Author Topic: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity  (Read 13350 times)

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« on: 20 February, 2009, 10:45:13 am »
I know some of you ignore Pub/Politics, but you still might be interested in this.

New trains
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #1 on: 23 February, 2009, 08:31:49 am »
Further e-mail.  Not much more useful info, but a link to the train specification used by Agility.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: enquiries@agilitytrains.com
To:   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
enquiries@agilitytrains.com
Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you very much for contacting the Agility Trains Consortium and for your interest in the recent announcement that Agility Trains is the preferred bidder for the Intercity Express Programme (IEP).

The Hitachi Super Express train concept design, that formed the central part of our bid, has been optimised to provide the best overall whole-life value-for-money for the UK railway and to comply with the Train Technical Specification published by the DfT.  As specified, many of the internal features of the train are designed to be customised by the Train Operating Companies, to best meet the requirements of their franchise and their passengers.  This includes features like seat pitch, the number of tables verses the number of airline style seats, the number of toilets, the bicycle storage capacity and the catering facilities.  The Hitachi Super Express train complies with the Train Technical Specification, to the extent that all these features are available for the Train Operating Companies to select.  Agility Trains will be engaging with the Train Operating Companies in the coming months to finalise the train specification for each of the routes and more details will be released as they are agreed.

The Train Technical Specification is available to download from the DfT website: Department for Transport - Intercity Express Programme

Please accept my apologies for not being able to provide you a more specific answer at this stage, but we would ask you to be patient.  The announcement last week was just our selection as preferred bidder and we expect it will take several months to finalise the contract negotiations.

Kind regards,

Alistair Dormer
Chief Executive Officer
Agility Trains
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #2 on: 18 December, 2015, 10:46:00 am »
BBC article about the new trains.

Still no info on whether cycle carrying capacity will be maintained in comparison with the Intercity 125, or whether it'll be more like the hated Adalante (glorified turbo with very squeaky brakes), where there are limited hanging spaces.

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #3 on: 18 December, 2015, 11:29:11 am »
No point having flashy trains till the entire network is upgraded to have higher speed limits. So they won't do this and buy trains that has the same speed limits. I can't help feel that the network upgrading should take place first.

Kim

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Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #4 on: 18 December, 2015, 12:56:32 pm »
I was one of the CTC group of cyclists who tested the bike spaces on the IEP prototype.  The train design is modular, with slot-in units in the vestibule area chosen by the individual TOCs that provide toilets, bike space, catering storage, etc.

The bike space module is a dangly space that (handlebars permitting) accommodates two bikes.  It fits my Streetmachine (1.9m long) without trouble, and will just about take a tandem if you remove both wheels and play advanced tetris with the bits.  It's marginally less annoying than the space on CrossCountry Voyagers, as you have access to the space from two sides.  Closest equivalent I've come across in real life is the bike space on Virgin Voyagers.  During testing, we suggested refinements to the hook system that might reduce handlebar clashes, but I've no idea if anything came of that.  (I also got in an extensive dig about cyclists with disabilities, and that hanging spaces discriminate against short people, particularly women and children.)

TOCs get to decide how many of these modules are fitted to their trains, so there isn't a fixed answer to bike capacity, but it's clearly a retrograde step compared to the HSTs.

The IEP luggage racks are apparently sized to take an integer number (I forget what) of Bromptons.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #5 on: 18 December, 2015, 05:05:11 pm »
HSTs only take 6 and on summer mornings they are full going out of London - you really have to book, although the booking system isn't enforced at all stations so if someone has sneaked an extra bike on at Paddington you might be SOL at Didcot Parkway unless you locate the offending bike and sling it out  :demon:.  I remember when you could fit a practically unlimited number in the guard's compartment on most trains but, since the railway stopped being a major parcels carrier, guard's compartments are gone.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #6 on: 18 December, 2015, 06:25:14 pm »
but, since the railway stopped being a major parcels carrier, guard's compartments are gone.
Except Liverpool Street to Norwich and East Coast Main Line.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #7 on: 18 December, 2015, 06:31:46 pm »
I remember riding to Cheltenham from Stroud sometime in the 80s, getting caught in an almighty thunderstorm and deciding to take the train home. Went to the guard's van to get my bike and... it wasn't there! Two other bikes were, but not mine. Panic! "Yours is in the other van," said the guard. Yes, two guards vans on one small train.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #8 on: 18 December, 2015, 07:06:33 pm »
I do not think that you have much chance of getting a trice in the new train's so if I want to do a ride in/from Cornwall it will probably have to be next year .
the slower you go the more you see

Kim

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Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #9 on: 18 December, 2015, 07:11:41 pm »
I do not think that you have much chance of getting a trice in the new train's so if I want to do a ride in/from Cornwall it will probably have to be next year .

It was a while ago now, but you might just get one in folded, on its side, preferably bagged, and without another bike sharing the space.  But it'll doubtlessly fall foul of TOC cycle policy, so I agree with that assessment. :(

Karla

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Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #10 on: 19 December, 2015, 12:25:46 am »
Kim, is the bike storage on these new trains such that I can sneak a bike on and then deal with the guard later if they object to my travelling without a reservation, a la Voyager, or is it such that I  have to locate a compliant member of train staff and persuade them to let me on - when they may be absent whether or not I've got a reservation - a la the current ECML stock?

Kim

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Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #11 on: 19 December, 2015, 12:30:21 am »
Kim, is the bike storage on these new trains such that I can sneak a bike on and then deal with the guard later if they object to my travelling without a reservation, a la Voyager, or is it such that I  have to locate a compliant member of train staff and persuade them to let me on - when they may be absent whether or not I've got a reservation - a la the current ECML stock?

