Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?

[LEE]

To the OP:

It Depends.

[Pneumant]

OP here...........

I really did not think that this topic would arouse such feelings, by no stretch of the imagination am I a 'bright clothing  fascist' , in the summer I wear blue and red a lot on the bicycle (shorts always in black though!)  and my motorbike leathers are as black as tar too.

I just think that bright clothing on a gloomy winter's day makes a lot of sense. I don't think that the counter arguments here have swayed me one bit however, even though I DO respect your opinions.

A good lively discussion though and that is a sign of a good healthy forum 

 

[Wendy]

exactly; even if it may be safer in some circumstances it just pisses off many drivers who are in a hurry (often to go to a garden centre);
...
 wearing black often adds to their prejudices that we are arrogant bastards who don't pay road tax.

I think both of these statements show more about your own thoughts rather than those of drivers.  We all ride less than ideally at times, and it's most likely your considerable experience and skill together with how safe cycling is that lets you get away with it.

I forgot to add, that the little of your cycling I saw some time ago was actually pretty "cyclecraft".

[Dave]

The main problem is that drivers don't look for cyclists.  Where I work, everyone knows I cycle, and a few people have commented to me how much more they notice cyclists now.

Is the right answer. The more people cycle and the more people who know people who cycle, the safer it gets. "They" may not like cyclists any better, but if they (sub)consciously know there are always cyclists around they are much more likely to be looking out for them.

[Mr Larrington]

Why is it only ever cyclists, motorcyclists, horseriders, roadworkers who have to be inconvenienced/made to dress up?

Because they are the vulnerable ones. Why is it such a big deal?

Because no-one ever seems to suggest it for cars. It's always everyone else's problem.

As has been pointed out in this thread, car:car SMIDSYs also happen, so where's the "campaign" to have hi-viz on the front of cars?

The EU proposal for daytime running lights: EU resurrects daytime running lights plan  - Telegraph?

[Martin]

exactly; even if it may be safer in some circumstances it just pisses off many drivers who are in a hurry (often to go to a garden centre);
...
 wearing black often adds to their prejudices that we are arrogant bastards who don't pay road tax.

I think both of these statements show more about your own thoughts rather than those of drivers.  We all ride less than ideally at times, and it's most likely your considerable experience and skill together with how safe cycling is that lets you get away with it.

I forgot to add, that the little of your cycling I saw some time ago was actually pretty "cyclecraft".

it's the line that you should ride in the same position as a car driver sits that makes no sense to me; even though it makes make perfect sense that's just saying "I'm in the road even though you are 3 times faster than me so you will have to wait, Nerr" car drivers do not on the whole spend all day waiting for a safe spot and then overtaking slower moving cars so they would not expect to do the same for cyclists. A couple of weeks ago up in Herts I was doing exactly what was recommended; riding 1m from the kerb approaching a bend; the 4 x4 behind me could not be arsed to wait 5 seconds so overtook me forcing an oncoming car (which I had heard long before so I could anticipate it) off the road and up the bank. If I'd been in the PRP he'd have probably done a head-on (and the Bill would probably have blamed me) This twat wouldn't know cyclecraft if it came up and kissed him 

Anyway; I'm just off out along that very road in my vomitsplash AUK top; anyone who doesn't see that needs a sight test 

[Wendy]

And that shows the misunderstanding you have of Cyclecraft, IMO.  I'm not sure why you're interpreting it like that, but that's not what John Franklin intends.

[ed_o_brain]

What position would you be in after the bend? In the gutter where the idiot drivers like your 4x4 driver won't see you soon enough because they are going too fast and then strike you with their near side front wing/wing mirrors?

Or do you move further out so the you come into the drivers line of site sooner?

In exactly this riding further out has made the driver swerve to try and avoid me and I've moved further in to actually give him/her chance of passing me not striking me. The fact that they have had to swerve means they have not seen me until it's too late. Further left and they would not have seen me until later still and I would have had no where to go in order to avoid a collision.

On the far left, you don't register. Drivers field of vision narrows. And it narrows further the faster they go. I've tried cycling more slowly and more submissively. It's seems a sure way to encourage the overtake and turn left manoeuvre. And in my early days, riding two far into the gutter resulted in a driver colliding with a bollard on a central refuge and another driver scrubbing her paintwork with my panniers on the narrow approach to a mini roundabout.

If it's not safe to overtake, it's not safe to overtake. It doesn't inconvenience people. When driving I always pass cyclists with plenty of care and it makes absolute bugger all difference to my journey time.

[Martin]

I take your point about being in their line of sight sooner but sorry but I've been overtaken enough times whilst cycling two abreast to know that there are enough drivers out there who don't even register when it's safe to overtake and just drive past at their normal speed whether cyclists are there or not.

