able to reduce the resistance to the point I was comfortable at 90 rpm (couldn't quite get that so I was spinning at about 100) and it turns out that as suspected my FTP is higher than 200 :( Damn.
I might have been able to put out more power, I didn't feel on the edge, but HR seems to be high enough and the puddle was big enough to feel that's a sensible number for the moment.
Have to re-do some Sufferfest now with the changed FTP.
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Is that a congratulations or a commiserations?
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There appears to be an interesting twist to these Erg mode things, there is deffo some kind of "hill mode" as well as the simple erg power.
I tried Angels (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2622694-Sufferfest-Angels) yesterday and - quite apart from the fact I crapped out before the end - there's a noticeable difference between the power output & target and cadence in different sections. What I mean is that - even with the same target power - on some "hill" sections were you to be achieving the same cadence you'd be pushing out much more power. I suppose I could change gear and spin, but as yet I haven't added that degree of sophistication ;)
Tonight I had a try of Do As you're Told (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2628524-Sufferfest-Do-As-You-re-Told) and was doing OK until I had to kick the IT in the middle of the evil second set of intervals, lost rhythm and didn't stand a chance to come back. (eg @ 37:56 shows cadence of 50 with power of 240 - target 336) I gave up ;)
Think I should have a day off now.
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I just got a Tacx Vortex Smart full connected model for £299 on Rose. No idea if that is a good deal - it was a spur of the moment thing.
Arrived in <48hrs. Set up this pm, and straight on to Zwift. So far, seems like fun.
Wasn't this busy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zdb3UVieyc
Riding with Laurens ten Dam in the morning.
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OK, you tempted me and I was weak.. Tacx Vortex Smart, Wahoo Ant+ dongle purchased and TrainerRoad subscribed. I've only hooked it all up for long enough to do the 4 minute Power Training Ridethrough to see how everything worked (very well it turns out). Sometime tomorrow I'll find out just how weak I am, the embarassment of my first FTP test awaits. :-X
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Just tried Violator. 64 effing sprints https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2638748-Sufferfest-Violator The few seconds out of synch with the video was very annoying
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Just done get To Get To The Other Side for the first time. Really enjoyed it as a Tempo workout. Felt it was a bit neither one thing or another at times, but the scenery is absolutely stunning.
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Stupid question from me: How do these Sufferfest videos (which appear just to be video files as far as I can see from the web), link to the trainer? How is the resistance controlled and progress monitored? I have seen, for example, the Tacx films (https://www.tacx.com/en/products/films) which through the Tacx Cycling App seem to be able to control the turbo trainer and alter the speed of the video according to riding speed. Presumably, with an audio commentary, the Sufferfest videos don't do that.
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It's not actually a stupid question since it's not that clear.
I found this:
http://thesufferfest.com/pages/help-faq
and
this:
http://thesufferfest.com/blogs/the-sufferfest-blog/49858371-sufferfest-erg-file-for-computrainer
Basically someone wrote .erg files which control a computrainer to match the work-out instructions.
TrainerRoad has a load of Sufferfest work-outs available, which match the videos. So you load the sufferfest video and use the appropriate work-out to line up with it.
I've not tried this myself, I've just been using TR's workouts without any video (and either listening to music, watching a TV show or listening to a podcast).
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I've no idea whether the Trainerroad depend on those erg files or not, but in TR it is very easy to use.
All you do from the workout menu is select ->Videos->Sufferfest then open the appropriate TR workout, then drag and drop the video on the screen. (If you have the wrong variant it will warn that you have the wrong length video)
Then, it is as easy as turning the pedals to start and stopping to pause. Not all the vids are perfectly synched, and not necessarily the same all the way through as well. Not a big problem with most (you just follow the TR instructions) but Violater was particularly bad, as at one stage you are doing 5 second sprints with 5 seconds rest. TBH, by that time I was just hanging on in there and didn't care that much ;)
Within margins, it seems that you set your own cadence and let the erg mode sort out the resistance.
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Thanks Simon and Ham. So to get the equivalent of the iMagic Real life videos from ten years ago (which don't work on a modern machine) I have to
A) buy a trainer
B) buy an ANT+ dongle for my computer
C) buy or subscribe to sufferfest
D) subscribe to Trainer Road
E) connect the lot together.
They don't make it easy (or cheap) do they?
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w-e-e-e-e-el.... it could be worse?
The worse is Tacx videos which you "just buy" for about £50 a hit (!!!!) but run on such flaky software it is untrue.
It sounds worse than it is.
First, the Ant+ trainier - the Vortex Smart is probably the best value, I went for the Genius (actually Ironman) because of the bundle and Rose Bikes price, I'm not convinced I did the right thing. But anyway, you have to lash out on an Ant+ trainer for sure (which should also do bluetooth)
That trainer is functional on its own, with a phone or whatever to control it. But yes, you do need a computer with and Ant dongle, because anyway you do want to have HRM as well, don't you? So that's part of your purchase price. Tacx software is eyewateringly expensive (£140 for the software + dongle) - did I mention it is as flaky as hell? Any other dongle should work as well, although the Tacx one is on a long lead, some people report having to use an extension to use the USB plug type so as to get it closer to the devices.
That's where TR comes in. TR is the glue that holds the stuff together and you can cancel the sub when you don't want it. From there, there's a learning curve to get it all happening, but it is quite a short one. The nice thing about the Ant+ is that it does all hang together without any trouble (at least, for me)
There are also other video providers that are supported in TR, I haven't tried any of them yet, but Sufferfest are pretty good, I'm getting much more out of them now that I have the erg mode as opposed to before where you have to estimate your effort as n/10 - I always either over estimate and end up burying myself or/and then underestimate just to get through. Overall the workouts are much more effective with the VR stuff than without, at least that's what the echo sounder on the Pool of Sweat suggests.....
ETA, and no it's not cheap and I count myself as fortunate that I can indulge, but given that it is seriously helping my weight loss regime and my plans to be in the mountains come next April, it's money well spent for me.
