My ElliptiGO Ride at Mille Cymru 2014.

[hellymedic]

I can't ride at all now but NEVER had any pace. I was always Lanterne Rouge and avoided hills as much as possible.
I slept *very* little and ate often; it was the only way I could do any Audaxing.
I completed most of the rides I entered.

[Graeme]

Idai,

I'm totally impressed with your preparation and determination.  It sounds like the elliptiGO is an inappropriate machine to ride this sort of event, if the mechanism to achieve the time limit is to go without sleep and fast.  It might have worked for you if you hadn't got lost and wasted an hour, but as you said you weren't thinking straight.  Given the amount of training and determination you've shown I'd expect you might have been among the first back if you'd been on a bicycle.  Certainly the elliptiGO isn't an appropriate machine for anyone less determined and less capable of riding without sleep and without food.  It is an interesting machine, but other interesting machines make the ride more accessible not less accessible.

Bloody well done for trying.  I was a DNS.  Metatarsalgia has reduced me to hobbling on crutches.

[EGO-Maniac]

There is a principle here that really matters more than the 'science'. 
I think the 4 minute mile is a case in point.  Before Bannister it was never achieved or at least recorded.  Since Bannister... well over 1000 runners have broken the 4 minute barrier.  I do not believe this can be accounted for by clothing or shoes...it is just that they realized they could whereas before they were sure it was impossible.

It was Henry Ford who said 'If you think you can or you think you can't your are probably right'.

Yes, that's quite eloquently put. In 'grown-up' society we spend too much time focussing on what people can't do, rather than letting them broaden our horizons. I feel strongly about this aspect of life. The only thing I tell my children they "can't do" is disobey my commands...

[vorsprung]

LittleWheelsandBig - I simply didn't have the pace - like many of the other riders who took part. We all have our pace - this weekend was as good as I've paced so far in a multi day event - just not good enough on the day...

I think what LWaB and me and others (virtually everything I've ever read on the subject) are saying is that you cannot generate as much power during "fasting" as you can with a moderate input of carbohydrates.  Mainly because the stored "carbohydrates" in the body is quite limited

Therefore if you altered your fuelling strategy you would go faster.

[vorsprung]

There is a principle here that really matters more than the 'science'. 
I think the 4 minute mile is a case in point.  Before Bannister it was never achieved or at least recorded.  Since Bannister... well over 1000 runners have broken the 4 minute barrier.  I do not believe this can be accounted for by clothing or shoes...it is just that they realized they could whereas before they were sure it was impossible.

It was Henry Ford who said 'If you think you can or you think you can't your are probably right'.

Yes, that's quite eloquently put. In 'grown-up' society we spend too much time focussing on what people can't do, rather than letting them broaden our horizons. I feel strongly about this aspect of life. The only thing I tell my children they "can't do" is disobey my commands...

Wishful thinking can't make me fly

[EGO-Maniac]

Idai,

I'm totally impressed with your preparation and determination.  It sounds like the elliptiGO is an inappropriate machine to ride this sort of event, if the mechanism to achieve the time limit is to go without sleep and fast.  It might have worked for you if you hadn't got lost and wasted an hour, but as you said you weren't thinking straight.  Given the amount of training and determination you've shown I'd expect you might have been among the first back if you'd been on a bicycle.  Certainly the elliptiGO isn't an appropriate machine for anyone less determined and less capable of riding without sleep and without food.  It is an interesting machine, but other interesting machines make the ride more accessible not less accessible.

Bloody well done for trying.  I was a DNS.  Metatarsalgia has reduced me to hobbling on crutches.

What is an appropriate machine - an aeroplane? I think the reasons people do this go beyond the ease of getting through. A friend took me back along the course in a car, in order to reach the start where I had left my car. But I didn't think my comrades still riding were idiots because they chose to ride bikes rather than drive.. One of the guys I was riding with got through on an ElliptiGO - and two dozen guys on road bikes failed.

Yes, it would be much more straight forward on a light road bike - but that's not what I do and that's not how I challenge myself...

[EGO-Maniac]

LittleWheelsandBig - I simply didn't have the pace - like many of the other riders who took part. We all have our pace - this weekend was as good as I've paced so far in a multi day event - just not good enough on the day...

I think what LWaB and me and others (virtually everything I've ever read on the subject) are saying is that you cannot generate as much power during "fasting" as you can with a moderate input of carbohydrates.  Mainly because the stored "carbohydrates" in the body is quite limited

Therefore if you altered your fuelling strategy you would go faster.

I understand what you are saying "vorsprung" - and I appreciate it - but the facts are that I have been able to generate more force using the newer training method than I was previously, which is why I chose to go that route in the event...

