Catching Real Criminals

[Phil]

I'm pretty sure the detail of whether or not it's recommended is academic as the officers on the ground wouldn't have known the intimate detail of Yuba's recommendations, as they don't have such easy access to Google as Regulator.  The fact is that the bike was designed for carrying passengers, and as anybody who's had a ride on one knows, is perfectly safe for such a purpose.  

But it's widely believed among motorists (and by extension police, although they ought to know better) that carrying children on a bicycle is grossly negligent.  Wasn't there a thread a while back about a mother carrying her kid on a child-specific carrier who was stopped by police and asked to tie him on?

[clarion]

I'm familiar with the Yuba - there are about 4 in regular use around York, 2 for carrying kids.

The normal running board is a long way down, small kids couldn't reach it. If you look at the Yuba site, all the pics of small kids on bikes have them sat on child seats

Not so.  The pic you highlighted is from the Yuba site.  Two children on one Yuba.  

Therefore legal.

Sensible without other precautions?  A different matter.

But legal.

[delthebike]

Illegal? Yes. Dangerous? If I thought so I wouldn't have done it.

Uncomfortable? Probably. Did it have the wooden shelf on the rack, it seems to be an accessory rather than fitted as standard?

[geraldc]

I think it's fine to carry an adult on a unmodified yuba (and have done myself many times), they can grab the rack and their feet touch the running board. Kids, I'd exercise a little more caution.

I'd use the same rules as a pillion on a motor bike, a rail to grab, and their feet must reach the footrest.

[phil d]

I think Reg is right.  To comply with UK law the bike must be specifically adapted to carry a passenger.  This would indicate the need for (at the least) a seat (not a board) and somewhere to place the feet.  I should have thought that for anyone more than a toddler in a "strapped-in" seat something to hold onto would also be required.  Being considered legal or appropriate in the US does not make it legal here.

Usefully, an article on this very topic in latest Cycle mag.

[Regulator]

In fact, mrcharly, that photo is not of the bike mentioned in the article,  but from the slideshow photos on the Yuba homepage, showing two kids on the back of a Yuba carrying panniers.

Which leads me to posit that Regulator's suggestion is unsubstantiated.

From p. 15 of the Yuba Mundo Owner's Manual:

"Children

The user of this product acknowledges both an understanding and an assumption of the risks involved in
cycling, cycling with cargo, and cycling with a passenger. Children incapable of riding a bike on their own or
under the age of 6 should not ride on the Mundo Cargo Bicycle as passengers, unless it's equipped with an
approved Child Seat accessory. Children should not ride as passengers without an adult operating the Mundo
Cargo Bicycle."

And from p.16:

"Carrying passenger and children

Carrying passengers by bicycle is subject to limitations and regulations in most countries. Check local traffic and regulations to learn more and comply with the law.

Carrying children on a bicycle should only be done when using approved and certified child seat and equipment. Please call us or visit the nearest bicycle dealer for more information."

[Phil]

From page 8 of the same manual:

For your safety, always wear a helmet

Doesn't mean it's the law.

[Regulator]

From page 8 of the same manual:

For your safety, always wear a helmet

Doesn't mean it's the law.

But p16 is Yuba clearly telling you that you should comply with the law in the relevant jurisdiction.  The law in the UK is that you cannot carry passengers on a bike unless it is specifically designed for it or appropriately adapted.

Yuba then go on to say that the bike should not be used to transport children without using the appropriate adaptations - i.e. the bike is not specifically designed to carry children.  Unlike a Bakfiets, for example,  it does not meet UK (and EU) legal requirements without adaptation.

Unfortunately, you have to be registerd and 'approved' to post on BikeBiz, so their incorrect interpretation of the law won't be corrected by me...  

[delthebike]

How do the Dutch get away with a passenger sitting side saddle on, what appears to be, a standard rear rack? Holding onto the rider/seat post or knitting. 
Can't Mum X say it's what the Dutch do and as we're all in the EU we can do that here?

[Regulator]

How do the Dutch get away with a passenger sitting side saddle on, what appears to be, a standard rear rack? Holding onto the rider/seat post or knitting.  
Can't Mum X say it's what the Dutch do and as we're all in the EU we can do that here?

