Is the (discontinued) Campag Athena groupset any good?

[Oxford_Guy]

sorry I meant to say UT not PT but in practice they work about as well as one another and the main differences are in servicing.  The chainline is basically not very adjustable with either system.

The ratios on the 12-30 cassette don't look that bad but may be a triple would be better. No reason you can't mix and match to use 30-40-50 or similar, using a campag ST triple.  The triple setup weighs about 100-200g more than the double, something like that, depending on how you work it out.

Thanks, will have a think about what would be best to do regarding whether to go for a double (possibly UT) or a triple (ST, not PT) - though if going for Campag either of these would have to be NOS or used. Stronglight is another option, obviously, if going the ST route.

BTW I've now purchased a silver 10-speed Campag Veloce rear-derailleur (medium cage), as found one for a good price, so that's a start. Like this:





BTW if going for a double, can I use pretty much *any* Campag double mech with my levers, even if going for a compact 34/50 chainset?

[Oxford_Guy]

Another option (presumably not using a Campag ring for the 48T) could be a 48/34 compact - a somewhat nicer 12T jump instead of 14T and with a  12-30 cassette still a good usable range (105" is plenty for me!):



That is assuming 29.9" is low enough for me to get up hills (unladen)

[Phil W]

This may be an option for your crankset double. Polished silver and nicely unbranded.

https://spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2015/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Double-Chainset-with-TA-chainrings

[Oxford_Guy]

This may be an option for your crankset double. Polished silver and nicely unbranded.

https://spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2015/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Double-Chainset-with-TA-chainrings

Those do look good, and with a much less rough finish on the inside of the cranks than the Stronglight cranks. Also available in 165mm (unlike Campag), which is more ideal for me than 170mm. 48/34 (and other combinations available) too. I've been pretty happy with the TA (Chinook) chain rings I put on the SLX triple cranks on my Cheviot, apart from some chain rub on the pins in 34/11. I guess shifting may not be quite as smooth as if using a Campag chainset, though.

This could lead to the somewhat unusual situation of having an external BB on my touring bike (on Shimano SLX cranks) and a square taper one on my audax/sportive bike \o/

[Brucey]

regarding the FD, any mech can be controlled using your shifters but that is not to say that it is a perfect match for the chainset;  ideally it ought to be matched to the chainring interval you are planning to use.

If the interval is less than the mech  is designed for, then you may get a clash with the inside chainring, which can only be avoided by raising the mech too high and risking an overshift off the big ring.

If the interval is much wider than the mech is meant for it will work but there is an increased risk of the chain overshifting off the inside of the small chainring. In truth with modern systems there is no way of completely eliminating this possibility anyway ( one a 10s/11s chain gets a bit worn it is basically so floppy it can go anywhere it likes...) hence jump stops and various gadgets like that are a good idea.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

regarding the FD, any mech can be controlled using your shifters but that is not to say that it is a perfect match for the chainset;  ideally it ought to be matched to the chainring interval you are planning to use.

If the interval is less than the mech  is designed for, then you may get a clash with the inside chainring, which can only be avoided by raising the mech too high and risking an overshift off the big ring.

If the interval is much wider than the mech is meant for it will work but there is an increased risk of the chain overshifting off the inside of the small chainring. In truth with modern systems there is no way of completely eliminating this possibility anyway ( one a 10s/11s chain gets a bit worn it is basically so floppy it can go anywhere it likes...) hence jump stops and various gadgets like that are a good idea.

Okay, though that makes me think it may be better to use a more recent campag FD that is designed to work with compact chainset intervals than an older one which is not? Most of the "10 speed" relatively recently-produced Veloce/Centaur FDs I've seen for sale seem to be for braze-on only or 35mm band (not 32mm or smaller), which would be too large for a steel frame, though.

[Brucey]

using a BO FD with an adaptor is a good scheme , and ultimately will cut down on the number of unused FDs that are knocking around in your bits box.

It is possible to file the adapter so that the mech is a better fit to the exact chainring size that you are using; no more 'tail high' or 'tail low' mountings. The adaptors also allow fine tuning of chainline in some cases (by choosing a different adaptor).

Also there are some band-on FDs that don't hold their toe setting as the band is tightened, which is kind of frustrating. A BO mech with an adapter is much easier to adjust, since fine adjustments can be carried out using the BO mount.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

sorry I meant to say UT not PT but in practice they work about as well as one another and the main differences are in servicing.  The chainline is basically not very adjustable with either system.

The ratios on the 12-30 cassette don't look that bad but may be a triple would be better. No reason you can't mix and match to use 30-40-50 or similar, using a campag ST triple.  The triple setup weighs about 100-200g more than the double, something like that, depending on how you work it out.