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For software, you could try Golden Cheetah, it is free. I think you can load those Sufferfest videos in it. http://www.goldencheetah.org/
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Sufferfest with TR works very well, but you do have to ensure you're using the exactly correct TR profile; some of the Sufferfest videos have been updated and differ slightly from the previous iteration. Also, if you have a flaky Ant+ dongle (and they do seem to be a bit flaky), the synchronisation can suffer.
Fairly soon you can expect the Sufferfest iPhone/iPad app to be available, which should obviate these issues (using Bluetooth Smart as wrell as Ant+) , though I assume you'll need a good enough internet connection to stream the videos.
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I think the new sufferfest app is going to hit TR fairly hard. If it is as good as the videos then it should be excellent. I believe that you will be able to do some caching for offline use (holidays, etc.). It should have the advantage of perfect sync. I believe the app is out before Christmas and will give access to all the videos on a subscription basis.
Also being iOS native it should run off bluetooth. Then all you need is a smart bluetooth trainer, an iPad and a bluetooth HR band.
Interestingly, Tacx will broadcast on ANT+ but the app to do the updating runs on an iPhone over bluetooth. I suspect that ANT+ will slowly die.
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I can't see that the synch has anything to do with Ant+ issues, the problem synching is matching changes in target power/tempo to the changes to the timecode on the video.
And a reminder, less than half the population have iPhone-y things. I'm also not certain that a Sufferfest sub for more than TR sub quite hacks it, just as long as TR continue to have such a wide range of compatible workouts along with integration.
(Wifi down my shed is pretty flaky, too)
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I agree about the ant+. I perhaps put it badly. I would expect that the version of the videos in the app will be able to trigger/ sync the app directly. Whereas TR works by someone sitting with the video, timing to intervals and setting the TR intervals to match.
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Whoever makes it, it will come down to someone pressing a button at the right spot, but that's the odd thing. As far as I know AVI do have time codes, so how can it ever get to be so wrong? Weird. But you're right, I would expect a minion produced app to work in synch, people forgive TR (at least I do) but I wouldn't forgive Sufferfest if they got it wrong as that is their only product.
Just done get To Get To The Other Side for the first time. Really enjoyed it as a Tempo workout. Felt it was a bit neither one thing or another at times, but the scenery is absolutely stunning.
I just had a go at that, and really enjoyed it (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2649058-Sufferfest-TGTTOS#), it is after all a tempo ride that - if I understand it right - you should be able to carry on and on. Also, I found the exercise of riding to tempo was quite challenging and useful, but then I haven't ever done any style practice, I think I need to. And if you don't mind me saying, I think my cadence was a little smoother than yours :demon: :smug:
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You may be right about the cadence. My cadence comes from the turbo and seems to go inappropriately high in the fast cadence drills. I think I will need to add a garmin cadence sensor. I think that in the high cadence drills the rocking of the turbo upsets the sensors for the cadence.
I have been trying to do most of my outside riding purely in zone 1 and 2 so less than 130 HR. Has some real advantages in that I don't sweat at those HR levels so I can wrap up for the commutes without then getting too hot. Not really seen a major improvement yet in my speed at that level but I think it is coming.
I was also advised by a coach to do some https://www.fascatcoaching.com/tips/sweetspotpartdeux/ (https://www.fascatcoaching.com/tips/sweetspotpartdeux/) sweetspot training. So I made a custom sweetspot workout https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2649647-sweetspot (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2649647-sweetspot). So far I am really enjoying them. His advice was to push it up by a couple of watts each time you do them to maintain the stress but keep them doable.
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That looks quite like Carson (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2642883-Carson-45) except with Carson the ******rs get you to stand (which I found interesting and needing some work on refinement). The most interesting bit was to try moving nearer the saddle when stood up. Wasn't easy to start but felt remarkably natural when it went right (not often); the large flywheel on the Genius probably helped, I always find it difficult standing on a trainer.
I would have thought that if you have a (deliberately) wobbly trainer getting smooth cadence at high rpm would be tough to impossible. My daughter has just started working in a gym where they have a load of Wattbikes, I must have a try to see what my peanuts are like ;)
My own reason for this binge of training is two fold. First and most immediately for weight loss (are those calories burned really real?) and second to get ready for some mountains come April. Given how little RL riding I'm doing, I think every day on the trainer is a good idea. I don't have any firm plan or programme, although I probably ought. I'm just trying to mix it up and not overdo it. (which is why I haven't pushed my FTP up as far as it probably ought to be....) Interesting article you linked to, is he your coach?
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No, I went to a guy called Adrian Timmis at Barton under Needwood for a bike fitting and asked about coaching etc at the same time. basically with Adrian you get 2 hours to have a fit, new insoles for your shoes and to ask about training, eating, etc. He gave me a sheet about his training plans and we discussed the sweet spot coaching.
he also recommended "Fast after Fifty" by Joe Friel which I read with interest. Some very interesting things in the book about eating mainly. I had been trying to lose weight and was seriously cutting down but feeling tired. Made me realise that I needed a lot more protein in my diet which seems to be making a big difference whilst maintaining my weight loss.
I am not sure my weekly timetable is steady enough to be worth having a formal week in week out coach. Also the motivation needs to come from within to make me get on the bike.
Yes Carson looks very similar but 7minute intervals x4. Might try that next time for a change. My mountains are the Brian Chapman in May and then a week in the Alps in June. Hence the focus more on base aerobic at the moment.
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In the ‘olde days’ on the Birmingham track, the rider would attempt to lap a slower rider on a bike with a cable speedo. It was a 'paced' ride and a sprint round to lap the pacemaker with his speedo.
Do any VR training vids do this?
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There is some track time on one of the sufferfest videos but not much. Unfortunately I think track is too niche for videos to sell. I would love a video with taking half laps, flying 200s etc.
