Author Topic: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity  (Read 13355 times)

Pancho

  • لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #25 on: 23 December, 2015, 05:34:01 pm »
Last time I looked, it cost a tenner plus taxes to send a bike by courier. Certainly, it's what I'd do if off on hols etc.

I'm not convinced by the argument for non-folding bikes on trains. They take up space. Space that could carry passengers. The TOCs really ought to charge for bikes - it feels antisocial to expect a freebie.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #26 on: 23 December, 2015, 05:41:19 pm »
I'm inclined to agree, tbh.  I'd much rather pay for a bike ticket, assuming of course that that came with the expectation that the TOC would actually make an effort transport your bike.  Which is probably why they don't do it.

On some high speed trains (including but not limited to HSTs), there are areas that can't be used for passengers, because they're supposed to be a crumple zone.  Putting bikes in some of them makes sense.

Couriering makes sense if you don't need to use the bike (or anything you're using it to carry) immediately at your destination.  Not so good for multi-modal journeys or day rides.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #27 on: 23 December, 2015, 05:53:23 pm »
As it happens, I was thinking more or less the same earlier today as I rode up to Earthcott Green (it's a real place!). The trouble would be setting the charge at a level that seemed reasonable to passengers and worth collecting to TOCs. What seems reasonable will vary according to journey obviously and personal perception but also, I think, train type. Paying for a space in an HST or Voyager seems, to me at least, more reasonable than in a little train with flip-up seats or a space in the corridor just because it is a proper, designated bike space. Even if it's crap, as in a Voyager.

It also occurred to me that the "ideal" might be the resurrection of something like Red Star (but with a better name) to give trains guard vans and a use for them. GWR recently started carrying fresh oysters (or some other sort of sea creature) from Cornwall to London. That service uses an HST and they still have a guard's van (and separate bike space).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #28 on: 23 December, 2015, 05:54:10 pm »
There's also the question of luggage. Would charging for bikes be seen as a slippery slope to charging for suitcases, airline style?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #29 on: 23 December, 2015, 05:56:41 pm »
There's also the question of luggage. Would charging for bikes be seen as a slippery slope to charging for suitcases, airline style?

Quite possibly.

Again, you could argue in favour, as it might encourage TOCs to think about luggage space (and passengers to think about the size of their bags - which would reasonably be measured by volume rather than mass).

Also, charging for pushchairs.  Presumably those would have a more complicated tariff structure, where volume (litres) is multiplied by volume (decibels).


On the gripping hand, the one thing the UK doesn't need is a more complicated system for train fares.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #30 on: 23 December, 2015, 05:59:37 pm »
You could. But there's also the danger of pricing people into thinking "It's so much simpler just to drive there." Or even take the bus.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #31 on: 23 December, 2015, 06:00:59 pm »
You could. But there's also the danger of pricing people into thinking "It's so much simpler just to drive there." Or even take the bus.

Indeed.  That already happens, of course.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #32 on: 23 December, 2015, 06:02:08 pm »
Also, as Brian Bear and Fleazy Jet have shown, charge for one sort of luggage and people just take more of the other. Hard to see how you'd actually enforce a "suitcase ticket" on a train.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #33 on: 23 December, 2015, 06:07:45 pm »
I believe it's about capacity, largely. Capacity (of trains) is reduced with fewer seats. Capacity of the line is reduced with a guards van since entraining and detraining (I think those are the appropriate jargon junk terms) take longer. A guards van most likely also costs more in staffing. Plus at small stations like Stonehouse, Gloucs, reduces further the platform capacity for passengers, thus slowing the "Station Stop" even more...

I don't think the 125 carriage ends were designed as crumple zones. More modern designs may well have that. Although a crumple zone full of bikes, crumpled, would make for difficult egress after a crash.
It is simpler than it looks.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #34 on: 23 December, 2015, 06:54:33 pm »
I don't think the 125 carriage ends were designed as crumple zones.

Probably not, but I don't think they're allowed to fill them with seats.  Otherwise someone would likely have filled them with seats.