I've just purchased a 2008 NOS Campagnolo Comp Triple 10-Speed 30-40-50 triple on eBay...



Just need to find a suitable front derailleur and square taper BB...

EDIT: Front derailleur now sourced:



It's a braze-on, though, so will likely need something like this, I think:

[Oxford_Guy]

These posts suggests that for the "comp triple" chainset (which is what I bought) I need 115mm BB spindle length, not 111m, like Chorus and above - so Centaur would be the best quality one for 115mm, I think? Pity they all Centaur ST BBs seem to be black, not silver, though..

https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12639132
https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12637825

On the other hand, this product page just implies that 115mm is for triples on oversized 32mm or 35mm tubing, whereas 11m is for triples on regular 28.6mm tubing (which is what I have on my Cheviot and also almost certainly on the steel Audax frame I want to use the chainset with):

http://www.velomine.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86_476_480&products_id=2126

The frame will be most likely English, so English thread 68mm

Which is correct? For a 28.6mm frame, can I use a 111mm Record BB with the Comp Triple chainset? e.g. https://www.totalcycling.com/en/gb/Campagnolo-Record-Triple-Bottom-Bracket/m-18848.aspx

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I use Veloce/ Chorus/ Centaur symmetric 111mm BBs on my steel-framed bike with Campag triple. The Record 111mm axle is asymmetric.

[Oxford_Guy]

I use Veloce/ Chorus/ Centaur symmetric 111mm BBs on my steel-framed bike with Campag triple. The Record 111mm axle is asymmetric.

Thanks - I'm having problems find any Chorus 111mm BBs, though...

[Paul H]

I use Veloce/ Chorus/ Centaur symmetric 111mm BBs on my steel-framed bike with Campag triple. The Record 111mm axle is asymmetric.

Thanks - I'm having problems find any Chorus 111mm BBs, though...

Try here, they have the Centaur in stock - 
http://www.londonbicycleworkshop.com/1702/products/tifosi-square-taper-iso-bottom-bracket-bsa-115mm.aspx

 I was looking for a Tifosi link, I have one with my Campag triple and it seems fine, though I've read a couple of poor reviews.

[Oxford_Guy]

I use Veloce/ Chorus/ Centaur symmetric 111mm BBs on my steel-framed bike with Campag triple. The Record 111mm axle is asymmetric.

Thanks - I'm having problems find any Chorus 111mm BBs, though...

Try here, they have the Centaur in stock - 
http://www.londonbicycleworkshop.com/1702/products/tifosi-square-taper-iso-bottom-bracket-bsa-115mm.aspx

 I was looking for a Tifosi link, I have one with my Campag triple and it seems fine, though I've read a couple of poor reviews.

Would prefer genuine Campag.

I've found a few silver 111mm NOS CAMPAGNOLO AC-H bottom brackets for sale, which I think are meant to be Centaur level, but are the newer (black) Centaur BBs better? Sounds like the older AC-H BBs only had two cartridge bearings, whereas the newer (black) Centaur BBs have 3 cartridge bearings - two on the drive side. Not sure how much difference that makes in practice, though.

[Oxford_Guy]

I have BR-650 with Veloce levers (1990s  8 speed) with no problems.

Campag callipers and mudguards is an issue because the shape of Campag arms is more rounded so tend to push the mudguard around under braking where the same depth Shimano does not.  At least this is what I was told in the 1990s.  I found it true that the front mudguard gets pushed around and so I use Continental tyres which, being lowish profile, allows me to set the mudguard lower in the fork crown.  I have 2006 Centaur callipers (used with 1992 Record ergo levers) which were an oddity in having a depth of 52mm, used with a 25mm Gatorskin I have reasonable mudguard clearance.

Hi Tatanab - are these the same callipers? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Campagnolo-Centaur-Brakes-2006-Front-Rear/121586887929

If so and (with suitable forks) they might work with 25mm tyres and slim mudguards (e.g. 35mm SKS Bluemells), I'd be willing to give them a go

[Brucey]

mechanically there is little to choose between any of the campag ST BBs with three bearings in (which includes centaur). I think a 111mm will work with a triple in most half-decent steel audax frames. 115mm gives a bad chainline by comparison (but it may be necessary if the seat tube or chainstays are stupidly fat). You can always space a 111mm BB unit by ~1mm from the RHS of the BB shell if you need to, but I don't expect you will.

 The tifosi/token BBs are OK but they are not as durable and their version of the ISO taper is not the same as campags either which means that the chainline for any given BB spindle length is different. For example I have seen a campag ST triple fitted using a 102mm token BB.