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You can do track on Bkool's site. As well as 'real' opponents (other people online), you can set virtual opponents who will lap at your choice of fixed speed - though that speed is determined by the fitness level you give them, rather than a direct input of lap time or speed. It can be excellent fun!
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Thanks. I will look at that. I am struggling with paying yet another subscription service when i will not use it often enough to really be worthwhile.
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I'm pretty sure you can opt in or out of Bkool on a monthly basis (as you can with Zwift and sort-of with TR).
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I couldn't get OpenGL running to try Zwift. I suspect Bkool will need the same :(
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Works fine on my Macs, and PCs running W7, 8.1 and 10. As does Zwift. Also works on an iPad.
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TrainerRoad have an "ask a cycling coach" podcast which some might find interesting: https://soundcloud.com/trainerroad
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Works fine on my Macs, and PCs running W7, 8.1 and 10. As does Zwift. Also works on an iPad.
I'm running a W10 in a Virtualbox VM inside W7 on a laptop, not entirely surprising.
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As I'm suffering from terminal manflu, I thought I'd try a "kill or cure" workout.
I lasted 20 minutes and I'm not cured :(
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Done 1100km on Zwift since uni broke up for xmas. According to strava, I'm at the 3rd fittest I've been over the last 12 months and the 4th most fatigued. Managed to drop about 2.2.kg from 23,000kcal burnt (ie I ate well over Xmas).
I really love Zwift. I think if they keep developing it, the flexible routes, the social stuff, and the ability to put together big groups rides will make it increasingly compelling. For me, more fun that trudging around local roads with less committed mates in the depth of winter. The big rides are easy to find on Team Up - http://teamup.com/ks4861763bd63ce3d8/
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/12491852_10101539380720860_8635062777599907587_o.jpg)
That's the Sunday morning tempo ride
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I haven't manage to get Zwift running on my kit yet :(
Tried another workout today, somewhat better than the other day, but still not able to survive what I was doing pre-xmas. Gravitated back to a short tempo ride
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Zwift has just introduced a new, flatter course on Watopia (well, much of it is underwater in a glass tunnel, which is cool!). They've also introduced a feature whereby you can design your own workouts, which might allow a reasonable facsimile of TR workouts so you could run the two side-by-side.
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I was also advised by a coach to do some https://www.fascatcoaching.com/tips/sweetspotpartdeux/ (https://www.fascatcoaching.com/tips/sweetspotpartdeux/) sweetspot training. So I made a custom sweetspot workout https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2649647-sweetspot (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2649647-sweetspot). So far I am really enjoying them. His advice was to push it up by a couple of watts each time you do them to maintain the stress but keep them doable.
Surely the idea of sweetspot is that it is high Z3/low Z4, i.e. below FTP which means that you can do it day after day as you haven't stressed yourself too much. I can do my sweetspot stuff as part of my Tues/Wed/Thur commute so my turbo day which is Saturday (after Friday rest day) is for above FTP intervals. I have just created a workout based on Stephen Seiler's research (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2812874-AK-Seiler) which will be my go to session for the next two mesocycles. Then I'll add in a session based on Billat's 30:30 intervals (https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/147415-ak-billat-30-30). The workout creator is so easy to use, I will make a video workout next though, which will take a lot longer I'm sure ;D
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Last winter I did a sweet spot turbo session twice a week. Warm up for ten minutes, cycle sweetspot for 40, warm down for ten minutes. I think it had a real benefit, coupled with a longer mixed ride each weekend, but I haven't had any time to do any riding at all this winter. Heading for a late summer peak, I think!
Back on topic: Zwift looks interesting and I used to work in videogames so wish I'd have thought it up myself! I'm quite happy on the turbo just to listen to music or podcasts, though, and stare at the wall. I have a cognitively demanding job so I think it's good to switch my brain off for an hour a couple of times a week.
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I did a Zwift "tempo" ride this morning led by Zwift CEO Eric Min and lasted 20 mins cos everyone (over 120 riders) thought 30mph for 4 laps would be fun! :| Eric spent the entire time saying "slow down". Rather competitive on there.
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I did a Zwift "tempo" ride this morning led by Zwift CEO Eric Min and lasted 20 mins cos everyone (over 120 riders) thought 30mph for 4 laps would be fun! :| Eric spent the entire time saying "slow down". Rather competitive on there.
I've tried a couple of 'sub 2' (ie less than 2w/kg) rides on Zwift and instantly been out the back. Trouble is, I'm honest about my weight (94kg), so I need to put out ~190w to be at 2w/kg. Most of those on the rides seemed instantly to go to around 3w/kg, and all claimed to be around 60kg!! Hence, at the first hill I'm out the back.
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Well, according to Zwift, I've an FTP of 252, which the should mean a 20m test result of 264, which means a w/kg of 3.3. That agrees with what Strava says on recent rides. With that set of numbers, the 6am rides with Laurens Ten Dam leave me pretty knackered (read fvcked, massive pool of sweat, soaking wet, but still able to commute to work). I have to put out about 240w on the flat and 300w+ on the hills to keep up. If I get dropped, it's touch and go whether I can get back on.
I think as it moves beyond the early adopters, the groups will become more representative of normal cyclists. About 5 people in my club have signed up over Xmas.
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Yes, I've seen the number on the course go from 30-40 at the beginning of the Beta phase to 860 yesterday!
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The take up has been huge which is great but best of all been the whiny bitch-fest about Strava not including virtual miles in their end of the year calculations ;D Real miles are all that counts. Not some "perfect condition" riding on an indoor bike.
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The take up has been huge which is great but best of all been the whiny bitch-fest about Strava not including virtual miles in their end of the year calculations ;D Real miles are all that counts. Not some "perfect condition" riding on an indoor bike.
So I didn't need to delete all my recent turbo sessions from Strava in order to get a correct end of year calculation then? :-\
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Nope! Mine wasn't counted. HOWEVER it did count at one point then Strava decided not to include them after a certain point in time. Not sure when.