The point is that it's not an egress route for anyone other than the driver.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #35 on: 23 December, 2015, 07:07:42 pm »
Prior to 1977, British rail charged passengers a Child's Fare (usually half the full adult fare) for a bicycle.
It seemed steep but reasonable at the time, though I really did admire the CTC for getting free cycle carriage for the Silver Jubilee.

Trains were rather different then; I misspent much of my youth in guards' vans. O one journey, I travelled with an unfortunate woman in a wheelchair; there was nowhere else on the train for it. On another trip there was a rather nice black Avatar 2000 recumbent...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #36 on: 23 December, 2015, 08:10:38 pm »
I don't think the 125 carriage ends were designed as crumple zones. More modern designs may well have that. Although a crumple zone full of bikes, crumpled, would make for difficult egress after a crash.
Is Kim talking about the carriage ends? I thought she was referring to the guard's van/space behind the engine in the "driving van trailer" (another jargon junk term).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #37 on: 23 December, 2015, 08:18:20 pm »
Yeah, specifically the business end of a the power car.  That's a whole unit on a HST, but just the bit behind the cab on a Pendolino or Voyager.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #39 on: 28 December, 2015, 08:35:01 pm »
What exactly was the problem there? I scanned the tweet but couldn't see whether it was bar width, too heavy to lift or something else.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #40 on: 28 December, 2015, 08:49:17 pm »
I'm guessing the bar width, though I can't imagine it's much fun to lift.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #41 on: 19 July, 2016, 01:52:28 pm »
The CTC recently launched a successful campaign against Eurostar requiring just this sort of thing.

Evidently a little bit too successful:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36820751

 :facepalm:

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #42 on: 19 July, 2016, 02:40:01 pm »
–Yeah but it doesn't matter cos there are never any disabled passengers anyway.
–Why's that?
–Because we haven't got the facilities for them.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #43 on: 19 July, 2016, 02:43:33 pm »
Quote
It follows the introduction of new trains which do not have goods carriages for bike storage.
There was a lot of good in train parcels services. Even without parcels. Mind you, if they still had parcel vans, I dare say we'd be hearing of wheelchair passengers being "seated" in the goods van.  :facepalm:

Quote
The use of a disabled toilet as alternative cycle storage was "appalling", one member of train crew who spoke to BBC News anonymously said.
"The company has caved in to the bike lobby. This sends a terrible message to disabled passengers."
Make it into a conflict...  :hand:
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #44 on: 19 July, 2016, 03:12:46 pm »
Quite.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #45 on: 20 July, 2016, 05:07:33 pm »
Bike in a Eurostar toilet

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36820751

Elsewhere on the world wide wobble I read that "The German IC DVTs have around 30 reservable bike spaces." DVT = driving van trailer, ie the guard's van space at one end of a train like a Eurostar or HST 125. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the number though.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #46 on: 20 July, 2016, 11:03:18 pm »
It seemed steep but reasonable at the time, though I really did admire the CTC for getting free cycle carriage for the Silver Jubilee.
Wasn't that the campaign where the BR marketing department signed up to free carriage just when the engineering department were introducing trains that didn't have the space to support the response?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #47 on: 21 July, 2016, 12:02:53 pm »
I don't know. It was 1977..

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #48 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:48:37 am »
At 9:31 in this geekeo you get a very quick sight of the cycle capacity of the IEPs.
https://youtu.be/Ovs-I6VnTPg?t=9m31s
It's dangly type but with a separator to prevent bikes swaying into each other. It will, of course, normally be full of suitcases.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New Trains and cycle carrying capacity
« Reply #49 on: 18 October, 2017, 11:26:26 am »
At 9:31 in this geekeo you get a very quick sight of the cycle capacity of the IEPs.
https://youtu.be/Ovs-I6VnTPg?t=9m31s
It's dangly type but with a separator to prevent bikes swaying into each other.

The idea is that you can lock your bike to the separator to prevent casual theft.  The separator itself acts as a carriage-key-operated D-lock so that staff (or suitably equipped criminals) can remove locked bikes as needed.


Quote
It will, of course, normally be full of suitcases.

The fold-down luggage shelf wasn't present on the mock-up I tested.  I expect we'll get people sitting on that, too.