Luckily, road safety is still a matter for nation states...  would you really want drivers doing whatever speed they like on motorways saying "Well, they can in Germany"?  

EDIT:  I've just checked.  The Netherlands have basically  the same rules as us.  It is an offence to have a passenger on a bike unless it specifically designed for passengers or appropriately adapted.  Since 1990 only children younger than eight years old can be carried on a bicycle and they must have an approved seat with support for their hands, feet and back.

[Phil]

But p15 is Yuba clearly telling you that you should comply with the law in the relevant jurisdiction.  The law in the UK is that you cannot carry passengers on a bike unless it is specifically designed for it or appropriately adapted.

I just went to take a closer look at page 15 of the Yuba owner's manual.  This is all it says about carrying children:

Children
The user of this product acknowledges both an understanding and an assumption of the risks involved in cycling, cycling with cargo, and cycling with a passenger. Children incapable of riding a bike on their own or under the age of 6 should not ride on the Mundo Cargo Bicycle as passengers, unless it's equipped with an approved Child Seat accessory. Children should not ride as passengers without an adult operating the Mundo Cargo Bicycle.

(original formatting)

[Regulator]

But p15 is Yuba clearly telling you that you should comply with the law in the relevant jurisdiction.  The law in the UK is that you cannot carry passengers on a bike unless it is specifically designed for it or appropriately adapted.

I just went to take a closer look at page 15 of the Yuba owner's manual.  This is all it says about carrying children:

Children
The user of this product acknowledges both an understanding and an assumption of the risks involved in cycling, cycling with cargo, and cycling with a passenger. Children incapable of riding a bike on their own or under the age of 6 should not ride on the Mundo Cargo Bicycle as passengers, unless it's equipped with an approved Child Seat accessory. Children should not ride as passengers without an adult operating the Mundo Cargo Bicycle.

(original formatting)

I spotted I'd put the wrong page reference and amended my post...

[Honest John]

She wasn't breaking any law. ...

Yes she was - Bikebiz are wrong in their assertion that she wasn't.  You are only permitted to carry passengers on a cycle that has been specifically designed or adapted for the purpose.  To do otherwise is an offence.

Her Yuba had not been specifically adapted - in fact the Yuba people say that you shouldn't carry passengers unless the bike has been adapated (with the Peanut Shell seat and the passenger accessories, Hold-On safety bar or the SoftSpot padded seat).  She simply had the wooden shelf on the back.

As for the other suggestion she says they made, I think I would treat her account with some scepticism at this time.

That said, I think the police should simply have suggested that she get the appropriate adaptions done, for her safety and that of her children, and then sent her on her way.  

Errr... Are you suggesting that yer average Plod is familiar with the Yuba range of bicycles and accessories to the extent of knowing the items needed to make this machine legal? How were the police to know that the arrangements the rider made were not compliant with the law?

[Honest John]

But it's widely believed among motorists (and by extension police, although they ought to know better) that carrying children on a bicycle is grossly negligent.

This looks more like the heart of the matter.

Ignorant Plod assumes carrying kids on bikes is dangerous, and therefore must be illegal. Said IP probably also thinks h*lm*t-wearing is compulsory.

I more and more think it would be a good idea for every driver to have to cycle a considerable distance - say 500km over a year - before being allowed to take a driving test.

For police drivers - 2000km in a year.

Something must be done!

Won't someone think of the children!

[Regulator]

She wasn't breaking any law. ...

Yes she was - Bikebiz are wrong in their assertion that she wasn't.  You are only permitted to carry passengers on a cycle that has been specifically designed or adapted for the purpose.  To do otherwise is an offence.

Her Yuba had not been specifically adapted - in fact the Yuba people say that you shouldn't carry passengers unless the bike has been adapated (with the Peanut Shell seat and the passenger accessories, Hold-On safety bar or the SoftSpot padded seat).  She simply had the wooden shelf on the back.

As for the other suggestion she says they made, I think I would treat her account with some scepticism at this time.

That said, I think the police should simply have suggested that she get the appropriate adaptions done, for her safety and that of her children, and then sent her on her way.  