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One question about Zwift: my turbo has 8 resistance settings, so I take it I have to input which resistance setting I'm using? If I then turn it down to the next lower setting I'll be able to go faster for less effort. How does Zwift account for this type of cheating? Or can you only use it with fluid trainers with no resistance setting?
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If I put my wattbike on setting 1 or 2 – high cadence but not much wattage, zwift doesn’t actually go faster…. However if I put my resistance to 4-5 then wattage increases phenomenally but I cadence a lot slower so I only add 1mph or 2mph extra and I have to work very very hard for the 3 minute climb to be over and will use the downhill bit to recover. So it’s hard to cheat the system. To cheat it, apparently you have to change the weight of your avatar to something ridiculously light so the the w to Kg is REALLY high for little effort.
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But your Wattbike knows exactly how many watts you are doing. If I just have a basic trainer and the power is calculated from the power curve + the speed (through an ANT+ dongle) then there is the ability to cheat there.
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You might be able to produce a bit more power anaerobically at a lower cadence but higher cadence is more aerobic and thus you ought to be able to keep it up for longer once adapted.
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One question about Zwift: my turbo has 8 resistance settings, so I take it I have to input which resistance setting I'm using? If I then turn it down to the next lower setting I'll be able to go faster for less effort. How does Zwift account for this type of cheating? Or can you only use it with fluid trainers with no resistance setting?
You're using a trainer with manual resistance setting? I'm not sure you can enter that into Zwift. If you also don't have power measurement, then Zwift will use your speed/cadence output and declared weight and apply a factor to account for gradients. If it's like Trainer Roads and it has a power curve for your trainer, that will be at a specific resistance setting - so hitting a given wattage will simply be down to cadence adjustment and achieved back-wheel speed.
It worked similarly for my Elite Arione Digital rollers. Even though they have a remotely controllable variable resistance, it's a Private Ant system and not controllable by non-Elite apps. So TR had worked out power curves for resistance levels 1 and 4 and used wheel speed to deduce power. It works quite well - when I added power measurement via Stages crank, it was pretty damn close to the calculated power. At the time, Zwift didn't have a calculated curve for those rollers so I had to have the Stages before I could use the app. Now, I believe, they have similar curves to TR. But it will mean you have to leave the resistance fixed.
This is different to what you'd do with Sufferfest used on its own, where you'd adjust the resistance to get an appropriate RPE for the required cadence. I use this technique on gym bikes, using Sufferfest on my phone. It works very well!
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Well, I now have a new laptop to run stuff on, so Zwift is on the cards, but WiFi doesn't quite reach down to the
shed SEEKRET BUNKER, a repeater of some sort should do the trick.
Been a while without much on the turbo so I turned FTP down to 250 - I climbed on a Wattbike at the cycle show and got a feel for power output, so I am coming to the conclusion the Tacx isn't that far out. Tried out a new (to me) Sufferfest - The Way Out, another Col Collective vid, this time low cadence power training. Lovely scenery, around where I ski most years, made me want to do the ride. I could see how comfort zone would all change if I turned the FTP back up, but at that power it was pretty much on the easy side https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3256998-sufferfest-the-way-out - took over 15 minutes to work up enough sweat to get HR, even though I damped the contacts to start.
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https://www.facebook.com/gozwift/videos/486112521574228/
The new mountain route is such fun.
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It's open at last? Ooh - that's this afternoon sorted! Deepest, darkest Suffolk is lovely, but it doesn't have proper hills. This could make a real difference to me.
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I'm coming late to this party, having just ordered a Tacx Neo after deciding I need to make a big effort to halt (or delay) the alarming age-related decline in my already limited cycling ability!
The most daunting aspect, to me, is the software. I have the problem of a rural (i.e. totally inadequate) broadband and mobile network service so that everything I use needs to be offline and on my desktop. In addition, the Neo will be set up in an outbuilding and out of reach of my house LAN/wi-fi.
I presently have Garmin Edge 705 and 1000 GPSes for use on the road and I believe these can probably be used to control the Neo. But I also have an early Nexus 7 Android tablet which I think might do the job; but this is getting unreliable and I'm thinking of replacing it. But I can't decide whether to stick with Android or switch to Apple/iPad or a Win 10 laptop. The Neo software issue may well influence this decision.
I don't usually fare well with coping with complex (to me!) software relationships and I like to keep things as simple as possible, so ordinarily I'd just stick with the manufacturer's stuff. But there's quite a lot of comment indicating that the Tacx software (the Win PC stuff I think) is very poor.
So my question is: given the offline requirement, what device would be best for use as a head unit to control the Neo and enable the capture and transfer of workout data to my desktop?
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I would go with trainerroad, an ANT stick and your normal cadence and speed sensors.
Trainer road will work perfectly well offline. You can buy a couple of sufferfest videos or download some footage off the internet. the sufferfest videos are incredibly motivating despite being as cheesy as can be.
Tax Neo, trainer road and sufferfest really work well together. I have the exact step but I am online. The system will cache the results and upload whenever you bring the device into wifi range. You do not need win 10 and it will work pretty well on most simple laptops. The trainerroad app doesn't show the videos and the sufferfest app is treating only, I believe.
I would strongly recommend not using the Tacx software. it is according to everybody I have read still incredibly buggy and poor quality.
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OK Chris, that's helpful, thanks. I hadn't realised the TrainerRoad stuff could be used offline. I guess it's still a subscription service though, rather than a 'buy-it-once' thing like Training Peaks can be? (I suppose I should be less lazy and try to look all this up, but I'm so confused by all the jargon!)
I hear what you say about the videos. At present, I'm sceptical but I've read comments from people who've said they didn't think they'd be interested until they tried them but then quickly got hooked, so I should probably try it out!
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Sufferfest vids along with TR controlling the trainer are way, way ahead of Tacx "Real life" videos - a reminder, real life is boring ;)
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TrainingPeaks is an annual subscription for me. If I had to choose between TrainerRoad and TrainingPeaks, I'd choose TrainerRoad. There is some other trainer software out there, but TrainerRoad has served me very well.
