Author Topic: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?  (Read 5373 times)

Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« on: 24 January, 2017, 01:34:33 pm »
So we need a 3 person tent (preferably with extended porch) but also need to improve the sleeping bags we have available to use. Which is best to spend money on to get better/lighter?

By my reckoning with one PHD sleeping bag purchase we can save over 1.5kg. With the tent option we can save a lot less but it works out a lot cheaper because there's half the money in place already. Long story but it's already spent and come back so isn't noticed as in not out of our money (held separately).

To give you an idea our old tent was 3.65kg for extended porch 3 man tunnel tent. A new tent option is £640 for a kilo lighter in a similar design but a lot better carried out. Another option is £240 for a similar tent that is 365g lighter.

We currently have a set up consisting of large sleeping bag plus 2 cheap but compact (read not very warm) bags and an ul quilt to throw over the cheap bags if cold. This fills quite a big dry bag and weighs 4kg. Getting a good sleeping bag and ditching the 2 cheap bags drops 1.6kg maybe more. It's more compact too.

I've discussed my luggage difficulties elsewhere but suffice to say 3 of us are limited to 1 rack loaded with kit and a trailer. (3rd member of team is a young child on a child seat) the tent fills the top of the rack but the sleeping bags currently takes up most of the trailer volume. I reckon half the volume could be dropped with one sleeping bag purchase but the tent volume is unlikely to be reduced nor is it a problem anyway

What's your views on this? Should i spend on better tent or sleeping arrangements?

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #1 on: 24 January, 2017, 02:17:25 pm »
I would get better sleeping bags and mats and come to the tent later. If you do change the tent, make sure to compare the size of the inner - a '3 man' can be the same size as a 2 man of a different make or twice the size. A Nallo 2 is wide enough for 2 exped mats, a nallo 3 is not wide enough for 3. Bear in mind with a young child that things change in a fairly short time. Until ours was 2, the Nallo 2 GT was fine, but it quickly became too small. If your toddler is happy in their own room, then a one man tent annexed at the end of a tunnel might make a cheaper and lighter option - our toddler sleeps in with us and takes all the room, as well as striding around like Godzilla, causing chaos, so we have a bigger tent for that reason.
Quote from: Kim
^ This woman knows what she's talking about.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #2 on: 24 January, 2017, 03:49:02 pm »
We're looking for 3 man tent at 1.65m inner width to take exped mats which we have. We had an extended porch tunnel tent but it went back due to a pole failure. We will need a replacement tent anyway so this gave us the dilemma because the sleeping bag arrangement isn't right.

Getting the sleeping bag setup to a useable level is the price of a sleeping bag. I like the PHD minim, 436g and 5Celsius comfort for£280 without zip and a few options. Options like short and slim for our kid. It'll still last years like that. I have a similarly lightweight quilt and one heavy xl sleeping bag at 1.3kg.

If we do this it'll limit spend on tent. I've seen berghaus 3.3pro extended pitch tunnel tent for £240. It'll do but not ideal, cheapest of such tents and lighter than 3.65kg of our old tent.

Keeping our useable but bulky/heavy sleeping bags then liberates money to get a better tent that'll hopefully last longer. Something like one of the lightwave 3 man extended porch tents. There's one that's sub3kg another 3.3kg. Both I've seen around the £425 mark. Saving £280 with the sleeping bags that only leaves £145 to find.

£240 + £280 = £520 for cheaper tent plus good sleeping bag

£440 for good tent with a low weight and we're not spending so much.

First option would probably end up with a good tent purchase later on anyway.

Chris N

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #3 on: 24 January, 2017, 03:58:22 pm »
Have a look at Alpkit's range of sleeping bags.  They're not as light or comapct as the PHD ones (I have a PHD Minim something and an early Alpkit PD400), but pretty good and cheaper too.  There may be a middle ground where you can save a bit of bulk and weight at a lower price.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #4 on: 24 January, 2017, 04:03:22 pm »
I did think of alpkit too. I think they've gone downhill in quality though. I've had stuff from them for years since their early days i think. The last few things I've bought weren't to the same quality. Could be wrong of course.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #5 on: 24 January, 2017, 11:18:57 pm »
I recently switched from a Vango ultralite 600 sleeping bag to a down quilt and it greatly reduced my packing volume: not just because of the reduction in size of the quilt, but also because I don't need to pack as much warm clothing to sleep in. Just chucking that in as another angle to consider.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #6 on: 24 January, 2017, 11:56:48 pm »
Agreed that you're going to save more bulk by concentrating on sleeping bags rather than the tent.  Bulk is more important than weight, IMHO.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #7 on: 25 January, 2017, 12:12:53 am »
So sleeping bag it is.