[EGO-Maniac]

I was a DNS.  Metatarsalgia has reduced me to hobbling on crutches.

Really sorry to hear this. How long will it take to be back on the road?

[Graeme]

I was a DNS.  Metatarsalgia has reduced me to hobbling on crutches.

Really sorry to hear this. How long will it take to be back on the road?

A while - I can't risk supporting my family just for the fun of cycling - but I will be back and hope to see you at PBP.

Don't get me wrong about the elliptiGO... it is a method of riding an audax; human powered and totally within the spirit of the event.  And chapeau for trying.  I'm just thinking that many of us consider audax to be a long distance challenge, but a challenge that is accessible to a lot of people.  The elliptiGO has made this a harder challenge, clearly not impossible, but hard enough that someone with your utter determination still needs to fast / no sleep to complete.  Well done for trying, well done for going and going and going... but gosh, I wouldn't dream of using an elliptiGO for a 100k event, let alone a 1000k event.

I like enjoying audaxes.  I like stopping for a beer while off-route and lost.  I can imagine myself trying to do what you did and I can imagine myself utterly unhappy.  It is a big credit that in every photograph you manage to be smiling.

Well done.  Really well done for trying and lovely write up.  Pushing boundaries... well done.

[EGO-Maniac]

Thanks Graeme, I appreciate that.

Riding an ElliptiGO's not really that different to other bikes in a long distance challenge - even if it is a little slower (ask those Audaxers who do both, I know a few). It's still the same sort of experience (unless you are on the hardest imaginable courses, I suppose!) and it makes for an interesting challenge, in a different way. It would probably be harder to attempt this MC event on a velomobile or recumbent - different bikes have different strengths and weaknesses.

What I face on an ElliptiGO is similar to what many so-called "full value riders" face on road bikes. They aren't super fast, but they know they can plan and strategise to get round comfortably enough. It's a challenge for everyone who does these events, but different people challenge themselves at different levels - and in different ways.

I really hope you recover sooner rather than later and can get active again. It would be good to catch up on the roads in the near future.

Idai

[caerau]

It was managed on an ElliptiGO by one person, so clearly it can be done on one.  Sounds appropriate enough to me - I'll stick with my bicycle myself as I probably couldn't afford an ElliptiGO

[bikey-mikey]

I have read these discussions with interest...

Idai, I believe I have done far more audaxing this season than anyone else in the UK, it would appear, by a factor of maybe three times as much - around 25,000 kms in actual events since 1st October. (Some riders may well have ridden more but not got it 'published', of course, e.g. Teethgrinder, HK etc)

I have a reputation for going the 'different' way - often I ride a 200 km without touching my water bottle or eating anything, though I am a sucker for a mug of latte sometimes....

I believe I am largely fat burning, using tiny amounts of glycogen as a catalyst for the fat burning process, and still have the pace to keep up with the vast majority of riders in general riding, however when we get to controls I do not need to stop or eat, so I bounce the controls and at a stroke go maybe 30 minutes ahead of people.  With possibly five controls in a 200 I might have gained up to 2.5 hours...  Certainly I can eat the occasional fruesli bar or similar to keep my glycogen topped up, but it does not take much, and my digestion seems quite happy with that approach, and of course the bars are very easy to nibble as you ride...

This type of riding demands discipline, especially on hills, where as you may have read RegT saying on the parallel MC1K thread, that he now goes more slowly on the hills, which he feels is the faster way overall (to paraphrase).

I am pretty ideally built for hill climbing, at 171 cms and 62 kgs, and there was a time when I charged up hills leaving many in my wake.  However now I am more likely to be overtaken than be the overtaker....  I try to go up hills at around 50-75% effort...   Often I ride in small groups of people for ages, all going at the same speed and all presumably making much the same effort, at around 50-75% effort, only to come to a hill, and they all suddenly go stark raving mad and charge up the hill burning their reserves in a way that is in my view uneconomical.  Of course by the top they are in many cases 'spent' and I'm not, so I ride back up to the group, and we carry on together, but I'm guessing I did it better...

Idai, I'm not saying you are wrong, and I'm not saying that I am right either, but I think I have proved that you can ride using nutritional strategies that the 'experts' say are plain wrong.  I think this is because most of the experts base their strategy around riders who are RACING, which is a different game.. 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Riding 200s is different to riding 350km for several consecutive days, as is required in 1000+km rides. Those who've ridden lots of consecutive 350km days have usually worked out what works and what doesn't work in that situation. Those who've only done that sort of thing a few times in their life probably haven't.

