My ElliptiGO Ride at Mille Cymru 2014.

[EGO-Maniac]

From the ride report:

I still believe nothing is impossible. I knew at least one of us would get through the Mille Cymru Audax successfully. I truly had thought we all would make it – but in life the ending is not always perfect and is not always the one we wanted.

I really enjoyed your writing and am thoroughly impressed by your bravery.

And that is why I must keep moving on. I must keep on testing myself. It is an honour and a privilege to be able to do this. It is my way of learning who I really am. I hope it will one day allow me to be a better person – and to become more of the person I am supposed to become

I am retired audaxer, but you have neatly encapsulated all that I admire about the pastime.  Thanks for the reminder of what it means 'to boldy go' where one has not been before.

I heartily wish you success in your next venture.  On or off the machine.

Thanks Justin(e). I think you hit the nail on the head for me too in that summary. We get involved in these things for many reasons - but one of the most important ones is to entertain ourselves - and our peers - by dreaming big. I wish you all the best as well.

Idai

[Millepete]

So, a fully qualified and randonneuring Dr of medicine of this forum is wrong?
-snip-

I think your message comes across a little combative HK which I'm sure you didn't intend.

People are unique and Idai clearly has exceptional levels of strength, fitness and will power. It may also be that he was gifted a genetically superior physiology which genuinely can metabolise fat at a greater rate than most of us. But I have yet to come across any literature which specifically deals with the effects of complete fasting during extended periods of moderate to extreme exercise.

Apart from my concern at Idai's approach making hard events Much Harder for him, I am genuinely worried that others might be tempted to follow suit.

I read Idai's account with interest as he is obviously a very determined guy with an athletic ability that would be the envy of many of us.
He also seems to relish a challenge.
Finishing LEL on an ElliptiGo was clearly not enough for him and he wanted to push himself to the limit.
MC1K was always going to be extremely tough and he knew it.
He had a strategy to try to make up for his lack of speed in the hills by reducing/removing any stationary periods to a minimum in order to try to stay within the time limits.
His fasting technique is something he has been working on for a long time so I accept his analysis that it was the right approach for him.

However I don't agree that he is advocating any of us to try it any more than he thinks we should all be riding ElliptiGo's
He ran out of time on MC1K because he wasn't fast enough not because of fasting.

OK he has a unique approach to long distance riding but I am very disappointed that he has been given such a tough time on this forum by some people I also hold in high regard.
Audax has room for all of us to enjoy our pastime any way we want.
 (rant over ) 

[EGO-Maniac]

Curiously Idai, is there actually any biological or nutritional reason for fasting, or is it literally just in order to save time?

Hi Ben,

There are biological and nutritional reasons for fasting. It has been proven in a number of human and animal studies to be a useful practice for maintaining good health and a fuller lifespan. In fact, it has been said the only proven and currently known way to extend the lifespan of all living organisms "is to put restrictions on the amount of calories they take in - a reduction of calories, but without starvation". What that refers to is controlled calorie restrictions which cause our genes to be expressed in a different way - meaning our bodies behave differently as a result. These differences in genetic expression improve our longer term health outcomes and our longevity. This has been shown to be the case from amoeba's to rats to human beings. There are endless well conducted studies now available freely on the internet about Intermittent Fasting and longevity, cancer reduction, etc. I'll leave it to you to search the internet for that information, if it's of interest to you.

Regarding my riding an ElliptiGO bike through the Wales 1000k, the only reason for fasting was to save time...

Idai

[EGO-Maniac]

I received a few private messages overnight and one in particular (from one of the top 5 quickest finishers in the Mille Cymru last weekend) was particularly useful for me, because he came out and simply said it like he saw it. And it makes sense to me what he said. I've copied and pasted it below:

Just read your report. Looks like you never got enough sleep in the few weeks or days before the ride. I've done 3 days and nights on just a few 10 minute naps but if you get behind on your sleep, then even getting through one night can be impossible. I always thought that sleep would be the ultimate decider for your ride. From your report, you were too far behind with sleep before you started the ride and having been in your position more times than I can remember, there's nothing you could have done. The 10 miles extra was a hefty setback but not the be all end all. I reckon you'd have done it if you started with a lower sleep debt.

That's quite insightful for me, because although he was not aware of it, I am a guy who gets by on 4-5 hours sleep, and my best night's sleep was 7.5 hours (on the night before the event - largely because I wasn't at home). This is an obviously useful change I can implement to potentially tackle my repeat issues with sleep deprivation on long rides.

It also points out something which I think we can all learn from. Most of the 'gems of information' we'll get about long distance cycling will come from the riders themselves - not from the likes of British Cycling and any sponsored online newsletters they send. I'm sure British Cycling is great for advice on maintaining your chain, or keeping your bike good in the winter - but not for riding 1000k on an ElliptiGO (or on anything else, for that matter). What they do compared to Audax is as different as the 100m sprint and an ultramarathon.

