Grammar help please!

[Paul]

Which is correct?

... also known as "mashing."

... also known as "mashing". 

Neither are correct. That is to say. both is wrong.

It is:

... also known as 'mashing'.

because you're not quoting someone (or, at least, the quoted person is not identified).

I am surprised no one pointed out to me that this is a punctuation debate, not grammar. 

And why do you not think that punctuation can't form part of a grammar debate?

[chris]

What if it was a quotation? Eg - Tarquin said

"That happened to me once too."

In thast case, perhaps it should be -

Tarquin said, "That happened to me once too.".

as Tarquin is saying a sentence, and the whole phrase is also a sentence.

[Basil]

OK.  Here's what I think is going on here.
(and please note that I am not an authority on the subject - it's just my feeling for the matter)

If we are quoting reported speach, i.e. a complete phrase.
He cast his eyes heavenwards and snarled "You're just not listening to what I say."
In this case 1st is correct.
That's a complete phrase (or what ever) and is therefore contained within the quotation marks.

Pelivic's "mashing" is not a complete phrase but is one word within the sentance.  The sentance ends with a full stop - the fact that a word within quotation marks
just happens to be the last word is neither here nor there.
In this case 2nd is correct.

Hopefully someone who knows what they are talking about will be along in a minute to explain what I meant.


And to agree or disagree.   



Edit:   Oh bugger, I think that has just been said.

Why can't I type think quicker?

[scott]

Pfft, don't want to listen to 'merkins.

< points face toward Atlantic Ocean and shouts at extreme volume >

Anything?

[Wowbagger]

Indeed. I've just been trying to find some definitive answer from my dad's old Primary School teaching text books he bought in 1947 but I gave up. 8 thick volumes to wade through.

I would say that in the example given there is no reason to put the full stop within the inverted commas. It is not a sentence and no-one is speaking.

On the other hand, I did find my grandfather's Complete H.G. Wells dated 1934. From "Mr. Britling Sees it through":-

"Did you ever see such peas, Mr. Dick?" said Mr. Britling by ay of introduction.

There the "?" is inside the quotation marks because it is part of the spoken sentence.

[rogerzilla]

Second if you're British, first if you're American.

As for single quotes vs double quotes, printed books tend to use single quotes but you should normally use double quotes for speech.

[chris]

Second if you're British, first if you're American.

As for single quotes vs double quotes, printed books tend to use single quotes but you should normally use double quotes for speech.

and if we get it wrong in our posts, are you going to throw your toys out of your Mazda?

[Jezza]

Which is correct?

... also known as "mashing."

... also known as "mashing". 

Neither are correct. That is to say. both is wrong.

It is:

... also known as 'mashing'.

because you're not quoting someone (or, at least, the quoted person is not identified).

This is dependent on the house style. Even if it isn't a direct quotation, most British publications - other than books - use double quotes as standard, and single quotes only to indicate a quote within a quote.

   

[Paul]

As for single quotes vs double quotes, printed books tend to use single quotes but you should normally use double quotes for speech.

I agree. Is it speech?

This is dependent on the house style. Even if it isn't a direct quotation, most British publications - other than books - use double quotes as standard, and single quotes only to indicate a quote within a quote.

What's a direct quotation? Is there such a thing as an indirect quotation? Surely it's either a quote (or quotation) or it's not.

Is Peli's example a quote?

[eck]

This is dependent on the house style. Even if it isn't a direct quotation, most British publications - other than books - use double quotes as standard, and single quotes only to indicate a quote within a quote.

What's a direct quotation? Is there such a thing as an indirect quotation? Surely it's either a quote (or quotation) or it's not.

Is Peli's example a quote?

Direct: Paul asked, "Is Peli's example a quote?"
Indirect: Paul asked whether Peli's example was a quote.

I think.

[Jezza]

What's a direct quotation?

Speech or dialogue exactly reproduced. 

Is there such a thing as an indirect quotation? Surely it's either a quote (or quotation) or it's not.

Well, "mashing" in this instance is not a direct quotation as it is not speech. But it would still be correct to put it in double quotes if that was the house style. The only time single quotes should be used, that being the case, would be if it was a quote within a quote:
 
"When Peli raised the question of punctuation with her example of 'mashing', she got 3 pages of replies."