[bikey-mikey]

Riding 200s is different to riding 350km for several consecutive days, as is required in 1000+km rides. Those who've ridden lots of consecutive 350km days have usually worked what works and what doesn't work in that situation. Those who've only done that sort of thing a few times in their life probably haven't.

Yep I totally agree, and you will have noticed that I didn't say that I rode MC1K that way...

In fact many told me, as I sat with them at controls eating, that it was the first time they had seen me do that...

I chose to go the conventional way over the much longer distance, because I thought it was the right way, and I also enjoyed all the chats !!!

[Justin(e)]

From the ride report:

I still believe nothing is impossible. I knew at least one of us would get through the Mille Cymru Audax successfully. I truly had thought we all would make it – but in life the ending is not always perfect and is not always the one we wanted.

I really enjoyed your writing and am thoroughly impressed by your bravery.

And that is why I must keep moving on. I must keep on testing myself. It is an honour and a privilege to be able to do this. It is my way of learning who I really am. I hope it will one day allow me to be a better person – and to become more of the person I am supposed to become

I am retired audaxer, but you have neatly encapsulated all that I admire about the pastime.  Thanks for the reminder of what it means 'to boldy go' where one has not been before.

I heartily wish you success in your next venture.  On or off the machine.

[Euan Uzami]

Curiously Idai, is there actually any biological or nutritional reason for fasting, or is it literally just in order to save time?

On squash, I'm sure you could play, just not as well.
Remember carbs fuel the brain not just the muscles.
I know Muslim players do still play in the evening during Ramadan but that's only after about 12 hours max and one I've spoken to says it's a bit grim till he's got used to it but he does get used to it.
What you don't want to do play squash right after a big meal, that's equally grim if opponent's remotely good at moving you around! 3-4 hours best ime.

[HK]

So, a fully qualified and randonneuring Dr of medicine of this forum is wrong?

Shu P and all the other RAAM riders are wrong - even Strasser drinks liquid food and sleeps from time to time and he has a dedicated crew taking care of his every need and ensuring he stays awake.

Dr Gordon Wright and Peter Kean, the UKs top coaches are wrong?

Dr Mike Stroud is also wrong despite intensive study of nutritional needs in the antartic?

Yes, you can do things because you're will full. Shu is the ultimate endurance rider for being able to ride herself into the ground and beyond. I've ridden and been placed 3rd in La Simpson over Venteux, when I shouldn't have been able to get out of a chair. I've also just finished the MF against some pretty high health odds. But one thing an experienced and successful endurance cyclist doesn't do is not eat or drink.

Idai, please do your own thing, if you don't want to finish events fine. But please don't try selling what you do to others. British cycling have spent the last two decades educating riders to eat and drink. Its important that they continue to do this.

HK

[bikey-mikey]

So, a fully qualified and randonneuring Dr of medicine of this forum is wrong?

Shu P and all the other RAAM riders are wrong - even Strasser drinks liquid food and sleeps from time to time and he has a dedicated crew taking care of his every need and ensuring he stays awake.

Dr Gordon Wright and Peter Kean, the UKs top coaches are wrong?

Dr Mike Stroud is also wrong despite intensive study of nutritional needs in the antartic?

Yes, you can do things because you're will full. Shu is the ultimate endurance rider for being able to ride herself into the ground and beyond. I've ridden and been placed 3rd in La Simpson over Venteux, when I shouldn't have been able to get out of a chair. I've also just finished the MF against some pretty high health odds. But one thing an experienced and successful endurance cyclist doesn't do is not eat or drink.

Idai, please do your own thing, if you don't want to finish events fine. But please don't try selling what you do to others. British cycling have spent the last two decades educating riders to eat and drink. Its important that they continue to do this.

HK

+1

What I do on 200s is not relevant to multi day endurance events

[Wobbly]

So, a fully qualified and randonneuring Dr of medicine of this forum is wrong?
-snip-

I think your message comes across a little combative HK which I'm sure you didn't intend.

People are unique and Idai clearly has exceptional levels of strength, fitness and will power. It may also be that he was gifted a genetically superior physiology which genuinely can metabolise fat at a greater rate than most of us. But I have yet to come across any literature which specifically deals with the effects of complete fasting during extended periods of moderate to extreme exercise.

Apart from my concern at Idai's approach making hard events Much Harder for him, I am genuinely worried that others might be tempted to follow suit. There was once a belief amongst professional riders that "driest is fastest" which thankfully has been discredited and they now hydrate properly. People should not start to think that saving time by never eating is the way to go.