Errr... Are you suggesting that yer average Plod is familiar with the Yuba range of bicycles and accessories to the extent of knowing the items needed to make this machine legal? How was she to know that the arrangements the rider made were not compliant with the law?

I'm not suggesting that at all.  Most police officer will know that you cannot carry passengers on a bicycle unless it is specifically designed for that (e.g. a Bakfiets) or has been adapted (e.g. has a child seat).  As this women didn't have child seats, I can understand why the officer believed she was not complying with the law.

As I said, I think the police should have just had words and sent her on her way... but I do wonder whether she failed the attitude test.

[Honest John]

She wasn't breaking any law. ...

Yes she was - Bikebiz are wrong in their assertion that she wasn't.  You are only permitted to carry passengers on a cycle that has been specifically designed or adapted for the purpose.  To do otherwise is an offence.

Her Yuba had not been specifically adapted - in fact the Yuba people say that you shouldn't carry passengers unless the bike has been adapated (with the Peanut Shell seat and the passenger accessories, Hold-On safety bar or the SoftSpot padded seat).  She simply had the wooden shelf on the back.

As for the other suggestion she says they made, I think I would treat her account with some scepticism at this time.

That said, I think the police should simply have suggested that she get the appropriate adaptions done, for her safety and that of her children, and then sent her on her way.  

Errr... Are you suggesting that yer average Plod is familiar with the Yuba range of bicycles and accessories to the extent of knowing the items needed to make this machine legal? How was she to know that the arrangements the rider made were not compliant with the law?

I'm not suggesting that at all.  Most police officer will know that you cannot carry passengers on a bicycle unless it is specifically designed for that (e.g. a Bakfiets) or has been adapted (e.g. has a child seat).  As this women didn't have child seats, I can understand why the officer believed she was not complying with the law.

As I said, I think the police should have just had words and sent her on her way... but I do wonder whether she failed the attitude test.

Sorry, but the ways of safely and legally carrying children on a bicycle are so many and various - BS-approved child seats are not the only safe and legal way - that the police were seriously out of line.

They saw an unusual human powered vehicle and assumed it must be illegal. See also my last post.

This reminds me of the harmless middle-class couple in Herne Hill who were threatened with social workers because they encouraged their children to cycle to school, just like I did.

[Regulator]

She wasn't breaking any law. ...

Yes she was - Bikebiz are wrong in their assertion that she wasn't.  You are only permitted to carry passengers on a cycle that has been specifically designed or adapted for the purpose.  To do otherwise is an offence.

Her Yuba had not been specifically adapted - in fact the Yuba people say that you shouldn't carry passengers unless the bike has been adapated (with the Peanut Shell seat and the passenger accessories, Hold-On safety bar or the SoftSpot padded seat).  She simply had the wooden shelf on the back.

As for the other suggestion she says they made, I think I would treat her account with some scepticism at this time.

That said, I think the police should simply have suggested that she get the appropriate adaptions done, for her safety and that of her children, and then sent her on her way.  

Errr... Are you suggesting that yer average Plod is familiar with the Yuba range of bicycles and accessories to the extent of knowing the items needed to make this machine legal? How was she to know that the arrangements the rider made were not compliant with the law?

I'm not suggesting that at all.  Most police officer will know that you cannot carry passengers on a bicycle unless it is specifically designed for that (e.g. a Bakfiets) or has been adapted (e.g. has a child seat).  As this women didn't have child seats, I can understand why the officer believed she was not complying with the law.

As I said, I think the police should have just had words and sent her on her way... but I do wonder whether she failed the attitude test.

Sorry, but the ways of safely and legally carrying children on a bicycle are so many and various - BS-approved child seats are not the only safe and legal way - that the police were seriously out of line.

I didn't say that - "e.g." = for example.

They saw and unusual human powered vehicle and assumed it must be illegal. See also my last post.

...

Now you're making assumptions - on the basis of a one-sided and factually incorrect report on a trade web-site...

[Honest John]

She wasn't breaking any law. ...

Yes she was - Bikebiz are wrong in their assertion that she wasn't.  You are only permitted to carry passengers on a cycle that has been specifically designed or adapted for the purpose.  To do otherwise is an offence.