Or, on some publications:

'When Peli raised the question of punctuation with her example of "mashing", she got 3 pages of replies.'

Some good examples of the perils of direct quotation here:
Quotation Marks and Direct Quotations

 

[Elleigh]

I'd say it is ..... also known as 'mashing'.  However, I would have written it as .....also know as mashing.  Just a throw back from an editor who didn't like the use of " ' "

[pcolbeck]

According to the Penguin Guide to Punctuation which sits on my desk. The second is the called the logical usage and most common in the UK whereas the first is known as the conventional usage and most common in America. The exception seems to be when one is talking about a "," when British publishers always seem to use "xxx," rather than "xxx",

[Greenbank]

In other words, whichever one you pick you'll have about half of your readers scoffing in disgust. If they even care.

Personally I'd go for the first, but then my spelling and grammar often gets confused as I have lived in the US for a couple of years and worked for and with American companies.

[Greenbank]

As internet and sms text is often a halfway house, using the immediacy of speech while using a conventional, normally thought out, proofed and corrected delivery method (the written word), my observation (or opinion) is that the increased use of quotes, poorer grammar and diabolical spelling mistakes and punctuation are symptoms of this new text-speak hybrid communication method.

2 TRU. U R SO RITE.

kthx.

[Paul]

Indirect: Paul asked whether Peli's example was a quote.

I think.

I would call that reported speach. I'm struggling with this concept of direct and indirect quotes.  I see the expression 'direct quote' is used in Jezza's link, but I couldn't find an example of an indirect quote. Lots of reported speach, but no indirect quotes.

If peli is quoting someone, then I agree it should be "... mashing". But I'd understood that she was applying the label, or the name of a phenomenon.

I think it makes a difference to the original question (where to put the .). If it's a quote, and the word 'mashing' came at the end of the sentence quoted, then there is an argument for saying "... mashing." (though I personally still prefer "mashing".).

If it's not a quote, but a label, then it must be 'mashing', or

However, I would have written it as .....also know as mashing.  Just a throw back from an editor who didn't like the use of " ' "

, which is equally correct (typo notwithstanding ).

[Frenchie]

I'm with Paul! But I only learnt English as a 2nd 3rd language, so what do I know?!

[Paul]

Some good examples of the perils of direct quotation here:
Quotation Marks and Direct Quotations

Indeed, an excellent example for this particular forum:

"The only emperor", writes Wallace Stevens, "is the emperor of ice cream."

Mr Larrington, I presume?

[Adam]

I'm another one for the second version.

However, more importantly, what is "mashing" anyway?

[Greenbank]

An IT term for making a mash up which is a web application which combines data from more than one source into a single integrated tool.

Wikipedia explains it quite well:-

Mashup (web application hybrid) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So even something like bikely.com could be considered a mashup as it takes the Google Maps API and allows you to do more with it that Google Maps can do. Save routes, make them public, annotate them, etc.

It's one aspect of "Web 2.0" (an equally hideous phrase) which uninformed people keep banging on about. To the informed it's just using and combining stuff to make new/cleverer stuff.

[alan]

My understanding of mashing is the practice of brewing tea during a rest break when out cycling.

[frankly frankie]

An IT term for making a mash up which is a web application which combines data from more than one source into a single integrated tool.

"The whole is greater than the sum of the parts."

"2+2!=4"

etc,
NB -
I vote for version 2, I can't believe any literate person (I don't count journalists) would vote for version 1.

[Andrew Br]

My understanding of mashing is the practice of brewing tea during a rest break when out cycling.

I thought we were talking potatoes. Or is it potatos ? Or potato's ? Potatos' ?
Confused now. Maybe I should ask Dan Quayle.

[velocipede]

The late great Sheldon Brown defines it thus:

"Masher
A cyclist who habitually pedals hard in a high gear, at a slow cadence. The opposite of a "spinner." The "mashing" style is likely to cause knee injuries and leg cramps."

I hope I have got the punctuation correct, and note that he places a full stop inside quotation marks at one point. This could be an example of the transatlantic style I would suppose?

I have always had a great deal of trouble with the place of the semi-colon; but that is a whole new can of worms...... !

[rogerzilla]

Indeed, an excellent example for this particular forum:

"The only emperor", writes Wallace Stevens, "is the emperor of ice cream."

Mr Larrington, I presume?

GruB.