[chrisbainbridge]

I  think that this has become a bit unfair.  Idai was planning to eat, just every 24 hours.  The evidence for fat burning preferentially over carbs in endurance events is beginning to emerge at least partially because of its higher energy density.  I suspect that you can train yourself to use any energy source you like. 

The water debate is an interesting one.  We have "known" for many years that you should drink 6 pints of water a day and that as soon as you pee changes colour you are dehydrated and your performance will suffer.  The truth from good quality research is that you do not need 6 pints a day and that performance really doesn't drop until really quite severe dehydration has occurred.

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Eur J Appl Physiol. 2013 Dec;113(12):3011-20. doi: 10.1007/s00421-013-2730-8. Epub 2013 Oct 2.

Half-marathon running performance is not improved by a rate of fluid intake above that dictated by thirst sensation in trained distance runners.

Dion T1, Savoie FA, Asselin A, Gariepy C, Goulet ED.



Author information



Abstract

PURPOSE:

It has been demonstrated that exercise-induced dehydration (EID) does not impair, and ad libitum drinking optimizes, cycling time-trial (TT) performance. However, the idea that EID ≥ 2 % bodyweight (BW) impairs endurance performance is well ingrained. No study has tested the impact of EID upon running TT performance. We compared the effects of thirst-driven (TD) vs. programmed fluid intake (PFI) aimed at maintaining EID-associated BW loss <2 % on half-marathon performance.

METHODS:

Ten trained distance runners underwent, in a randomized, crossover fashion, two, 21.1 km running TTs on a treadmill (30 °C, 42 % relative humidity) while facing a wind speed matching running speed and drinking water (1) according to thirst sensation (TD) or (2) to maintain BW loss <2 % of their pre-exercise BW (PFI), as recommended by the American College of Sports Medicine.

RESULTS:

Despite that PFI significantly reduced EID from 3.1 ± 0.6 (TD) to 1.3 ± 0.7 % BW (PFI), mean rectal temperature from 39.4 ± 0.4 to 39.1 ± 0.3 °C, mean body temperature from 38.1 ± 0.4 to 37.7 ± 0.2 °C and mean heart rate from 175 ± 9 to 171 ± 8 bpm, neither half-marathon time (TD 89.8 ± 7.7; PFI 89.6 ± 7.7 min) nor running pace (TD 4.3 ± 0.4; PFI 4.2 ± 0.4 min/km) differed significantly between trials.

CONCLUSION:

Albeit providing trivial cardiovascular and thermoregulatory advantages, in trained distance runners, PFI (1,380 ± 320 mL/h) offers no performance benefits over TD fluid intake (384 ± 180 mL/h) during a half-marathon raced under warm conditions

[Cycling Daddy]

I can not help noting that compared to many of you folks a half marathon is a trivial output. 
In my limited experience and understanding if you dehydrate seriously you can die...it happens.  I have only once dehydrated seriously the worst feature was that I became somewhat confused so did not know how to get myself out of the jam I was in.  I managed to avoid...just... exiting the event on a stretcher with blue lights and so on. 

[hellymedic]

A half-marathon bears little physiological resemblance to an Audax event. A half-marathon would be paced to use just about all the runner's reserves in around 90 minutes. No Audax is complete within that timeframe.
Audax IMO is getting into a moderately high output steady state; flat out for 90 minutes would be a disaster for longer endurance!
A half-marathon is not trivial but it's not Audax.

[chrisbainbridge]

I was not suggesting that an audax is similar to a marathon. I would certainly think that audax is carried out at a significantly lower power output and lower average heart rate than a marathon.  The point of the post was that current beliefs by both coaches and dieticians are almost certainly wrong and that drinking when thirsty is just as good as drinking to order.

We are currently seeing a similar scientific volte face wrt fat in the diet.  The influence of the high carbohydrate diet on decreasing satiety, increasing insulin and probably causing at least part of the obesity epidemic is becoming very much clearer.

There are numerous people who carry out physical work whilst fasting and the middle ages diet for a farm labourer or even soldier would have been very similar to Idai's one meal per day plans.  The Inuit for example will eat almost no carbohydrate in the winter, I believe, existing on stored meat and fat for their food.

I look forward to hearing more about Idais ideas and see nothing inherently @wrong@ in them.

[Bugloss]

For me the key to the Audax treasure chest of happy long distance delights is - pace, rest and fuel.

Not getting lost helps too, but I haven't managed to get that one sorted out yet   

Good luck to you Idai, you seem very determined and maybe just a little bit mad  , but I can't help thinking that you put yourself in a potentially very serious situation with the caffein pills, no rest and no fuel.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Insulin response during exercise is quite different to insulin response at rest.