I've never used sufferfest or zwift or similar.
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I've taken my first tentative step into this murky world.
I've ordered an ANT+ dongle for my laptop :thumbsup:.
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I've taken my first tentative step into this murky world.
I've ordered an ANT+ dongle for my laptop :thumbsup:.
:thumbsup: indeed.
Which route are you going?
For anyone considering TrainerRoad - I have 4 free 1-month referrals to give away* with them, if anyone wants to give it a try. You'll need suitable equipment, of course. That's far and away the largest cost in my case, though the bike(s) I use with it cost a lot more.
* As far as I know, there's no incentive for me in this.
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I've taken my first tentative step into this murky world.
I've ordered an ANT+ dongle for my laptop :thumbsup:.
:thumbsup: indeed.
Which route are you going?
Tacx Neo <- Talked myself down from that!
Initially just going to get basic metrics off the current turbo/bike combo (it has Garmin speed/cadence fitted) - probably into Zwift or TrainerRoads (undecided which).
However, I'm very much aware that a reproducible output from my cheapo Cycleops trainer is not feasible, so I'll probably need to upgrade that - possibly a Tacx Vortex (really can't justify the Neo - I just don't need that level of sophistication).
I'm looking for dependable metrics - including virtual power, but on a budget because ultimately I prefer to ride my bikes outside, not in the garage or a bedroom.
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..............
For anyone considering TrainerRoad - I have 4 free 1-month referrals to give away* with them, if anyone wants to give it a try. You'll need suitable equipment, of course.
Yes please, if I can book one of these trials. It'll take me a while to get things set up, but if I can come back to you in a while, t'would be much appreciated.
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..............
For anyone considering TrainerRoad - I have 4 free 1-month referrals to give away* with them, if anyone wants to give it a try. You'll need suitable equipment, of course.
Yes please, if I can book one of these trials. It'll take me a while to get things set up, but if I can come back to you in a while, t'would be much appreciated.
Done. When you want to go ahead, PM me your email.
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I'm doing the Sustainable Power Build plan from TrainerRoad now. I've decided to step up to the high volume plan.
I need to work around the rowing sessions, so might drop or move TR sessions to keep things sane. TR has today as a rest day, I might do a gentle half hour this evening to help with recovery from Saturday, however.
Tomorrow I have a 60-minute supra-threshold intervals session, which will I imagine be quite tough. As I have an on the water rowing session in the evening, I think I'll have to do it before breakfast. :hand:
I suspect I'll skip either a bike or rowing machine session on Thursday as my predicted training stress balance for Saturday is a bit low i.e. I'll be overly fatigued for Yr Elenydd.
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Well. That was fun. A trainer that bites back. Ouch! :D
Currently using the 14 day trial of PerfPro Studio, rather than an online app. Ooohh ALL the stats!
Probably shouldn't have just guessed my FTP though :hand:.
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I don't know anything about the other software, but I can say that Zwift isn't boring - it's actually fun. I really don't mind doing 100km on it, particularly if mates are on too. However, it wants a fairly new PC, a reasonable graphics card, and a steady net connection. Even then, it can be tempting to go the full on gaming PC route for 4k graphics. I suspect those of you handy with PCs could replicate the low end alien ware box that runs zwift well quite cheaply.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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Did 'Sill' in TR this morning. Close to failing but got to the end. So FTP is probably about right.
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Ansel Adams today. With FTP at 280W that means 3 sets of 8 times 50s at 378W, with 50s rest.
Pretty tough, but do-able.
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I created a yacf team on TrainerRoad.
https://www.trainerroad.com/teams/4428-yacf
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I created a yacf team on TrainerRoad.
https://www.trainerroad.com/teams/4428-yacf
:thumbsup:
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I just finished a 14 day / 50km trial of Zwift. I don't think I'll be carrying on with it - it doesn't seem to add anything I'm looking for, and I found its control over the turbo annoying rather than helpful.
PerfPro Studio provides all the feedback and monitoring I need, and fboab can use it too (should she take up indoor cycling again) and that immediately halves its cost - which isn't that much anyway ($99 for three users).
Ultimately, I'm not looking for an "Outdoor Simulator" - I'm looking for (reasonably) accurate monitoring of structured training.
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Ultimately, I'm not looking for an "Outdoor Simulator" - I'm looking for (reasonably) accurate monitoring of structured training.
My limited experience of smart trainers is that the technology is still a long way off being "outdoor simulator" levels and you're best off using them for what they're good at, which is accurate monitoring of structured training.
I do enjoy the gamification aspect of smart trainers though. I would definitely buy a Kickr if I could afford it, or maybe even a Wattbike if I had space for it. I had a Bkool for a while and it was OK but wheel slippage is a problem. Direct drive models are definitely the way forward.
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................. PerfPro Studio provides all the feedback and monitoring I need, .......
I haven't yet managed to get PerfPRO to connect to the trainer yet. I got TrainerRoad going quite easily (thanks Simonp) and am exploring that, but the DC Rainmaker review reported favourably on PerfPRO too, so I was curious.
To be honest, both tools are way above my head at the moment, so the question's academic really, but what aspects are you focussing on in the 'monitoring' side of things.
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...but what aspects are you focussing on in the 'monitoring' side of things.
It's very early days, and I'm still working out at a very sedate level. I'm exploring ways of measuring improvements in my aerobic base. So I'm looking at things like power (virtual power, in this case), and measuring power at low (aerobic) heart rates, HR drift and decoupling factor; that kind of thing.
I'm interested in seeing the effects of extended sub-aerobic threshold (eg: Maffetone) training alongside a LCHF/Keto diet, with a view to being able to ride a non-hilly (ie, <= 1% ascent) 200 with a HR <=130 bpm (I'm usually around 150/160 on a 200).