BTW Alpkit pd200/400/600, which one to get? Camping out in UK between mid/late March and end of September. Late March has seen us camping in snow in peak district even low down. I'm thinking a 900 or 865g pd400 in long or standard sizes.

Alternatively I've seen a £220 down bag weighing sub700g from an American brand reduced from £380. 900FP hydrophobic down IIRC but can't quite remember the shop or brand. Stupid! Only 4 or 5C comfort temp (true comfort not limit temp) but that'll be ok. Mostly camp from cars in cold weather not with bike kit. So it would most likely see june to early September use when well above 5C.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #8 on: 25 January, 2017, 10:26:24 am »
Decided on one of these rather than Alpkit http://sleepingbags-cumulus.eu/uk/categories/sleeping-bags/panyam-450?gid=59&vid=6 when I needed to replace my old ME Green Dragon.

Bought it from these guys http://www.cyclo-randonnee.fr/sac-de-couchage-21/sac-de-couchage-cumulus-panyam-450-1530.html which meant I could choose a short length righthand zip.
I needed to email them as there website says they deliver to France or Belgium but they were happy to add UK to the list and the total cost came to 270 euros.

Lovely and soft and so far has kept me cozy down to 3 degrees with no extra clothing required. I do use a silk liner but more to keep the bag clean than for warmth. The only snagis you have to be carefull not to snap the baffle but I suspect most bags are a bit susceptible to that.

HTH
Julia
Reine de la Fauche


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #9 on: 25 January, 2017, 10:35:05 am »
Decided on one of these rather than Alpkit http://sleepingbags-cumulus.eu/uk/categories/sleeping-bags/panyam-450?gid=59&vid=6 when I needed to replace my old ME Green Dragon.

Bought it from these guys http://www.cyclo-randonnee.fr/sac-de-couchage-21/sac-de-couchage-cumulus-panyam-450-1530.html which meant I could choose a short length righthand zip.
I needed to email them as there website says they deliver to France or Belgium but they were happy to add UK to the list and the total cost came to 270 euros.

Lovely and soft and so far has kept me cozy down to 3 degrees with no extra clothing required. I do use a silk liner but more to keep the bag clean than for warmth. The only snagis you have to be carefull not to snap the baffle but I suspect most bags are a bit susceptible to that.

HTH
Julia
I used to have a Cumulus down jacket, back when I was in Poland and they were just a small company. It was extremely warm, weighed very little, but did shed a bit. It also seemed very breathable when eg stuck on a hot bus, though obvs you wouldn't wear it in the rain. But how it would compare to other down stuff I don't know; in any case was so long ago as to be probably irrelevant.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #10 on: 25 January, 2017, 03:30:59 pm »
Decade or more ago there was an outdoor shop in Kendal that stocked cumulus sleeping bags. You could get them elsewhere but not many retailers. However the few places that sold them and had prices on their website (so long ago that there were fewer online outdoors shops) those prices were 20% more than the Kendal shop. It put their down bags within my price range. That shop also sold Lowe alpine samples, end of runs, prototypes and stuff in unpopular colours. You could get a seconds quality rucksack that had full LA guarantees like new products for very little. Large 75 litre sacks for typical day sack prices, their range toppers too.

Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #11 on: 27 January, 2017, 03:21:29 am »
Dual-purpose 800 down quilt/ponch/serape from Jacks-R-Better can save packing a separate down jacket for static cold evenings/mornings around camp.  Also much warmer than an equivalent weight jacket - sitting in a cross-legged position on an insulated pad, you can cover/pull-in all limbs inside for a mitten effect.  Just bring enough clothing for daytime use.  Three different weights (lightest shown), hood optional. 


Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #12 on: 27 January, 2017, 01:14:40 pm »
What's your views on this? Should i spend on better tent or sleeping arrangements?

