Author Topic: Female Friendly Audax.  (Read 28680 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #175 on: 09 September, 2019, 09:28:32 am »
I'm female. I have not ridden an audax for a few years, so don't know if the general ambience has changed. When I was riding them regularly I frequently did so on my own. What struck me was the friendliness and kindness of other audaxers. Yes, I frequently got asked if it was my first audax and you could see people looking for my "other half", then asking if I was riding on my own. I took no offence at this and did not feel patronised. Many times other riders would offer a tow whether I was struggling or not and sometimes I was able to return the favour to others (both male and female). I have even had guys stop and assist when I have had a puncture. Yes, I could have managed on my own, but help is always graciously accepted.

 So gentlemen, if you see a female on an audax please don't be worried about striking up a conversation or offering assistance for fear of giving offence. We are not all as prickly as some of the posts on this thread would have you believe. It's nice to chat to other riders and the friendliness and kindness of others is what makes an audax ride special.

On Friday I stood on stage at an Amsterdam tech conference, in front of many of the big names in my industry, and I told them to be better.

Specifically my talk was on the changes they could make to their recruitment processes, their company culture, and approach, to increase the diversity of their teams, with a view to improving the productivity, and well being of said teams. This was something of a telling truth to power type moment. Afterwards in the Q&A, one woman stood up, thanked me for doing the talk, then gave her story about why she'd moved from the core of our field to a role not really associated with it (tho she is still involved via things like the conference), because of the shit she took from men. After the talk, a couple of others came and told me the similar stories. One woman came up to tell me she'd worked in the industry for 10 years and never had a problem. I asked where she works and if they are hiring.

For every rider who's had a shit break with people being arseholes, be it at work, or on a cycling event, there will no doubt be others who have never experienced that behaviour. That's great, let's get more of those.

But let's also recognise that there are people who will turn up to their first ride, they'll be nervous about what they are doing, they haven't gone this far before, they didn't sleep great, they couldn't eat much breakfast cos of nerves, and they just want to get started. Yet while waiting to start, they can't pee cos theirs a man in the women's loo, they get asked if they are here alone (it really does come across as "So do you come here often?"), they may get unsolicited advice, it all adds up, it's all just another paper cut.

When you consider that many of us unfortunately are getting this shit in our every day life, and would like to escape it during our hobby, why would we stick around if we are?

We can all be better.

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Just for context- I have done an SR and PBP ( albeit several years ago) so am not talking from the perspective of someone who has only ridden a few 100k rides.
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In the off chance that is a suggestion that I've only done a few 100k rides. I'm at 14 BRM, plus a load of DIY's... and an ultra race...

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What could be done to attract more females? A friend introduced me to audax and I rode my first one with them. Perhaps some sort of "ride buddy" scheme would help. Personally I have never found toilets to be an issue or even a consideration.

s/females/women/g

I have suggested the ride mentoring scheme in multiple places across this forum, but as yet it has widely been knocked as "it's not needed cos we're friendly!"

Most people I meet on Audax events are great people, they treat me as an equal, they aren't patronising. But there is a tiny minority that can ruin an otherwise brilliant ride.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #176 on: 09 September, 2019, 10:19:11 am »
J, many of the points you make are perfectly reasonable but it's pretty hard for someone to be able to predict what is actually driving those points when they respond to your original point, which merely mentioned someone opening a conversation with an enquiry as to whether or not it was your first Audax - that and the fact that they didn't seem to recognise your TCR cap.  Almost nobody in the world, even in the cycling world, will recognise a TCR cap.  Or just possibly they did - and thought it was no big deal!

It all seems a hell of an extrapolation from what was probably a well-intended greetring.

Peter

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #177 on: 09 September, 2019, 10:25:58 am »
J, many of the points you make are perfectly reasonable but it's pretty hard for someone to be able to predict what is actually driving those points when they respond to your original point, which merely mentioned someone opening a conversation with an enquiry as to whether or not it was your first Audax - that and the fact that they didn't seem to recognise your TCR cap.  Almost nobody in the world, even in the cycling world, will recognise a TCR cap.  Or just possibly they did - and thought it was no big deal!

It all seems a hell of an extrapolation from what was probably a well-intended greetring.

"I was just curious if she came to this bar a lot as I can't seem to find my way around, that's why I asked if she came her often"

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #178 on: 09 September, 2019, 10:38:55 am »
Yes, but that's miles (kilometres) after your original complaint!

Peter

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #179 on: 09 September, 2019, 10:42:24 am »
I wouldn't expect to get on with more than 10% of fellow Audaxers. that's because they tend to be a bit quirky and individualistic, with distinctive riding styles.

