Author Topic: DIY minimum speed  (Read 11185 times)

DIY minimum speed
« on: 24 June, 2011, 12:27:47 pm »
I presume this is correct for DIY’s?

Quote
5.7 Speeds: events shall be run within maximum and minimum overall speeds and riders checked through a series of controls which have predetermined opening and closing times and which must be published in the brevet card for calendared events.
(i) The minimum speeds may not be altered and shall be:
for events up to 699km - within the range 14.3 to 15kph;
for events from 700 to 1299 km - 13.3kph;
for events from 1300 to 1899 km - 12kph;
for events from 1900 to 2499 km - 10kph; and
for events over 2499 km, 200 km per day.

So for a 2498 event you get about 10 day 10 hours.

If I did a 2500km DIY (by gps) how long would I have? 12 days or 12 days 12 hours or 13 days? (I am thinking of doing grand tour with a few days stopping at friends/relatives)


Also if did the End to End - Brevet Populaire perm details then the minimum speed is 3kph? But this does not count towards AUK points? Take it that means it’s called and Audax but does not count for anything (such as Randonneur 5,000)?

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #1 on: 24 June, 2011, 12:32:28 pm »
So for a 2498 event you get about 10 day 10 hours.

Yes (10 days 9 hours 48 minutes).

If I did a 2500km DIY (by gps) how long would I have? 12 days or 12 days 12 hours or 13 days? (I am thinking of doing grand tour with a few days stopping at friends/relatives)

It'll either be 12 days or 12 days 12 hours, it's not clear from that page. You certainly can't have 13 days as you're not doing 2600km.

Also if did the End to End - Brevet Populaire perm details then the minimum speed is 3kph? But this does not count towards AUK points? Take it that means it’s called and Audax but does not count for anything (such as Randonneur 5,000)?

Correct, Populaires (even ones of 200km and over) do not count for awards like the Randonneur 5000.

You have to do the End to End in 116h40m (with a distance of at least 1400km) for it to count for points and Randonneur awards.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Billy Weir

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #2 on: 24 June, 2011, 01:19:30 pm »
Or you can do the E2E as a series of 7x200 and get 7x2=14 points also.

I know this because I am the organiser of the AUK validated E2E.

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #3 on: 24 June, 2011, 02:58:48 pm »
2,500km would be 12 and a half days
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #4 on: 24 June, 2011, 03:16:00 pm »
2,500km would be 12 and a half days
Well that's certainly what you get when you divide by 200km!

But is the rule intended to allow you to ride just 100km in 1 day? Is that dawn-till-dusk, or 14h, 24h, or what?!? I suspect the lawyers intended riders to do multiples of 200km. Maybe.


The sensible compromise seems to be to take the 10kph speed (for -2499km); that gives you 10.4 days. I can't believe anyone wants a rider to have a HIGHER average speed for a LONGER distance.

If it was 2700km there wouldn't be a problem - just ride it as 13x200km and treat the last 100km as riding home from the Audax!

I do wonder if this is a real route the OP has in mind, or if he's just being mischievous by picking the one distance that seems to fall between the cracks ;)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #5 on: 24 June, 2011, 03:26:43 pm »
The sensible compromise seems to be to take the 10kph speed (for -2499km); that gives you 10.4 days. I can't believe anyone wants a rider to have a HIGHER average speed for a LONGER distance.
?eh?  ???
10.4 days is a sensible compromise instead of 12.5 days?
good point, brain fade.  :facepalm:

What's your answer then, smart-arse? ;)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #6 on: 24 June, 2011, 04:07:44 pm »
I would have interpreted 12 and half days as meaning that you did the final 100km in 12 hours or less. e.g. if Pizzaman started the last 100km at 8am he would have until 8pm to finish.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #7 on: 24 June, 2011, 04:13:56 pm »
Isn't that just the deadline for the whole thing? Being out of time at intermediate controls on a DIY/Perm is not so much of a problem as long as the whole thing is done within the time limits.

(There are some problems with arriving at controls too soon but that's rarely a problem for us mere mortals.)

In other words, no-one would really care if you ended up doing 150km in the last 12 hours, just as long as the 2500km was done within 12 days and 12 hours.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #8 on: 24 June, 2011, 04:29:31 pm »
Quote
2,500km would be 12 and a half days

Thanks, that was what I was hoping to hear :thumbsup: But want to find out for definite, not just an interpretation....

For my purposes 12 and 1/2 days is basically the same as 13, eg. set off at 9am day 1, get till 9pm on day 13..... :)

EDIT (before posting) have rewritten parts several times as information keep being posted (I am a slow typer...) am just posting now....