Note that the 'perfect' chainline for the centreline of  10s cassette on a 130mm OLN wheel is about 52mm  from the bike centreline.   I would choose to have about this chainline on the big ring, not the middle one, which means the chainline on the middle ring ought to be about 44mm, and the inner ring about 36mm, i.e. the inner chainring should be flush with or overhang the edge of a 68mm BB shell slightly.

[edit; this is cobblers; - I was thinking 'is this right?' this as I wrote it-  the perfect chainline is of course about 42mm not 52mm. Basic maths error...duh!  Basically this means that if you intend to spent most of your time on the big ring and to have the 30T for emergencies then you want the chainrings as close to the chainstays as you can get them.]

All this talk of different brakes is entirely moot since it depends what the frame you choose is built to accept. You may just lurve the idea of campag diddly-doo brakes in ~50mm drop but if the frame you buy needs 53mm drop brakes you are stuffed. Personally I don't think it is a good idea to use 25mm tyres and mudguards with a ~50mm drop brake on an audax bike because the clearance is very small and it stops you from using 28mm tyres if you want to.

BTW the BR-R650 brakes are superb quality and have things like ball-bearing thrust bearings in the main pivots and so forth.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Brucey - thanks for the very helpful feedback on the BBs. I guess I will try the modern Campag Centaur BB in 111mm (English thread), sounds like this should be okay on a decent non-oversized Audax frame (e.g. Mercian) and there is no Chrous in 111mm.

Re: the brakes - I guess it's just because I see this mostly as a spring/summer bike, so need for permanent mudguards is perhaps less (though that's never a given in the UK...), if the weather looked really foul for a ride, I would probably go on the Cheviot instead, almost certainly in winter, which is setup as a fast tourer. But, it would certainly be nice to have the option of proper mudguards for audax-type rides even in summer, with British weather being so unpredictable.

Surely if specifying the frame/forks myself (e.g. to Mercian), though, there would be some scope to set a requirement for clearance for 25mm tyres and mudguards with 50mm (or perhaps 52mm) drop? Or am I living in dreamland

Would using Aican offset brake shoes in extremis be viable to try to extend the reach, or are they just a bad idea (bit ugly for a start...)?: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AICAN-Aluminum-C-Brake-Shoes-for-fit-Mini-Velos-smal-Shimano-Sram-1-Pair/252782117509



BTW some of the photos I've seen of the BR-R650s seem to show them more as a flat anodised greyish silver, rather than a more polished-looking silver - are there two types?

[Brucey]

given that brake blocks don't always stay put anyway, having them offset is a bit of a bodge. The brake also loses MA; by contrast a brake that is designed to have a long reach from the start has longer arms at the top as well so retains a high MA. If you want the most powerful DP brakes, using a caliper that is much deeper drop than is necessary (i.e. with the brake blocks in the top of the slots, not the bottom) will do it.

Re BR-R650 brakes; I have seen silver ones and black ones; they may vary from this. There is also the BR-R450 model which looks similar but is not as well made, with a different finish. The BR-R650 model is 'non series' but when it was launched it was said to be 'Ultegra quality'.

Mercian make nice frames that will (just) accept campag brakes with mudguard fittings. So do some others. But most folk that own them run 23mm tyres if they use mudguards regularly.

NB I just realised I made a basic maths error regarding the chainline in the post above; this essentially  means that if you want to use the two bigger chainrings of a triple most of the time, but to have the inner for emergencies then you want the chainrings as close to the chainstays as possible.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

given that brake blocks don't always stay put anyway, having them offset is a bit of a bodge. The brake also loses MA; by contrast a brake that is designed to have a long reach from the start has longer arms at the top as well so retains a high MA. If you want the most powerful DP brakes, using a caliper that is much deeper drop than is necessary (i.e. with the brake blocks in the top of the slots, not the bottom) will do it.

Re BR-R650 brakes; I have seen silver ones and black ones; they may vary from this. There is also the BR-R450 model which looks similar but is not as well made, with a different finish. The BR-R650 model is 'non series' but when it was launched it was said to be 'Ultegra quality'.

Mercian make nice frames that will (just) accept campag brakes with mudguard fittings. So do some others. But most folk that own them run 23mm tyres if they use mudguards regularly.

Okay, so sounds like the silver BR-R450s should actually be silver rather than the silver-grey of more recent Shimano "silver" components, which would make them a bit more palatable.

There is another option for running mudguards with narrow clearances, which is to use SKS Raceblade Longs or Crud RoadRacers, but then I suppose it's the mudguard part that becomes more of a bodge, rather than the brakes, and obviously they don't give the coverage of full guards and I suspect they rattle more. Might be an option for occasional use, though.