There is an element which doesn't fulfil those criteria, and they tend to be in a group off the front. They're the younger ones who blog about their excursion into the 'Beardy Wierdy' world of Audax, but who rapidly find themselves out of their depth, and have to limp home with the 'Beardy Wierdies', for whom they rapidly acquire a grudging respect.

Getting on with 10% of a group is a big improvement on real life, where a 1% hit rate would be acceptable. Audax is a strange world, but people are strange. One obvious form of discrimination against women, even in England, is that men are allowed more eccentricity. There are a few niche activities where eccentric women can find a welcome, and Audax is one. The trick is to avoid the quite large prescriptive element, who like to tell you what Audax is and isn't. All niche activities have their evangelists, but it is a broad church.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #180 on: 09 September, 2019, 10:43:09 am »
Yes, but that's miles (kilometres) after your original complaint!


So I know I'm on the same page. What is my original complaint?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #181 on: 09 September, 2019, 10:43:21 am »
I'm afraid women are patronised almost wherever and whenever they cycle in the UK.

Those who are patronising may not be aware of this.

I'm afraid it does happen at audax; same as the rest of the world. Mind you in my experience it is vastly outnumbered by the friendships I have made and the help and encouiragement I have received from the men I have met and ridden with.

I do agree that audax has changed a great deal as I started audaxing in my late 20's then had a break for some 20 years before returning. The shorter events have become far more "race" oriented and a lot less chilled. For the 100k events there will be a lot of carbon bling, a few newcomers and the occaisional smattering of tourers. For the 200k you get the race brigade, regular audaxers and very rare tourers. Despite being able to finish comfortably within the time limits I am frequently at the back with maybe only a handful of people behind me. I wonder how many of them return?

The general atmosphere has changed, it is more of a group TT (with what appears to be associated humblebragging on this board) rather than a fast tour which probably makes it more daunting to any newcomers.
Reine de la Fauche


Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #182 on: 09 September, 2019, 11:05:17 am »
Let's play hunt the ignorant misogynist 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpzTtxAEHVc

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #183 on: 09 September, 2019, 11:07:14 am »
Let's play hunt the ignorant misogynist 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpzTtxAEHVc

Go for it, but I can tell you they aren't in that footage. I watched it.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #184 on: 09 September, 2019, 11:09:39 am »
For the 100k events there will be a lot of carbon bling

To be fair carbon fibre is now super cheap. You can get a carbon fibre bike for under a grand these days - indeed as low as £540 https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/road-bikes/boardman-road-team-carbon-bike-51-5-53-55-5-57-5cm-frames , which is about half the cost of my own steel bike. It's long past time to stop reckoning a carbon frame marks someone out as someone with a pile of dough because right now a Reynolds 725 frame will cost you significantly more, since carbon frames are turned out by the tens of thousands in Taiwan.

Since we're all giving our anecdotes, in my last audax I was chatting with someone while getting the tea in about the TCR and Fiona the winner. He literally said to my face that 'women are getting up themselves'. Ha ha ha, what a funny joke.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
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Ban cars.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #185 on: 09 September, 2019, 11:27:24 am »
To be fair carbon fibre is now super cheap. You can get a carbon fibre bike for under a grand these days - indeed as low as £540 https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/road-bikes/boardman-road-team-carbon-bike-51-5-53-55-5-57-5cm-frames , which is about half the cost of my own steel bike. It's long past time to stop reckoning a carbon frame marks someone out as someone with a pile of dough because right now a Reynolds 725 frame will cost you significantly more, since carbon frames are turned out by the tens of thousands in Taiwan.

Exactly. Steel framed bikes are becoming harder to find, and even ali seems to be being replaced with carbon. There's no reason to be snobby about carbon frames these days.

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Since we're all giving our anecdotes, in my last audax I was chatting with someone while getting the tea in about the TCR and Fiona the winner. He literally said to my face that 'women are getting up themselves'. Ha ha ha, what a funny joke.

What an arsehole. I've been asked if the whole equality thing has gone too far... sometimes it's a struggle to remain polite...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #186 on: 09 September, 2019, 11:28:35 am »
For the 100k events there will be a lot of carbon bling

To be fair carbon fibre is now super cheap. You can get a carbon fibre bike for under a grand these days - indeed as low as £540 https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/road-bikes/boardman-road-team-carbon-bike-51-5-53-55-5-57-5cm-frames , which is about half the cost of my own steel bike. It's long past time to stop reckoning a carbon frame marks someone out as someone with a pile of dough because right now a Reynolds 725 frame will cost you significantly more, since carbon frames are turned out by the tens of thousands in Taiwan.

Since we're all giving our anecdotes, in my last audax I was chatting with someone while getting the tea in about the TCR and Fiona the winner. He literally said to my face that 'women are getting up themselves'. Ha ha ha, what a funny joke.