But.... I guess I would have to nominate suitable check points and hit them at appropriately times? So if started at 9am on day 1, would effectively have to have done 2400km before bed on day 12, so even thought could have a good night sleep plus 12 hours riding could only do 100km (out of the 2500km) on final day?

Quote
if he's just being mischievous by picking the one distance that seems to fall between the cracks


Quote
for events over 2499 km, 200 km per day

I did not make up the rule.... surely if only whole days counted they would have made the rule for routes over 2399 or 2599?

Route comes to a bit less than 2500km and am struggling to come up with suitable schedule as want to spend couple of days not riding (staying with friends and family on route, will be my main holiday...). Seemed worth adding few extra km's to gian an extra 2 days.....

Route I am looking at is John O'Groats to Lands End via the most north, west, east and south points in UK Extreme points of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, (John O'Groats and Lands End are not any of these....) plus a few other bits what to do on the way  :)

Other option is to breaking the run up into smaller sections eg 1000km, days rest, 400km, days rest, 900km. The route brakes up quite naturally into these sections.

May even break the 1000km and 900km sections into smaller rides so can gain a nights sleep "off the clock".

This also give's added benefit of if something goes wrong on one section the whole ride is not a DNF... Would like to call a single ride but I will still know how long the whole ride was....

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #9 on: 24 June, 2011, 04:43:18 pm »
Other option is to breaking the run up into smaller sections eg 1000km, days rest, 400km, days rest, 900km. The route brakes up quite naturally into these sections.

May even break the 1000km and 900km sections into smaller rides so can gain a nights sleep "off the clock".

The problem with that is you go from 1000km in 5 days (120h), as part of a long ride > 2499km, to having to do the 1000km in 75 hours (13.3kph), that's a difference of 45 hours!

Similarly you only get 67h40 for the 900km rather than 4.5 days (108h).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Alouicious

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #10 on: 24 June, 2011, 05:28:17 pm »
What Audax don't want is for someone to organise a 2550km DIY with a time limit of 10 days 15 hours, ride constantly with short stops and no sleep until they are completely exhausted; and then keeling over and expiring in a hedge.

At least the rider would get his/her name in the obituaries column.


Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #11 on: 24 June, 2011, 05:56:11 pm »
I thought in the DIY by GPS guide the was a limit on distance for this type of ride. Is this incorrect?

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #12 on: 24 June, 2011, 06:03:36 pm »
Quote
The problem with that is you go from 1000km in 5 days (120h), as part of a long ride > 2499km, to having to do the 1000km in 75 hours (13.3kph), that's a difference of 45 hours!

Hence the reason I am thinking about upping the distance to take me into that cartography... Just trying to work out if there is another way to do it....

Although get less time to ride, get more breaks "off the clock", if did that way. Would take a couple of days off between rides (each about 32 hours out the saddle eg 10pm stop riding, day off, start riding 6am), Plus would break 1000km up so got some long nights off (12 hours out the saddle). Need to do maths and see how could be fitted in with 24 hour days, but may work out similar due to amount of time taken out "off the clock" between the various sections....

One approach would be to decide how far want to cycle each day (200, 300 or 400km) can easily average 14.3km over these distances, then take time between the rides as rest "off the clock". Also with DIY by GPS rules can leave decisions till the last minute depending on how I feel/weather as don't need to send virtual brevet card off till 1 min before you ride....

Would be more over distance involved if broken up into more sections but that's not a big deal to me.
 
My problem scheduleding the ride to audax timing only exists because I want to take a few days off as part of the ride.

Plenty of different ways to do it, 200km a day average over 14.5 days  would be my first choice, but looking at all the options. Need definite answers if would be 14.5 days for 2500km and if can fall behind maximum times and make up later on DIY by GPS)

EDIT Jord, just looked and appears maximum distance for DIY (GPS or not) is 1000km???? Seems strange.... looks like going to have to break ride up....

Alouicious

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #13 on: 24 June, 2011, 06:05:31 pm »
I thought in the DIY by GPS guide the was a limit on distance for this type of ride. Is this incorrect?

It says "up to 1,000 km".

Chris N

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #14 on: 24 June, 2011, 06:27:49 pm »
I've had a 1300km DIY validated. You should contact your DIY org for clarification.