Sorry for the wanky answer - you did ask! ;D
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...........Sorry for the wanky answer - you did ask! :-D
Not at tall; t'is interesting. You're back on the ketones then - :thumbsup:
I've finally made some progress this year, dropping a bit of weight, but I know a lot of it has been lean mass loss. I have to find a way to get the power side back up, hence the new trainer. Just have to figure out the best plan!
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In TrainerRoad I'd say the best plan to start with, if you follow one of theirs, is sweet spot base. Older riders may have to throw in additional recovery weeks and perhaps avoid the high volume plan.
Things I track:
FTP, weight, FTP/kg, maximum power at various durations, heart rate response (training has made my HR a lot slower to rise over time during sessions), total training stress - TSS (using TrainingPeaks as I can include outdoor rides and rowing on there) and the associated metrics CTL (fitness) ATL (fatigue) and TSB (form).
TSB allows me to gauge how much to train in the days leading up to an event (balancing recovery and training when tapering) and also to track recovery. To give some context, an easy hour of endurance has a TSS of around 40 and the Brevet Cymru will have a TSS of 750-800. Whilst with a TSS of 40 you're easily recovered by the next day a TSS of 450+ takes several days of recovery. TSB is negative during training and at the end of the taper for an A event it should be positive but not too high as you don't want to lose too much fitness.
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Simon have you thought about HRV as well?
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Simon have you thought about HRV as well?
No, I've not looked into that.
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Wife is clearly stressed about me being on the road following my RTA. On her says so, just sold the smart vortex and ordered a Tacx Neo. Suspect I'll be doing a lot of miles on Watopia for a while.
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I do like my Tacx Neo. I suspect that my wife's happiness with my present training is also to do with my safety inside.
I think there is a learning curve to getting really good power curves. I find that if I am starting a hard interval I will increase cadence just before the interval to get a smooth transfer into the interval.
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Similar experience on the KickR - it's a good idea to get your cadence on target before the resistance suddenly increases, rather than having to muscle through the first few seconds at too low a cadence.
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This was tonights session. http://tpks.ws/lgSV2 If you right click on the W and hide others. you will see on the first interval that i did not match properly and ended up with a big overshoot in the power. On the rest i was better.
I still drop out of the big ring on recovery as there is a different feel to spinning a 34 to a 52 ring. Therefore about 15 seconds before the interval I put it back into the big ring and the 14 tooth on the cassette. This plays around with the cadence as the resistance fluctuates to accommodate. Then I try to gently bring the cadence up as the power adjusts so that i hit the power as close to perfect as I can!!!
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....... http://tpks.ws/lgSV2 If you right click on the W and hide others.
Nothing happens when I r.click on the 'W' except an invitation to Upgrade - is that graph one that comes with the 'Premium' version?
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Just did my first FTP test since the spring. Was 67kg then, am 74kg today. Did 365w average for 20 min then (FTP 252), and 306w (FTP 291) today. All that means I've gone from 3.76 w/kg to 3.93 w/kg.
Pretty pleased with that, given the shitty week I've had. Done no training whatsoever, just ridden my bike a lot. I'm going to start on the FTP builder when my neo arrives. Maybe 4 w/kg is possible.
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Nothing happens when I r.click on the 'W' except an invitation to Upgrade - is that graph one that comes with the 'Premium' version?
Sorry left click on the W lets you hide all but the power and then you can smooth as you wish.
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I've had my Tacx iFlow for a few years but now it's dying. Resistance stays very high for first 5 - 10 minutes then suddenly starts controlling properly. Super frustrating when I've just got 45 minutes for a work-out. I've had a search online and it seems to be a problem that's often caused by bad connections on the circuit board. Opened it up to have a look today but couldn't find anything amiss. A replacement brake section is £230 so I'm thinking I might as well spend a little bit more and get something more modern. I've only ever used the iFlow off-line and I basically just like being able to set myself a routine controlled on power output - 30 second intervals with 30 sec recovery, that kind of thing.
What should I buy? I'm thinking of the Tacx Vortex as that seems to be the cheapest Smart trainer, not sure if I should be looking at the PC interface or if I'll get the functionality I need from the iPad.
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I've had my Tacx iFlow for a few years but now it's dying. Resistance stays very high for first 5 - 10 minutes then suddenly starts controlling properly. Super frustrating when I've just got 45 minutes for a work-out. I've had a search online and it seems to be a problem that's often caused by bad connections on the circuit board. Opened it up to have a look today but couldn't find anything amiss. A replacement brake section is £230 so I'm thinking I might as well spend a little bit more and get something more modern. I've only ever used the iFlow off-line and I basically just like being able to set myself a routine controlled on power output - 30 second intervals with 30 sec recovery, that kind of thing.
What should I buy? I'm thinking of the Tacx Vortex as that seems to be the cheapest Smart trainer, not sure if I should be looking at the PC interface or if I'll get the functionality I need from the iPad.
If you wait a little while, Zwift will be available on iOS. If you have a decent graphics card in a PC, just get a ant+ dongle. If you don't, a basic alienware alpha is a good option if you don't need the fancier graphics. If you want 4k ultra settings, apparently the new alienware alpha r2 runs beautifully.
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a question - is there a possibility to control the resistance of neo trainer based on the values of stages power meter readings? the reason for this is that neo shows inflated power readings (by 6-7%) and looking at them on the screen i will get used to how the effort feels based by false numbers. then on the road, where i use stages there will be too much effort to rewire my brain to process different readings for the same effort.
it might be of course that stages is under reading, but i'd rather go by it's data as that's what i see when i'm out on the road.
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I think so - I think in zwift, just make the Stages the power meter and the Neo the controllable trainer. I *think* it's as simple as that.
I'm planning to get a stages if I get a decent settlement. I'm disappointed to hear that there's a discrepancy. Is there possibility of recalibrating the Stages? The Neo has a great reputation for accuracy, and is supposed not to require any calibration.