[Wendy]

That implies that you don't take appropriate action as soon as it becomes clear that you need to correct for the driver's mistake.  I'm not sure I'd ride two abreast on a blind corner/rise either.  As David said so well up-thread, it's limiting your options.

I'm with Ed on being out there and in the driver's eye sooner.  I'd also say that being out there causes drivers to ease off and slow down, even if not as much as you'd want them to.  It's just like the old dichotomy of a narrow road with parked cars both sides, and an oncoming driver with only enough room for one car.  It's *always* better to be in the middle of the available space, to wait out there until the driver is close, and then to duck left and avoid them at the last safe moment.  So many cyclists stay too far left or go left too early, and get a bum's rush from the car driver, whilst staying out makes them slow and pass you safely and more carefully.

[Martin]

well I just went out on mostly bendy B roads to Horsham and back; no matter where I rode in the road 90% of drivers just went straight past me on bends having to swerve back in to avoid oncoming vehicles.

It's all very well writing a book about how vehicles perceive cyclists but the reality is often different which is pretty much my whole take on the subject; not saying it's not theoretically right.

(and yes when out 2 abreast we do often single up on bends;making overtaking no easier as we are a longer entity to have to pass but they still do anyway horns blaring)

[phil d]

I admit that I have not read a lot of the posts in this thread.  It may well have been said already, but here is my take on the topic.  So far as poor drivers are concerned, the colour / visibility of a cyclist's clothing will make no significant difference.  But light (or hi-viz) might make it easier for a good driver to see me more easily.  So for that reason alone, I am perfectly happy to wear a bright yellow jacket in any reduced-visibility conditions.  And continue to ride as if all drivers are of the "poor" category, though I know full well most of them are not.

[nuttycyclist]

Since we're heading OT slightly, I'll continue the detour.

I had a play a couple of weeks ago with positioning.  As regular readers will know I too have a 'dislike' for 'primary position' as I feel it is an unnecessary obstruction of traffic.



I was on a 70mph dual carriageway, so started experimenting.

Position	Outcome
Centre of lane 1	All traffic changed lanes to overtake
In polished nearside tyre line	All traffic changed lanes to overtake
Tyres 2 inches to the right of the white edge line	All traffic changed lanes to overtake
Tyres 2 inches to the left of the white edge line	All traffic pushed past in lane 1

These results were consistent each time I took the described position.



Therefore I'm staying with riding as I always do, in a position in the lane that is convenient to me and that encourages vehicles to pull out to overtake.

btw, I wasn't wearing hi-viz when riding the above.  It was an average December day during daylight hours, but I didn't really make any notes on that as at the time I was only interested in position and its effects.

[Wendy]

It's all very well writing a book about how vehicles perceive cyclists but the reality is often different which is pretty much my whole take on the subject; not saying it's not theoretically right.

My whole point is that reality isn't at all different from what is in Cyclecraft.  It is eminently applicable to your riding situation as well as to many different ones in the UK, and John Franklin does a very good job of covering possibilities and the appropriate strategies for each.  If I remember correctly you hadn't read the book.

I remember posting a topic on this back on the old place.  Not a single person could up up with any particular situation where Cyclecraft was wrong, and there was only one alternative solution for one situation proposed by Nutty.  His solution was well thought out, and arguably either slightly better or worse than the Cyclecraft one, but both could be taken as very acceptable.

Every time I've seen criticism of Cyclecraft, it comes down to either not having read the detail/understood it, or alpha ego "I won't be told how to ride" stuff.  Not one situation has been presented to show where cyclecraft gets it wrong.

[urban_biker]

was on a 70mph dual carriageway, so started experimenting.

Position Outcome
Centre of lane 1  All traffic changed lanes to overtake

You are a very brave man. I don't think I'd be happy riding primary of a stretch of dual carriageway

[nuttycyclist]

Brave?   Nah - just completely nutty 



I did keep an eye in the mirrors though 

[ed_o_brain]

Brave?   Nah - just completely nutty 



I did keep an eye in the mirrors though 

I've ridden quite a few 70 mph dual carriageways. On a quiet morning, the A5 around Shrewsbury, I took primary in the left hand lane. Everything moved over into lane 2 to pass.

Then the A5 near Tamworth. I rode in the hardstrip. It was as scary as hell as most drivers didn't even move over, not even to the right hand side of the left lane, and I had to cross rumble strips at each junction.

I cycled on the A34 Manchester to Wilmslow regularly for a while. I generally rode in secondary position, and some drivers (roughly 1 or 2 in every five) would still squeeze by in the left hand lane. Some surprisingly when the right hand lane was clear. This was 40 and 50 mph restricted.

If I see a cyclist on a DC I always wait until I can move fully over into the right hand lane before overtaking. It would just be cool if other cyclists would do the same.

Cyclists stand out on fast DCs  as they are uncommonly sited on them. The only way they aren't seen is if drivers are not looking. IMHO