Her Yuba had not been specifically adapted - in fact the Yuba people say that you shouldn't carry passengers unless the bike has been adapated (with the Peanut Shell seat and the passenger accessories, Hold-On safety bar or the SoftSpot padded seat).  She simply had the wooden shelf on the back.

As for the other suggestion she says they made, I think I would treat her account with some scepticism at this time.

That said, I think the police should simply have suggested that she get the appropriate adaptions done, for her safety and that of her children, and then sent her on her way.  

Errr... Are you suggesting that yer average Plod is familiar with the Yuba range of bicycles and accessories to the extent of knowing the items needed to make this machine legal? How was she to know that the arrangements the rider made were not compliant with the law?

I'm not suggesting that at all.  Most police officer will know that you cannot carry passengers on a bicycle unless it is specifically designed for that (e.g. a Bakfiets) or has been adapted (e.g. has a child seat).  As this women didn't have child seats, I can understand why the officer believed she was not complying with the law.

As I said, I think the police should have just had words and sent her on her way... but I do wonder whether she failed the attitude test.

Sorry, but the ways of safely and legally carrying children on a bicycle are so many and various - BS-approved child seats are not the only safe and legal way - that the police were seriously out of line.

I didn't say that - "e.g." = for example.

They saw and unusual human powered vehicle and assumed it must be illegal. See also my last post.

...

Now you're making assumptions - on the basis of a one-sided and factually incorrect report on a trade web-site...

Then why did they stop her? Was it any of their business? And Bikebiz is not noted for exaggeration and hyperbole i.e it's usually fairly boring. In fact, their line could, if they're a trade medium, be that readers should stock up on all the manufacturer-approved items recommended for this machine. Either they're missing a trick or they're genuinely surprised and annoyed at this unnecessary and overbearing police behaviour.

[Tewdric]

Seems that the City of London Police I have too much time on their my hands, yet not enough to actually learn about the law:

FTFY  

The most sensible thing to say is that none of us were there and it's impossible to make any meaningful judgements about this sort of thing without knowing the full circumstances.

[Wendy]

What a stupid police officer!!!  I struggle to think of a bike better suited to carrying children than a yuba.  The fact that she suggests riding on the pavement is a good idea tells all about this policewoman's lack of clue, IMO.

[GruB]

24 Restriction of carriage of persons on bicycles.
(1)Not more than one person may be carried on a road on a bicycle not propelled by mechanical power unless it is constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than one person.
(2)In this section—
(a)references to a person carried on a bicycle include references to a person riding the bicycle, and
(b)“road” includes bridleway.
(3)If a person is carried on a bicycle in contravention of subsection (1) above, each of the persons carried is guilty of an offence.

The moot question here is whether the degree of modification is sufficient fall within the intention of the law.

Time for his or her Honour to make a decision me thinks.

[spindrift]

If I was the cyclist, I wouldn't press the point. Probably a lacking in my moral fibre but I wouldn't ignore a copper and carry on to make a point. Best advice with Johnny Law is be polite, comply, and get rid as soon as possible. After the Norwich bike ride yesterday I saw my local bike mechanic ride past the pub with his dog in a flat bed wooden trailer. The dog looked perfectly content. No helmet.

[clarion]

...constructed or adapted, Grub.

Not about modification at all.

[clarion]

Seems that the City of London Police I have too much time on their my hands, yet not enough to actually learn about the law:

FTFY 

The most sensible thing to say is that none of us were there and it's impossible to make any meaningful judgements about this sort of thing without knowing the full circumstances.

Thank you for your opinion, Tewdric.  However, I believe I have demonstrated I am well aware of what the law is on this matter.  As cited by Grub.

And, over the twenty or so years I have been reading articles in various media by Carlton Reid, I have found him to be a balanced and reliable reporter.  Please note the comment where he states he has been trying to contact CLP to get a statement.

[GruB]

...constructed or adapted, Grub.

Not about modification at all.

modify
verb
1. change, reform, vary, convert, transform, alter, adjust, adapt, revise, remodel, rework, tweak (informal), reorganize, recast, reshape, redo, refashion They agreed to modify their recruitment policy.