Go to Decathlon or Go Outdoors and get a relatively cheap tent that will not be overly heavy.  Decathlon will sell their own range and are fine; loads of French folk use them and they know a thing or two about camping!  Go Outdoors will sell branded tents such as Vango; fine as they do some decent kit.  Start looking at the likes of Hillberg, North Face etc and you will be spending an awful lot of money for diminishing returns.  I have seen basic tents used in some very harsh and high places including the highest camp on Denali in Alaska and they worked fine.  My current cycle camping tent was purchased in a French supermarket for 30 Euros in 2007 and works a treat without being two heavy for use of the tandem.  If I'm going solo and worried about weight then I use the 'one man' tunnel tent which is just over 1kg.  Specialist tents may be needed for special places, but are you needs that special?  Save your money for spending on better sleeping kit.

Regards sleeping kit, a number of options arise, that need not be expensive and have a look at Decathlon andf Go Outdoors.  As stated elsewhere (reply #13 here https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=101221.msg2121455#msg2121455) I have a range of specialist down bags and some basic bags that can be 'nested' rather like the Russian doll effect.  (eg http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/camping/sleeping-bags or https://www.decathlon.co.uk/C-876202-hiking-sleeping-bags that will not break the bank and are not too bulky).  Offers far more flexibility in terms of seasons or places and tends to be cheaper.  I also find that money spent on a breathable bivvy bag https://www.alpkit.com/products/hunka is always money well spent and has a marked effect on warmth when used with sleeping bags and also protects against any mishaps in the tent in terms of a minor leak or condensation.  Both Decathlon and Go Outdoors do sleeping mats that need not break the bank.

Alternatively, go super lightweight with minimum bulk and be prepared to spend a lot of money on kit.

As always, IMO, life becomes a balance and compromise always wins the day.

We often go on about layering with clothing (be it cycling or when venturing to the hills) and then go for a totally inflexible solution to our sleeping systems.  Madness!

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #13 on: 27 January, 2017, 05:09:51 pm »
Bag and sleeping mat are more important than the quality of the tent. As long as the tent is dry, it's a winner to focus on the sleeping arrangements.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #14 on: 27 January, 2017, 08:19:46 pm »
No Decathlon store anywhere near me to check them out. It's been decade since I've been in one, that was a decent sized one in Paris. Wasn't impressed with their tents at all. I know they've got better these days and they've produced some reasonable 1 or 2 man lightweight tents of a similar quality as Vango Banshee tents. It's just that without checking them out i have to rule them out. We just don't have time or want the hassle of buying online then send back if no good. Personally looking at the spec of Decathlon tents seen online in don't think they do anything if interest to us. This is from someone who used a £5 Argos tent and actually found it was half decent. I'm not adverse to buying cheap since I've got really good performing products doing that in the past.

We go to go outdoors several times a year. I'm always tempted by the deals you see in the booklets they send to me. Truth is I've found very few good deals that I've wanted to get once in store. Tents mostly family tents for car camping. Over the years I've noticed they've focused on their own brands of tents and a few Vango and Outwell tents at the more expensive family tent end. Well a lot of very big tents or air filled frame style of tent. The backpacking sized tents are rather heavy. 3 man tents for example (the tent we need) seem to be their own OEX tents or Vango tents. The former are 4.5kg plus which is nearer the weight of high mountain geodesic tents from Terra Nova but without the durability. The Vango are usually banshee 2/3 man, heavy tunnel tents and other styles which have very little porch space. We once considered a Vango dome tent that looked decent on paper. We happened to see one pitched at a tent show we discovered one day. It was raining but no wind so rain was vertical plus not that heavy. The trouble was the fly zip opened up tyre same amount or more than the inner. This meant nothing stopping the rain coming in. Rain hit the fly and ran straight down into the tent within the inner tent. Ok you can keep it zippered up nice and tight but you'd still get it very wet entering.

It's things you can only see when the tent is pitched that makes s difference. That's why we're fussy. So far we've seen cheap but heavy, cheap/light/poor quality materials and pricey but really very good quality/light/well designed. The last category i feel starts at close to £400.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #15 on: 27 January, 2017, 08:34:57 pm »
We use exped synmat ul which goes well into the minus Celsius ratings. Well below the temperatures we need. That was noticeable indeed.