Reading some of the earlier interactions here from overnight - and seeing some of the messages I get privately (and "Millepete" refers to it in his most recent message, above) - there's an interesting phenomenon going on amongst many of us here, which I had seen starkly demonstrated in Wales when I was riding through last weekend.

I'll explain:

As I rode through the quiet mountain-tops of Wales I had noticed a repeated behaviour in all the sheep and cattle I passed, which was quite alarming because I immediately realised this happens in people as well. It's not as sinister as it sounds, bear with me  - and this basically relates to the fact that when you ride towards a bunch of sheep or cattle, especially if you're on an ElliptiGO that makes a sound they are not familiar with, they panic and dash across the road trying to disappear into the larger group on the other side of the road. The sheep do this every single time. The cattle are more reserved, but if they see one of their number start to run, they all stampede as well. They are not sure why he's running but they feel it's better to follow suit and find out later, than to make their own analysis of their individual situations.

Some of those sheep die trying to cross that road in order to blend in, because they are hit by cars.

There are many good reasons why herding animals follow this herd behaviour - and we have it in our genes as group animals ourselves. However, it is like many of our basic instincts in that it is not a particularly crucial survival skill to nurture and develop in the modern world. In fact, in modern human life 'herd mentality' is a drawback. It is behind many of the more negative aspects of human 'civilization' and is behind many of the biggest outrages which have happened (and which still take place) in modern society.

People have a tendency to behave in the manner of sheep, not because it is rationally thought out, but because it makes them feel more part of a group - more absorbed in the herd. It doesn't actually bother people like myself. I was brought up to be an individual and I bring my own children up likewise. I painstakingly explain to my children why they need to stand back from the crowd and analyse situations for themselves. I try to ensure they are not afraid to go against the herd, because I believe being individuals should be our primary role in society. Fear of standing out, of being different, of being yourself, means we lose an opportunity in life to truly become what we are meant to become or to make any difference.

I wrote about that that in my event report and I say it again. We are all on a journey towards being the people we were supposed to be. Herd mentality is just a detour and a delay on that road. I know I'm younger than many who use this forum, but even in my 40 years my life has been greatly enriched by being an individual. I wouldn't have it any other way.

So I let the herd run free, there are numerous individuals - especially in a pastime like Audax - who can make their own decisions and analyse what's in front of them. It is a great stretch to think grown up individuals will go out and 'kill themselves' trying to be like me. Only someone steeped in herd mentality would think such a thing remotely possible. We all have free will and we all have the inherent mind power to keep ourselves safe and to take calculated risks. We can all learn from each other without the need to blindly imitate. We are not sheep.

As one of my ElliptiGO buddies said in a message to me, while I was still riding in the Mille Cymru and trying to decide how to respond to my lack of pace: "Quoting Fleetwood - "You can GO your own Way..."

I think he's right.

Idai

[caerau]

There are biological and nutritional reasons for fasting. It has been proven in a number of human and animal studies to be a useful practice for maintaining good health and a fuller lifespan. In fact, it has been said the only proven and currently known way to extend the lifespan of all living organisms "is to put restrictions on the amount of calories they take in - a reduction of calories, but without starvation". What that refers to is controlled calorie restrictions which cause our genes to be expressed in a different way - meaning our bodies behave differently as a result. These differences in genetic expression improve our longer term health outcomes and our longevity. This has been shown to be the case from amoeba's to rats to human beings. There are endless well conducted studies now available freely on the internet about Intermittent Fasting and longevity, cancer reduction, etc. I'll leave it to you to search the internet for that information, if it's of interest to you.

This is largely true and scientifically demonstrated.  One of the main factors that causes cells to age, die and mutate to dangerous cell types is oxidative stress.  Probably getting too scientific here but molecular oxygen is completely unreactive with the vast majority of organic molecules because it has two unpaired electrons in what we call (as chemists, yes I am one) a high spin state - nearly all organic molecules are in a low spin (zero spin) state and this makes reaction between them possible (a phenomenon in physics called spin-forbidden).  The way your metabolic enzymes get around this is by adding an electron to oxygen via high-spin metal ions and generating oxygen in a form that *can* react with your organic molecules. I.e. sugars and fats for generating the energy that fuels your metabolic processes.  Intermediate forms of oxygen have single unpaired electrons called radicals which are phenomenally reactive, along with peroxide which is rocket-fuel.  Peroxide and radicals can leak out of this process and cause great destruction - 'oxidative stress' as it's called in cells.  In fact cells have evolved to go to a lot of trouble to quench these radicals and peroxides to reduce oxidative stress.
Of course you need some oxygen and fuel otherwise you die so it's a balancing game.  The types of experiments Idai refers to have noted greater longevity with lower fuel input as you get lower levels of oxidative stress.  However, and this is missing from the above, it comes alongside low energy output also.