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a question - is there a possibility to control the resistance of neo trainer based on the values of stages power meter readings? the reason for this is that neo shows inflated power readings (by 6-7%) and looking at them on the screen i will get used to how the effort feels based by false numbers. then on the road, where i use stages there will be too much effort to rewire my brain to process different readings for the same effort.
it might be of course that stages is under reading, but i'd rather go by it's data as that's what i see when i'm out on the road.
There should be an option in the app to use your power meter to control the trainer - it's mentioned at the bottom of this page: http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/204880670-Tacx-Electronic-Trainers
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There should be an option in the app to use your power meter to control the trainer - it's mentioned at the bottom of this page: http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/204880670-Tacx-Electronic-Trainers
thank you, i'd like the trainer itself to be able to pair with, accept and broadcast external power meter's values, so then it's compatible with any relevant app on the market.
or, in an ideal case all power enabled devices should be showing the true figures (i.e. as they actually are).
eta: there is still an issue with this workaround that if i swap a different bike without it's own power meter, the trainer will be working with its own (i.e. inflated) power values.
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I think so - I think in zwift, just make the Stages the power meter and the Neo the controllable trainer. I *think* it's as simple as that.
I'm planning to get a stages if I get a decent settlement. I'm disappointed to hear that there's a discrepancy. Is there possibility of recalibrating the Stages? The Neo has a great reputation for accuracy, and is supposed not to require any calibration.
stages calibrate only according to the temperature, afaik, and the value is pretty stable all the time (i've always got the same figure so far), it has 2% accuracy which is acceptable to me (if that's what it really is :) ).
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Ah, sorry Zigzag I misunderstood what you were asking. Not sure if there's a way to do what you're looking at, at least I haven't seen any way to do it when fiddling with my Neo. Might be worth emailing Tacx? They're supposed to be quite helpful.
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fwiw, their reply:
"There is always a difference. That cannot be compensated. The NEO could be more accurate to this. We have a difference ouput on the wheel with less then 1%.
If you want you can connect your stages to the software program and use that powerprofile.
Kind Regards
Tacx Support"
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TrainerRoad has their powermatch option which allows you to use the power from a power meter to control an electronic trainer which should allow you to eliminate such differences.
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TrainerRoad has their powermatch option which allows you to use the power from a power meter to control an electronic trainer which should allow you to eliminate such differences.
that is quite an easy workaround with the stages pm, however if i used a powertap hub on the road it would be a different story (no easy way to compare though! :) )
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TrainerRoad has their powermatch option which allows you to use the power from a power meter to control an electronic trainer which should allow you to eliminate such differences.
Yep, keeps it simple.
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Decided to try out zwift. Crashed 50 minutes in. The entire site, that is.
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Must have been my fault. I tried it yesterday morning as well and it worked fine. i did the "surprise me" option which was a lovely hill climb. Some sustained 12-14% ramps. I loved cycling through the snow in short sleeves.
First time I came across the road simulation on the Neo on the cobbles and a couple of wooden bridges. Seemed very interesting. Not sure how much it really added.
Overall for frosty days when you want a controlled session with no chance of drivers hitting you in low sun or coming off on black ice I thought it was excellent.
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Did you go all the way up to the lift station? I think that hits 17% in places. If you don't want to navigate yourself, choose the pretzel. It sounds like you did the mountain route.
I dont like the road feel thing - I don't mind the boardwalk, the but cobbles are too much. If it was less extreme, I wouldn't mind. On erg mode, you can see it really causes your effort to increase.
I did the Velonews podcast ride today - very cool. You start on the pier as per normal for events, but in a special Velonews kit, then when it starts a velonews podcast plays through the speakers. It was on the utility of HR in the context of power meters
http://www.velonews.com/2016/10/news/fast-talk-ep-4-myth-useless-hr-monitor_423470
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I bought a Neo about a month ago (to replace my BKool trainer) and I'm very impressed. The road feel effect is interesting, though I have a suspicion that it's not great for your bike's BB! Of course, it's disabled in Zwift's Workout mode, for which I've learned how to program CTS workouts from the Strava plans (very easy in a text editor).
Decided to try out zwift. Crashed 50 minutes in. The entire site, that is.
Zwift's servers went down for a few hours last weekend. As far as I know (I've been using it since Beta), it's the first time that's happened and sounds like what befell you. The increase in users has been stunning - it's over 3000 simultaneously in busy times now, so I'm not surprised that it cot a bit overloaded. The Zwift Devs were very quick to get an explanation and apology out; they are extremely responsive and communicative via the forums and Facebook pages, and are often found out on the course of the day.
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... in Zwift's Workout mode, for which I've learned how to program CTS workouts from the Strava plans (very easy in a text editor).
I suspect it's only a matter of time before all the coaching software exports to Zwift. When I make a plan in Today's Plan, it automagically puts each week's workouts in a subsection. If I do a one off workout, I can export it. It does the same for various platforms, including trainerroad.
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Yes, I've seen the Today's Plan workouts. But I've had to call a halt to subscribing to every cycling website - they're not as cheap as they once were! Zwift, Strava, Training Peaks and Sufferfest add up to around £350 a year, which I can afford but can't really justify. I've binned RidewithGPS, TrainerRoad and Endomondo. If Zwift ever finds a way to interface with hotel gym cycling machines, Sufferfest will go (Zwift's already about to release a running mode which will work on gym treadmills).
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I just cancelled my free 7 day trial of zwift.
Got TP, TR, and Strava.
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Yes, I've seen the Today's Plan workouts. But I've had to call a halt to subscribing to every cycling website - they're not as cheap as they once were! Zwift, Strava, Training Peaks and Sufferfest add up to around £350 a year, which I can afford but can't really justify. I've binned RidewithGPS, TrainerRoad and Endomondo. If Zwift ever finds a way to interface with hotel gym cycling machines, Sufferfest will go (Zwift's already about to release a running mode which will work on gym treadmills).