Looking into our options we've concluded that kids bags are really very poor quality and specifications. For example our highly rated kids sleeping bag is over 1kg in weight but still only good for +5C. It's got a very large pack size indeed. Even compressed down it's a high volume than a dry bag containing my quilt, xl sleeping bag and two cheapo aldi bags (the ul ones sold last spring). That's a sleeping bag that was given a good score in a few magazine reviews of kid's bags.

This means I'm more likely to choose an adults bag for all of us. The women's bags are generally smaller than standard unisex ones. The only issue they're often packed with body mapped infill aimed for women, which means they're warmer. Our lad is very warm blooded sleeper. So either a very high bulk and weight for a kids bag or spending more on an adults bag. This last option is my preference. I've seen an 875g rab bag for £154 with a 2.5C comfort rating.

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #16 on: 29 January, 2017, 10:09:54 am »
I recently switched from a Vango ultralite 600 sleeping bag to a down quilt and it greatly reduced my packing volume: not just because of the reduction in size of the quilt, but also because I don't need to pack as much warm clothing to sleep in. Just chucking that in as another angle to consider.
Another vote for a quilt over a bag, I got mine from Jacks R Better about a decade ago when there was less choice.  Probably the best camping purchase I've made, good on it's own for all my three season camping. Not a current model, it's 650g, 800 fill goose down, rated to -4C (Though I'm not sure I would.)

Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #17 on: 29 January, 2017, 07:19:29 pm »
Oh Dear, Oh Dear, Oh Dear.

I'm a recovering light weight addict. There, I've admitted it.

For too many years I bought the latest Rucksack, Therma-A-Rest, Sleeping Bag or Camping Stove. Then Titanium came out and I replaced perfectly good stoves, plates or utensils with new ones just because the saved me a few grams or promised to boil a pint a water ten seconds faster. Tent, tents, don't mention tents (or Bivi bags). Dehydrated Food, I eat all sorts of rubbish, BUT it saves me 100grm. I'm over this now and life is much more relaxed, I can even skim through the outdoor magazines in WH Smiths without getting palputations or breaking into a sweat.

One the other hand, there's nothing wrong trying to lose weight or volume, when you're you using just muscle power propel yourself it genuinely does make a difference, just don't get obsessed about a few grams or centimetres. My only bit of advice, buy quality.

These used to be considered porn sites.
https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/
http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/going-lightweight.html

crowriver

  • Крис Б
Re: Cutting weight (and bulk) with limited budget?
« Reply #18 on: 12 February, 2017, 01:04:03 pm »
I suppose the ultimate lightweight camping kit is a tarp strung between two trees and a bivvy bag. A bit spartan, though.

I would be less inclined to worry about weight, especially given the use of a trailer. If this is a two wheel trailer, e.g. Carry Freedom, Burley or similar, then my advice is let the trailer take the strain: you'll only feel 30% of the weight on the bike (ascending or descending hills excepted). When trailer camping, in my view one need not worry too much about shaving a kilo off the tent pack weight. I've successfully cycle camped with the wife and two young kids staying in inexpensive 5-man tents (or later a 5-man and 2-man combo) from the likes of Gelert, Coleman and EasyCamp. The sleeping bags were nothing to shout about either, but they did the job: you just wear some clothes in the bag if it gets cold one night. I should note I was towing all the camping gear in large Ortlieb bags strapped to the trailer.

I can hear the ultra lightweight camping enthusiasts recoiling in horror at this prospect. However I would say, if you have young children in tow, it's really not worth splashing out on an expensive tent, ultra compact sleeping bags, etc. It's amazing what kids can get up to in a tent: if it only cost £50 or £100 then there's no heartbreak if the tent gets unwittingly trashed by children in high spirits; nor is it a disaster when they traipse their muddy shoes all over the relatively inexpensive sleeping bags or sleeping mats, or spill their juice on them, or vomit over them, etc.

The problem of course (as noted above), is that 'family tent' to the industry means a bulky monster with three bedrooms resembling a bungalow, and weighing the same as a few bags of cement. There are though cheaper 'backpacking' tents out there which can serve as cycle camping family tents. Vango, Coleman, Gelert all do suitably sized tents. I'd be looking for at least a 4-man if it's two adults and a small child: inevitably 3-man means barely room for 2; 2-man just enough room for 1; and so on.
Embrace your inner Fred.