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #15 on: 24 June, 2011, 06:45:54 pm »
Unless it's a "recent" (which I define as after 2003) rule there's no maximum lengh for permanent rides.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #16 on: 24 June, 2011, 07:39:13 pm »
Quote
The problem with that is you go from 1000km in 5 days (120h), as part of a long ride > 2499km, to having to do the 1000km in 75 hours (13.3kph), that's a difference of 45 hours!

Hence the reason I am thinking about upping the distance to take me into that cartography... Just trying to work out if there is another way to do it....

Although get less time to ride, get more breaks "off the clock", if did that way. Would take a couple of days off between rides (each about 32 hours out the saddle eg 10pm stop riding, day off, start riding 6am), Plus would break 1000km up so got some long nights off (12 hours out the saddle). Need to do maths and see how could be fitted in with 24 hour days, but may work out similar due to amount of time taken out "off the clock" between the various sections....

But a DIY 1000km must be done within 75 hours, plus 32 hours off the bike (107h) is still 13 hours less then the 120hours you get for that 1000km portion of a 2500km ride.

1000km in 75 hours.
32 hours off
400km in 28 hours (14.3kph)
32 hours off
900km in 67h40m

= 234.4 hours

2500km in 12.5 days = 300 hours.

So you're still better off with doing it all in one go.

It does, however, depend on whether being out of time for some of the intermediate controls is a problem. With the above schedule (or a complete day off between rides) you'll be fine though.

To really push the schedule you could do:-

1000km in 75 hours.
45 hours off the bike.
400km in 28 hours.
20 hours off the bike.
900km in 108 hours.

And still always be within time (@200km per day).

But, obviously, with one ride you risk losing it all if something goes wrong.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #17 on: 24 June, 2011, 08:33:00 pm »
I thought in the DIY by GPS guide the was a limit on distance for this type of ride. Is this incorrect?


It says "up to 1,000 km".

probably; John has to create a specific distance on the website in order to enter a result for it; anything over 1000 would have to be created specially; hence not every permutation is offered. I now offer a DIY 500 following a request from one rider.


DIY orgs are able to validate rides up to 600km; anything longer is passed to John Ward for validation. And the DIY validation app applies a blanket minimum of 14.3kph which can be ignored for rides over 699 or under 200km

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #18 on: 24 June, 2011, 08:34:56 pm »
If you can validate a longer ride it may be worth someone changing the DIY by GPS guide?

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #19 on: 27 June, 2011, 10:29:43 am »
You are right Greenback, the longer distance in one defiantly seems the way to go (if get the right answers to below...).

Think will contact the DIY via GPS organizer to see if can get definite answers to the following:-


Can you do DIY (via GPS) for rides over 1000km?

For a 2500km ride do you get 12 or 12 1/2 days?

Do you just have to hit the full distance point in the required time or are the minimum daily limits enforced on route (ie do you have to hit the intermediate controls at required times)?




Alouicious

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #20 on: 27 June, 2011, 12:47:21 pm »
Studying the awards lists, there is a badge for a R1000 but not a medal.

Riding Randos longer than 1000 would count towards a 'Mileater'; and of course boost one's points tally.

An E2E BR only gets a R1000 badge ( plus the lovely E2E medal ) although its 1400.


The regs say

5.6 Distances: standard distances for events are 200, 300, 400 and 600 km but any distance over 200 km may be
offered.

5.7 (i)
"for events from 1900 to 2499 km - 10kph; and
for events over 2499 km, 200 km per day."

So I guess if one offers a R10,000, just keep riding 201 per day until fatigue sets in.
When it does, the DIY organiser should credit you with the distance rounded down to the nearest 100.

I couldn't see any objection,,   :thumbsup:


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #21 on: 27 June, 2011, 01:00:07 pm »
I thought any distance, Audax, commuting or whatever, counted for a Mileater.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Alouicious

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #22 on: 27 June, 2011, 01:05:20 pm »
I thought any distance, Audax, commuting or whatever, counted for a Mileater.

Yes.

Riding Randos over 1000 don't have there individual medals. There isn't a R2000 medal, for instance, so a 2000 DIY will get 20 points and of course score to a Mileater total.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #23 on: 27 June, 2011, 01:17:49 pm »
You could always get a generic medal from Neville custom engraved. Not listed in the handbook any more?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: DIY minimum speed
« Reply #24 on: 27 June, 2011, 01:22:01 pm »
So I guess if one offers a R10,000, just keep riding 201 per day until fatigue sets in.
When it does, the DIY organiser should credit you with the distance rounded down to the nearest 100.

Eh?

200km per day is simply the formula for calculating time allowed for rides greater than 2,499km. It does not mean you have to ride 200km per day.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...