NB I just realised I made a basic maths error regarding the chainline in the post above; this essentially  means that if you want to use the two bigger chainrings of a triple most of the time, but to have the inner for emergencies then you want the chainrings as close to the chainstays as possible.

I suspect that most of the time, apart from downhill sections, I will be in the middle 40T ring, at least if using a 12-30 or 13-29 cassette. although maybe with a lighter bike than I'm used to (currently either my Hewitt Cheviot SE or a Brompton M6R) I may find I'm looking for higher gears:


[click for larger image]

12-30:



13-29:

[Samuel D]

The BR-R650 callipers are properly silver unlike many ‘silver’ Shimano components today. But of course they’re not bare, polished alloy.

These two sticklers for shiny parts seem happy with their BR-R650 purchases:

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115514&start=30#p1142026
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115514&start=60#p1143378
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115514&start=60#p1143698

I don’t see a legitimate objection to mixing Campagnolo and Shimano on a bicycle and prefer that to slavishly following group theory. When I see a bicycle with carefully selected components from multiple manufacturers I have good thoughts about the owner.

Probably best to decide on the frame before going much further with the planning and especially buying.

[Oxford_Guy]

The BR-R650 callipers are properly silver unlike many ‘silver’ Shimano components today. But of course they’re not bare, polished alloy.

These two sticklers for shiny parts seem happy with their BR-R650 purchases:

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115514&start=30#p1142026
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115514&start=60#p1143378
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115514&start=60#p1143698

I don’t see a legitimate objection to mixing Campagnolo and Shimano on a bicycle and prefer that to slavishly following group theory. When I see a bicycle with carefully selected components from multiple manufacturers I have good thoughts about the owner.

Probably best to decide on the frame before going much further with the planning and especially buying.

Thanks, that sounds like the right sort of silver, then!

I'm not completely against using non-Campagnolo brakes, just trying to work out what my options would be. The BR-R650s do sound like the best option if I decide to go for full mudguards and yes, I should probably sort out the frame before getting more components

[Brucey]

re the gearing; were you not enslaved by the 12-13-14-15 arrangement of standard cassettes, you could have a better chainline onto the sprockets you are most likely to use on the big ring, such as 17,19 etc.

It might make sense to space an 11s cassette and use that rather than be stuck with the standard 10s ratios. Dunno how it works in campag cassettes but (for example) in shimano ones a 10s 11-28 goes

11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28

and an 11s one goes

11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28

and I think a similar logic applies to other cassette variants, i.e. in 11s cassettes they give you an extra large one (which you might use) rather than an extra small one (which you won't unless you like pedalling down hills or you are actually racing).

so you could ditch one of the smaller sprockets from an 11s cassette, respace the others (where possible) and make an 10s cassette more to your choice.

However there will be a small index error wherever the sprockets are riveted to a carrier; in shimano 105 11s cassettes (say) the largest three are riveted to a carrier and the rest can be respaced which means that one indexed shift (to the second largest sprocket) will have an error of about 0.2mm which in practice is unlikely to cause trouble.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Just need to find a suitable front derailleur and square taper BB...

EDIT: Front derailleur now sourced:

One question about the front derailleur that I bought, it says on it "10 speed QS" - I assume "QS" stands for "Quickshift"? I have seen some Veloce Ergo levers of the same era as the Comp triple chainset that have "QS" on the left lever,  though my 10 speed Veloce ergos don't. What is the difference here? Will this affect the operation of the FD with my non-QS Ergos or will I somehow benefit anyway (or will the fact that the FD is QS make things worse than a non-QS FD with my levers)? Is this QS business generally a good or bad thing? Thanks

I still have much to learn about Campagnolo stuff!

[Brucey]

IIRC (I may not.... ) QS was a sort of semi-indexed front shifting. When campag launched QS they altered the shift ratio of the FDs.  You will not have  problems with your combination (I think) because there are enough clicks and enough cable pull.

However if you plan to run a non-QS FD with a QS shifter then you need to alter the shift ratio of the FD, for which purpose there is a 'widget' that campag sell for this exact purpose. The widget bolts onto the FD pinch bolt and effectively lengthens the FD arm slightly.

There is a compatibility chart in the spares pdfs for the years immediately following QS introduction.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Thanks Brucey, so it sounds like a) my shifters will probably work okay with this FD and b) QS levers are not as compatible with as large a variety of FDs as non-QS levers (like mine)? Or have I misunderstood the latter point?

I suppose that shifting a QS FD with a QS ergo would be quicker, though

[Brucey]

..... it sounds like a) my shifters will probably work okay with this FD and b) QS levers are not as compatible with as large a variety of FDs as non-QS levers (like mine)? .....

exactly so

cheers