"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.

Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)
Reine de la Fauche


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #187 on: 09 September, 2019, 11:34:58 am »
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.

Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)

Did you also forget "frame badge from last sportif still attached to frame?" :p

I wear rapha gear, but I'm on a steel framed bike covered in extraneous junk...

Does 32 spokes count as low spoke count in audax circles?

But, in all seriousness, I think the "carbon bling" as a term to describe a type of rider isn't quite fair, give how carbon bikes have become more the norm. It's a bit like when the media complain about poor people having flat screen tv's. Have you tried buying a non flat screen tv recently?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #188 on: 09 September, 2019, 12:00:48 pm »
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.

Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)

Did you also forget "frame badge from last sportif still attached to frame?" :p

I wear rapha gear, but I'm on a steel framed bike covered in extraneous junk...

Does 32 spokes count as low spoke count in audax circles?

But, in all seriousness, I think the "carbon bling" as a term to describe a type of rider isn't quite fair, give how carbon bikes have become more the norm. It's a bit like when the media complain about poor people having flat screen tv's. Have you tried buying a non flat screen tv recently?

J

No 32 is a high spoke count nowadays (dons old fart hat), Carbon bling is Pinarello, Cannondale, etc. NOT Boardman or Ribble - even if performance is the same. Combine that with all the other characteristics and I think I made myself fairly clear.
Reine de la Fauche


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #189 on: 09 September, 2019, 12:26:18 pm »
And I'm fairly sure the carbon fork on my Streetmachine is firmly into beardy weirdy territory.  The emphasis is on the bling, not the carbon.

And, TBH, I don't have a problem with the fast roadies on carbon bling.  I'll only see them for the first ten minutes, and whenever they stop for punctures or navigational difficulties.  (I don't think there's any point in being snobby about having proper tyres, a decent toolkit and knowing how to work my GPS receiver, either.  They still win hands-down at the riding a bike side of things.)  A bit of culture-clash is to be expected on a popular 100/200, and I think that's healthy.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #190 on: 09 September, 2019, 12:29:56 pm »
And I'm fairly sure the carbon fork on my Streetmachine is firmly into beardy weirdy territory.  The emphasis is on the bling, not the carbon.

And, TBH, I don't have a problem with the fast roadies on carbon bling.  I'll only see them for the first ten minutes, and whenever they stop for punctures or navigational difficulties.  (I don't think there's any point in being snobby about having proper tyres, a decent toolkit and knowing how to work my GPS receiver, either.  They still win hands-down at the riding a bike side of things.)

Being the defacto back marker, I usually pick up those who are having navigational issues.

On the 300 3 weeks ago, we had 2 working nav devices between 4 of us. The one on my Handlbars, and the spare in my saddle bag...

Was a good arrangement, they let me draft, I shouted out directions. I also didn't need to worry about being dropped as they'd get lost if they did... Of the three of them only 1 had done a BRM before (a 200).

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #191 on: 09 September, 2019, 01:49:11 pm »
And I'm fairly sure the carbon fork on my Streetmachine is firmly into beardy weirdy territory.  The emphasis is on the bling, not the carbon.

And, TBH, I don't have a problem with the fast roadies on carbon bling.  I'll only see them for the first ten minutes, and whenever they stop for punctures or navigational difficulties.  (I don't think there's any point in being snobby about having proper tyres, a decent toolkit and knowing how to work my GPS receiver, either.  They still win hands-down at the riding a bike side of things.)

Being the defacto back marker, I usually pick up those who are having navigational issues.

On the 300 3 weeks ago, we had 2 working nav devices between 4 of us. The one on my Handlbars, and the spare in my saddle bag...

Was a good arrangement, they let me draft, I shouted out directions. I also didn't need to worry about being dropped as they'd get lost if they did... Of the three of them only 1 had done a BRM before (a 200).

J

No problem with any of the subsets of audaxer, just attempting to describe them. Now some individuals perhaps!
I'm OK at navigating from the back as well...
Reine de la Fauche


Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #192 on: 10 September, 2019, 12:20:39 am »

"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.

Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)

"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?

as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #193 on: 10 September, 2019, 12:29:00 am »

"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.

Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)

"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?

as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?

It's actually a quite complex subject. I made a short film about two exceptional riders. Anco de Jong and Richard Leon. Anco rides a titanium bike from 12 years ago, when he did a fast time in PBP. Richard rode a bike from 1983 this year. However, it's a Reynolds 753 frame, with a full Campag Record groupset. So was the best you could possibly get in 1983.