The bike space is in the vestibule, like on a Voyager.  I expect it'll attract Luggages and bin bags, like on a Voyager.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #12 on: 19 December, 2015, 12:40:18 am »
Thanks  :thumbsup:

I quite like Voyagers, for the reasons I just stated.  Even when they were Virgin and I theoretically had to get a reservation (as opposed to XC's 2 reservations plus one free space, for which 'I'm Spartacus'), they were the easiest for me plus a standard bike.  I can see them being less good than the old stock for anyone on a tandem, downwrong or triceratops though.

Kim

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Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #13 on: 19 December, 2015, 12:47:32 pm »
Thanks  :thumbsup:

I quite like Voyagers, for the reasons I just stated.  Even when they were Virgin and I theoretically had to get a reservation (as opposed to XC's 2 reservations plus one free space, for which 'I'm Spartacus'), they were the easiest for me plus a standard bike.  I can see them being less good than the old stock for anyone on a tandem, downwrong or triceratops though.

Downwrongs are fine, unless particularly low or configured for a rider of Larringtonian proportions without the aid of quick releases.  Trikes and tandems are forbidden by policy on CrossCountry, irrespective of how they fit.  It's mountain bikes[1] and city bikes that are the real problem, on account of the extra-wide handlebars.  Turn up with your reservation to find someone's put one of those in the double-hanger and you're stuffed.


[1] Have you seen the width of modern MTB bars?  Bonkers.

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #14 on: 21 December, 2015, 10:04:17 am »
Such things could perhaps be sorted by a requirement to turn your handlebars through 90 deg, if only everyone could be relied on to have the right allen key!

Kim

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Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #15 on: 21 December, 2015, 01:05:22 pm »
Such things could perhaps be sorted by a requirement to turn your handlebars through 90 deg, if only everyone could be relied on to have the right allen key!

I'd say that's as unreasonable as expecting someone to remove their mudguards for a group ride.  These things are safety-critical, and requiring non-expert users to fettle them mid journey is objectionable on general principle, and a barrier to cycle use.  The CTC recently launched a successful campaign against Eurostar requiring just this sort of thing.

Which isn't to say that it's a bad idea if you're a technically competent cyclist with a wide-barred bike, but it does add to the faff of loading and unloading.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #16 on: 21 December, 2015, 01:41:48 pm »
Recently I happened to see (in a non-geeky way, honestly!) a British Rail training video from the late '70s. The idea of the video was telling customer-facing staff (long before railways had customers or any staff were described as anything-facing, of course) not to be grumpy (insert quip about the 1970s, nationalised industries and Soviet tendencies) but it happened to show a member of staff (a porter? did they still have official porters then?) pushing a trolley loaded with suitcases. A huge trolley like the things that get loaded on to planes. Which I think shows us both how passengers are expected to take control of their own luggage much more than they were and how there is less space for that luggage: no dedicated luggage coaches now. But people are (threads passim) flabbier and probably take more stuff with them (because we have more stuff!). Thus suitcases in bike areas.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #17 on: 21 December, 2015, 01:48:03 pm »
You can still book assistance and (presumably) have them fail to turn up[1] to help you with your bags, if necessary, but the demise of trolleys (and corresponding rise of wheeled Luggages and unfolded pushchairs) is suboptimal.

And while British Rail were mostly interested in running a train set, the current TOCs are mostly interested in commuters.  So luggage space is an afterthought.


[1] They don't turn up reliably for blind people or wheelchair users, so I don't see why they'd be any different for someone unable to carry their bags.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #18 on: 21 December, 2015, 01:59:10 pm »
With a lot of stations being unstaffed now, I'd imagine booking assistance for anything could be rather tricky.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #19 on: 21 December, 2015, 02:17:34 pm »
With a lot of stations being unstaffed now, I'd imagine booking assistance for anything could be rather tricky.

It's usually not too bad.
Terminals in That London have designated places and train staff can be advised in advance. Trains are not (yet) unstaffed.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #20 on: 21 December, 2015, 02:33:16 pm »
Some are driver only, or so I've heard, I haven't been on one like that. I'm not sure what happens if you turn up at an unstaffed station needing assistance and the train is driver-only.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #21 on: 21 December, 2015, 11:48:36 pm »
If you book assistance in advance the train staff SHOULD know of your needs before arriving at the station.

At least the Heart of Wales line is not driver only and we use this most years.

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #22 on: 23 December, 2015, 03:48:42 pm »
Recently I happened to see (in a non-geeky way, honestly!) a British Rail training video from the late '70s. The idea of the video was telling customer-facing staff (long before railways had customers or any staff were described as anything-facing, of course) not to be grumpy (insert quip about the 1970s, nationalised industries and Soviet tendencies) but it happened to show a member of staff (a porter? did they still have official porters then?) pushing a trolley loaded with suitcases. A huge trolley like the things that get loaded on to planes. Which I think shows us both how passengers are expected to take control of their own luggage much more than they were and how there is less space for that luggage: no dedicated luggage coaches now. But people are (threads passim) flabbier and probably take more stuff with them (because we have more stuff!). Thus suitcases in bike areas.
When my Mum went up to University, which would have been late 50's, her railway ticket included collecting her trunk from the house, putting it in the guard's van, and delivering it to the Halls at the other end, while she made the connections by tram and bus.
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that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #23 on: 23 December, 2015, 04:31:54 pm »
It's a well-used service in Japan, provided by companies independent of the railway companies, to send luggage separately, including bikes. As well as for train journeys, also used for journeys to and from airports. Probably by road transport, and very fast and reliable at reasonable cost.

Only foreigners are seen struggling with heavy luggage!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #24 on: 23 December, 2015, 05:09:21 pm »
Judging by the Shite Courier thread, I wonder how well that would work here!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.