I think I'm paying £99 a year for today's plan and £8 a month for Zwift. I dropped Training Peaks and Strava. I ended up getting TP back at a basic level for coaching. On that score, I've committed to £470 of coaching and lactate testing.
I realised last year, I enjoy the everyday routne of training as much as, or even more than I enjoy audax events. I suspect by the time I factor in travel and accommodation, I'm still paying more for events than training.
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TP and TP are directly competitive, so it's just down to which format you prefer. Zwift is addictive and fun, and definitely suits me better than wet, cold, miserable rides on scoggy or frozen roads. I run a company club on Strava, and it's as much a social thing as anything else (and I wouldn't do without it any more than I would YACF) - and it interfaces with Zwift and both TPs. Sufferfest appeals to my sense of humour and works for my peripatetic lifestyle. Oh, I forgot about Connect - which is compulsory if you use a Garmin fitness tracker. Aaargh!!
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Got zwift running. I had a problem with zwift,a PC and Tacx Neo.
It seems that the computer and turbo need resetting after using trainerroad to allow zwift to take control
Managed a 100km in 3 hours on the London Classique course. Interesting riding in the rain and lightning.
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Got zwift running. I had a problem with zwift,a PC and Tacx Neo.
It seems that the computer and turbo need resetting after using trainerroad to allow zwift to take control
Managed a 100km in 3 hours on the London Classique course. Interesting riding in the rain and lightning.
Yes - if you do the manual control of resistance via fec on the garmin, if you leave it high, zwift takes that as baseline and makes everything crazy hard.
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Glibly said, but when you are in London the countryside is a ride away, with relatively little nearby that looks much like a hill.
VR is for people who enjoy toys and don't much enjoy trainers.
Move to Lancashire - you'll also gain a bedroom and spare change for a couple of shiny new bikes.
(I'm not allowed to invite southerners to Yorkshire, it's against the code)
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(I'm not allowed to invite southerners to Yorkshire, it's against the code)
I know what you mean. I escaped from the south and sneaked unbidden into Yorkshire over 40 years ago, but I still run the risk of being told 'Tha's nobbut an offcumden'.
For all that, Yorkshire folk are pretty friendly.
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Must try Zwift again, interesting how much the Trainer road UI has improved over the year since I used it last. Tried the new Sufferfest app, but it wasn't for me, I've already got enough of their vids (which they now no longer sell) and the combination with TR is better than their app. Sufferfest have effectively stopped selling the vids now, forcing people to the app.
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For all that, Yorkshire folk are pretty friendly.
My Yorkshire friend once dropped a penny. I'm not saying he's tight but, as he bent down to pick it up, it hit him on the back of the head.
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New Wattbike Atom looks interesting. Works with TrainerRoad and with Zwift, apparently.
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I've done 2 Trainer Road sessions and I'm enjoying it. Though I do need a way of holding my phone steady on the bars beyond balancing it on the bike computer (in an "out front" mount) and then using a toe strap to hold it in place!
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244 and counting for me.
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244 and counting for me.
Chapeau. I assume it's giving you noticeable improvements?
How long is that in elapsed time? Low volume (I'm time crunched, but also too new to structure to do more) is only 3 rides a week.
Cheers
Duncan
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244 and counting for me.
Chapeau. I assume it's giving you noticeable improvements?
How long is that in elapsed time? Low volume (I'm time crunched, but also too new to structure to do more) is only 3 rides a week.
Cheers
Duncan
Goes back to May 2015. I definitely do see improvements, but I recently fitted Powertap P1 pedals to the bike (which is on a KickR) and they read much lower. So I'm now using PowerMatch, and this has reduced my FTP score somewhat. Now I want a third power meter for a casting vote. :facepalm:
I'm on week two of the new Sweet Spot Base High Volume plan, this seems quite brutal and is probably pushing the limits of what I can handle.
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Goes back to May 2015. I definitely do see improvements, but I recently fitted Powertap P1 pedals to the bike (which is on a KickR) and they read much lower. So I'm now using PowerMatch, and this has reduced my FTP score somewhat. Now I want a third power meter for a casting vote. :facepalm:
I'm on week two of the new Sweet Spot Base High Volume plan, this seems quite brutal and is probably pushing the limits of what I can handle.
Sounds like you need a Stages crank (and a couple of Garmins) so you can do a full-on DC Rainmaker impression! :) 240 over 2 years sounds like it's 1 ride every 3 days. I assume if you're on high volume plans then you're taking breaks from the turbo or you'd be doing that in 1 year?
I'm just using Virtual Power and a Tacx Booster, so I have no idea about whether the power numbers I have area anywhere near accurate. I guess I could try to calibrate it by riding full throttle up a big hill and calculating back, but gradient changes make that kinda hard. It would be easier to retest on a Wattbike at the gym but that's still hassle (would have to make a special effort as I'm no longer a member). I figure I'll just try to consistently increase my Virtual Power until I can afford/justify a power meter (likely Watteam/Avio or similar).
I'm doing Sweet Spot Base low volume.
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It's erratic because I'm fitting it around rowing training, and competing at regattas. Across everything, and excluding a month off due to wisdom tooth problems, I've averaged about 8h per week between rowing, TR, and outdoor rides, for the year to date.
What I'm doing just now is when I have a rowing cardio session I tick the "outdoor ride" option in TR. The TSS is usually comparable enough.
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I definitely do see improvements, but I recently fitted Powertap P1 pedals to the bike (which is on a KickR) and they read much lower. So I'm now using PowerMatch, and this has reduced my FTP score somewhat. Now I want a third power meter for a casting vote. :facepalm:
smart trainers read higher than "real" power meters; e.g. both neo and flux read about 7% higher than stages or wattbike. however given the right conditions, ftp test outside usually gives 5-10% higher result than indoors, due to better cooling and better inertia/road feel. so the ftp number obtained on a smart trainer is still a pretty accurate reference point for training sessions.