There's a prejudice about 'all the gear and no idea', which criticises those who've got the best kit, but can't ride well. In 1983, Richard DNF'd, but in 1995 he did less than 47 hours on the same bike.



quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #194 on: 10 September, 2019, 12:29:53 am »
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?

as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?

You'd be most welcome at any Randonneurs NL ride!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #195 on: 10 September, 2019, 01:06:08 am »
Quote

There's a prejudice about 'all the gear and no idea', which criticises those who've got the best kit, but can't ride well. In 1983, Richard DNF'd, but in 1995 he did less than 47 hours on the same bike.


thanks for the reply and I do understand that to an extent, but pretty much *the* reason I've saved and got that gear is as I'm quite a poor rider and struggle and usually only manage 16-20km average on a 200km. I'm not doing it to look flash or brag, I got the kit/bike as I am often riding solo, often in the dark for the end of the day, in all those various weather conditions, often very tired and the bike and the kit just for me help make me get back to the finish (in time or not), as it's a pretty scary place to be all alone in the dark somewhere you've never been before not knowing if you're even going to make it back.

I know you'll all know those feelings too at times, but it's kinda offputting to know some people are disparaging my kit/bike choices.

I def do hope to improve and indeed this year I have - but I bought the bike/kit as I love to ride, and that it is lighter than my previous bikes and helps me to ride with a bit more confidence that I'll be able to manage those (almost always solo) rides is why I saved for them.

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #196 on: 10 September, 2019, 01:09:34 am »
Quote

You'd be most welcome at any Randonneurs NL ride!

J

Hopefully I might manage to come over for one someday :)

Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #197 on: 10 September, 2019, 01:20:26 am »
Quote

There's a prejudice about 'all the gear and no idea', which criticises those who've got the best kit, but can't ride well. In 1983, Richard DNF'd, but in 1995 he did less than 47 hours on the same bike.


thanks for the reply and I do understand that to an extent, but pretty much *the* reason I've saved and got that gear is as I'm quite a poor rider and struggle and usually only manage 16-20km average on a 200km. I'm not doing it to look flash or brag, I got the kit/bike as I am often riding solo, often in the dark for the end of the day, in all those various weather conditions, often very tired and the bike and the kit just for me help make me get back to the finish (in time or not), as it's a pretty scary place to be all alone in the dark somewhere you've never been before not knowing if you're even going to make it back.

I know you'll all know those feelings too at times, but it's kinda offputting to know some people are disparaging my kit/bike choices.

I def do hope to improve and indeed this year I have - but I bought the bike/kit as I love to ride, and that it is lighter than my previous bikes and helps me to ride with a bit more confidence that I'll be able to manage those (almost always solo) rides is why I saved for them.



What I admire about Anco and Richard is their capacity to establish rapport. Clearly they are good riders, but in the dark, somewhere between Loudeac and Carhaix, you'll think; 'These are people who I can do the rest of the ride with'. Obviously few can, as they are exceptional. But there are people close to your own ability who will do the same for you.

Both Anco and Richard have said that they can't imagine the mental strength required to spend four nights on the road. They've never spent more than two. If spending on a bike makes the 4th night easier, then it's worth it to you. That operates at all levels, from the shortest event to the longest.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #198 on: 10 September, 2019, 07:33:11 am »

"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.

Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)

"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?

as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?

If your bike/kit gets you round in time and you enjoy it then that's all that matters. Turning up at the start and seeing the variety of everyone's setup is one of the great things about Audax.

The organisers want you to complete the ride (and ideally come back next year) and I'm sure that 99% of riders would share this view :)

Rapha kit is a bit pricey for me but it looks great!
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Female Friendly Audax.
« Reply #199 on: 10 September, 2019, 08:08:29 am »
... it's kinda offputting to know some people are disparaging my kit/bike choices.

I think, sadly, that in any activity there will always be a minority that set themselves up as judges of others. About 18 years ago I brought a friend along on his first Audax and he turned up on a steel road bike without mudguards and was on the receiving end of a couple of snarky comments, even though it was a gloriously dry day. That was his last Audax, so far as I know, which was a shame.  I've had grief when riding the occasional sportive for not wearing a helmet or for having a saddlebag, usually from people wearing very new-looking kit and riding lightweight bikes with little more than a spare tube.  There are some people in Audax circles who bemoan the presence of Elliptigos on randonnees.  Some people just like to moan or criticise.

My point is, those who carp and complain are in a very tiny minority and certainly not representative of the fellow-riders that I have encountered in more than two decades of taking part, all over the country. One of the joys of AUK is that it embraces riders of all abilities and temperaments, from those who want to race off at the front and "do a time" to those who like to ride at a gentler pace and spend more time enjoying the views, taking breaks at the controls and generally being sociable. Please don't ever feel that you're not welcome.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?