Sky - gaming the system?

[TigaSefi]

My mistake. I thought Soler rode for Team Sky!

[mattc]

I don't often read parliamentary reports, so I've only just been made aware of one angle to the report hotly discussed in this thread.

The authors have full legal protection - they could slander/libel Sky as much as they want. They don't need to worry about the niceties of "evidence".

So if they actually think Sky/Wiggins cheated, they would surely have said so. Instead they've made it quite clear that they didn't:


“
This does not constitute a violation of the World Anti-Doping Agency code, but it does cross the ethical line that David Brailsford says he himself drew for Team Sky. In this case, and contrary to the testimony of David Brailsford in front of the committee, we believe that drugs were being used by Team Sky, within the Wada rules, to enhance the performance of riders, and not just to treat medical need.
”

[Si S]

The paragraph you've quoted only shows they don't understand the WADA code, the bold line contradicts the last line.

[Si S]

The Therapeutic Use of the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is
highly unlikely to produce any additional enhancement of performance
beyond what might be anticipated by a return to the Athlete’s normal state of
health following the treatment of the acute or chronic medical condition
(ISTUE Article 4.1(b)).
Although there may be some enhancement of individual performance as a
result of the efficacy of the treatment, nevertheless, such enhancement must
not exceed the level of performance of the Athlete prior to the onset of
his/her medical condition

Apparently Lapartient has referred it to CADF, that'll be the final word.

[Si S]

I don't often read parliamentary reports, so I've only just been made aware of one angle to the report hotly discussed in this thread.

The authors have full legal protection - they could slander/libel Sky as much as they want. They don't need to worry about the niceties of "evidence".

So if they actually think Sky/Wiggins cheated, they would surely have said so.

Oh this, now if  I was a Tory DCMS chairing a committee (yeah, right) I might consider the Venn diagram that contains Sky-kit-wearing-pinarello-riding-knight-of-the-realm-hero-worshippers and Tory-voters, then use a weasel word like belief that allows me to back-pedal.

Now you'll have to excuse me, my tinfoil hat needs a polish 

[citoyen]

Apparently Lapartient has referred it to CADF, that'll be the final word.

It will be a good test of the independence of the CADF.

[Si S]

Apparently Lapartient has referred it to CADF, that'll be the final word.

It will be a good test of the independence of the CADF.

Possibly, personally I think he should have left alone, in the eyes of many if CADF don't sanction it's credibility will be badly damaged and that won't be good for the sport.

What narks me about the committee is it was supposed to look at drugs in UK sport and became almost totally focused on Wiggins.

Hardly a mention of Mo Farah's habits of training in places with no anti-doping, his long term association with a convicted EPO supplier, the fact that his passport went from 'likely doping' to 'normal' the instant Seb Coe became head of athletics. Nothing on Radcliffe's crazy off scores. Not a whisper about entire football teams repeatedly failing whereabouts.

Drugs? Yeah, that'll be those dirty cyclists 

[sojournermike]

Apparently Lapartient has referred it to CADF, that'll be the final word.

It will be a good test of the independence of the CADF.

...

What narks me about the committee is it was supposed to look at drugs in UK sport and became almost totally focused on Wiggins.

Hardly a mention of Mo Farah's habits of training in places with no anti-doping, his long term association with a convicted EPO supplier, the fact that his passport went from 'likely doping' to 'normal' the instant Seb Coe became head of athletics. Nothing on Radcliffe's crazy off scores. Not a whisper about entire football teams repeatedly failing whereabouts.

Drugs? Yeah, that'll be those dirty cyclists 

Completely agree. I, and I’m sure others, have been making this point for what feels like ages. Plus, it’s not as though Wiggins is the only offender.

I was surprised to hear that Radio 4 this morning had an article that was introduced as being relevant to the need for a change in the English self view that ‘we would never cheat at sport’, as we come face to face with a new (or old) era

[mattc]

I tore up my flag of St George back when cherubic national hero Michael  Owen dived at the World Cup

[sojournermike]

I tore up my flag of St George back when cherubic national hero Michael  Owen dived at the World Cup

I’m not aware of the event or the player, but I think that’s an entirely appropriate response.

On cycling, I’ve always worked on the basis that it is not a clean sport by tradition and it is the hypocracy at Sky that galls. Athletics disappoints me, but that’s just my background and I find it mildly amusing that football has so rapidly added performance enhancing drugs to the heady cocktail of performance reducing drugs traditionally associated with the game.

[DuncanM]

There was an interesting series of tweets from Ross Tucker (@scienceofsport) saying that the report suggested that Sky found a new means of using legalised doping to gain an advantage. The old way used to be take a light guy and then build his sustainable power by boosting his oxygen carrying ability. The Sky way is to take a track guy with a huge amount of power, and then strip the weight off him while keeping the power by using kenacort. If used out of competition, as I understand it, it's semi legal.

[mattc]

If used out of competition, as I understand it, it's semi legal.

or "legal", in common with all other tactics that are not against the rules!!!

[DuncanM]

It's not tested for out of competition - are you really allowed to take as much of it as you like for whatever reasons?
In competition, even with a TUEs, taking kenacort for performance enhancing reasons is against the rules.

[mattc]

It's not tested for out of competition - are you really allowed to take as much of it as you like for whatever reasons?
In competition, even with a TUEs, taking kenacort for performance enhancing reasons is against the rules.

There is a simple question to ask about all these issues:
"Is there a rule against it?"

Admittedly, your post highlights quite an important pre-requisite: is the rule enforced??

I don't actually know anything about kenacort - mea culpa! - but it amuses me that folks want to hang teams/riders for not breaking any rules. Sure, state your moral objections, but try to accept that everything legal in a particular sport is ... er ... legal.

Never lose sight of how much rule-breaking is routinely accepted by the peleton. Plus ca change:

[DuncanM]

Kenacort is a brand name for Triamcinolone (but a lot easier to spell!). The DCMS said they thought it was in the jiffy bag. That would make it used in competition, which is a doping infraction.
Some Belgian races block off the cycle paths. If you don't, and you don't apply retroactive sanctions, IMO you can't complain. The difference between that and drugs is that it's out in the open (TV, your photo, etc)....

[Hot Flatus]

Don't forget that the other Sky filth is potentially far more damaging; Froome's likely ban but perhaps worse the GMCs investigation into the delivery of banned drugs to Sky/BC headquarters. This story isn't over. In fact it has barely started.

[mattc]

Some Belgian races block off the cycle paths. If you don't, and you don't apply retroactive sanctions, IMO you can't complain. The difference between that and drugs is that it's out in the open (TV, your photo, etc)....

Yeah sure, the clandestine nature of drugs does tend to skew fans' emotive reactions. But then again, real fans, the knowledgable ones (like Flatus  ) know that drug abuse has been a part of cycling from day one. It pretty much IS out in the open - almost everyone knows about it!

[Si S]

It's not tested for out of competition - are you really allowed to take as much of it as you like for whatever reasons?
In competition, even with a TUEs, taking kenacort for performance enhancing reasons is against the rules.

Yep, totally legal.

[Si S]

Some Belgian races block off the cycle paths. If you don't, and you don't apply retroactive sanctions, IMO you can't complain. The difference between that and drugs is that it's out in the open (TV, your photo, etc)....

Yeah sure, the clandestine nature of drugs does tend to skew fans' emotive reactions. But then again, real fans, the knowledgable ones (like Flatus  ) know that drug abuse has been a part of cycling from day one. It pretty much IS out in the open - almost everyone knows about it!

The one that always amuses me is Pelissier in the 20's referring to cocaine and chloroform - "We run on dynamite" 

[Cudzoziemiec]

I was surprised to hear that Radio 4 this morning had an article that was introduced as being relevant to the need for a change in the English self view that ‘we would never cheat at sport’, as we come face to face with a new (or old) era

Yes, though I'm not sure that's really the English self view so much as the view of ourselves we like to think foreigners hold.

[Hot Flatus]

Yeah sure, the clandestine nature of drugs does tend to skew fans' emotive reactions. But then again, real fans, the knowledgable ones (like Flatus  ) know that drug abuse has been a part of cycling from day one. It pretty much IS out in the open - almost everyone knows about it!

Still can't stop humping my leg, Matt?

[David Martin]

There was an interesting series of tweets from Ross Tucker (@scienceofsport) saying that the report suggested that Sky found a new means of using legalised doping to gain an advantage. The old way used to be take a light guy and then build his sustainable power by boosting his oxygen carrying ability. The Sky way is to take a track guy with a huge amount of power, and then strip the weight off him while keeping the power by using kenacort. If used out of competition, as I understand it, it's semi legal.

This was not Sky, it was Vaughters lot. Look at Wiggins performance in the Giro up until he dropped off the lead group and subsequent 4th in the Tour that year. It also underestimates the seriously huge dedication you need to perform at that level and reduce weight. Very difficult without serious motivation and mental strength. Wiggins was a contender before he signed for Sky.

[DuncanM]

There was an interesting series of tweets from Ross Tucker (@scienceofsport) saying that the report suggested that Sky found a new means of using legalised doping to gain an advantage. The old way used to be take a light guy and then build his sustainable power by boosting his oxygen carrying ability. The Sky way is to take a track guy with a huge amount of power, and then strip the weight off him while keeping the power by using kenacort. If used out of competition, as I understand it, it's semi legal.

This was not Sky, it was Vaughters lot. Look at Wiggins performance in the Giro up until he dropped off the lead group and subsequent 4th in the Tour that year. It also underestimates the seriously huge dedication you need to perform at that level and reduce weight. Very difficult without serious motivation and mental strength. Wiggins was a contender before he signed for Sky.

This was Ross Tucker saying it, not me. He applied it to Wiggins, Froome and G (though why it doesn't apply to Stannard or the other trackies I don't know).
Slipstream are part of MPCC, so that's a significant statement. I believe the 4th was subsequently raised to 3rd after the American Who Must Not Be Named ceased to have any results. The 3rd was also about 5 minutes down on Contador, so he wasn't as contendery as one might think - he lost a lot of time in the mountains.

[Karla]

Did you see how wafer-thin he looked though?  Properly ill-looking thin. 

[simonp]

You mean like this?

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/299278337708367730/