The people who tend to live the longest (and this is not universal, it's a tendency and correlation does not equal causation) tend to be those who eat a little and don't do all that much exercise either.

[Euan Uzami]

Thanks Idai, you've obviously looked into it and take it seriously.
It also helps to have a general appreciation of where you are and what roads lead where, for instance if you were heading towards Carmarthen on the A40 you didn't need to get off it, you could have just stayed on there all the way to llandovery. Remember audaxes in the UK at least don't mandate you to follow the exact route, it's only a recommendation.

[Somnolent]

Audax has room for all of us to enjoy our pastime any way we want.

Yes.

[The French Tandem]

Idai,

I have read your blog and all this thread with great interest, and I want first to express my great admiration and respect for your determination during your preparation to the MC, as well as during the ride. I won't discuss the point of fasting or eating, as I don't feel qualified at all for that. However, there's something that I don't catch in your story. Let me explain my point by first talking a bit about us.

My wife Sylvie and I completed LEL 2013 on a tandem, well within the time limit, with more than 20 hours of sleep during the ride, and a big meal at each control. Our moving average was 24-25 km/h.  We are slightly older than you are, we are not professionnal athletes, I am seriously overweight and our training schedule could be qualified of erratic or lazy. Our toughest training ride before LEL was a flattish 600km. I have never been a very gifted athlete and the PE classes were the worst nightmare of my childhood.

On the other hand, you are a professionnal of fitness and training, you are definitely not overweight, as I can judge by the photos on your blog, your preparation was infinitely more serious than ours., so you should be expected to have a moving average much faster than ours! I have read somewhere on your blog that your moving average was 10 mph during MC. Okay, I understand that MC was tougher than LEL, but that's still a huge difference. For me, there are two possibilities: either the elliptigoes are highly inadequate machines for these events, or there is something else I don't catch!

Alain

[hellymedic]

I am neither athlete nor Elliptigo expert. The Elliptigo strikes me as a MASSIVE challenge, one I would never attempt as I would only fail

The Elliptigo trio showed amazing courage and tenacity achieving as much as they did.

I would never have managed the MC on a bicycle!

On a bicycle there's a saddle and often a freewheel giving some opportunity for (relative) rest.

There is no such luxury AIUI on an Elliptigo.

[teethgrinder]

Idai,

I have read your blog and all this thread with great interest, and I want first to express my great admiration and respect for your determination during your preparation to the MC, as well as during the ride. I won't discuss the point of fasting or eating, as I don't feel qualified at all for that. However, there's something that I don't catch in your story. Let me explain my point by first talking a bit about us.

My wife Sylvie and I completed LEL 2013 on a tandem, well within the time limit, with more than 20 hours of sleep during the ride, and a big meal at each control. Our moving average was 24-25 km/h.  We are slightly older than you are, we are not professionnal athletes, I am seriously overweight and our training schedule could be qualified of erratic or lazy. Our toughest training ride before LEL was a flattish 600km. I have never been a very gifted athlete and the PE classes were the worst nightmare of my childhood.

On the other hand, you are a professionnal of fitness and training, you are definitely not overweight, as I can judge by the photos on your blog, your preparation was infinitely more serious than ours., so you should be expected to have a moving average much faster than ours! I have read somewhere on your blog that your moving average was 10 mph during MC. Okay, I understand that MC was tougher than LEL, but that's still a huge difference. For me, there are two possibilities: either the elliptigoes are highly inadequate machines for these events, or there is something else I don't catch!

Alain

I had a 100 mile Elliptigo ride with Idai in Febuary. It took over 9 hours including stops. For the same effort on my bike I'd have done it in at least 7 hours and 6 hours doesn't seem unlikely. Though I'm not an experienced elliptigo rider, so for the same level of effort and fitness I could have probably got the time down if I got used to riding an elliptigo but I doubt it would be more than half an hour without getting any fitter.

Also, I had a bit of tailwind on the ride up to the start and was averaging 20mph for the first 50 miles, where I stopped for lunch.
On the ride I was averaging 14.6mph IIRC for the first 100 miles but with no tailwind and was at the front end of the field of riders.

[Hummers]

I am greatly concerned that no one has pointed out the benefits of BEER on an Audax?

For years, I found this a terrible drain of my resources however in latter years, I have found it (along with the company of my Mentor, Mr Hanna), an invaluable resource and even 'incenterpiece' on even the hardest rides.

Have you considered this Idai?

H

[teethgrinder]

I have used BEER and it has worked very well for me. I tend to go for a shandy on a hot day.
I did, in fact, use BEER in the MC1K and I do think that it was helpful.
I also had a snifter of Jack Daniels on the first night.

[mattc]

I was not suggesting that an audax is similar to a marathon. I would certainly think that audax is carried out at a significantly lower power output and lower average heart rate than a marathon.  The point of the post was that current beliefs by both coaches and dieticians are almost certainly wrong and that drinking when thirsty is just as good as drinking to order.

We are currently seeing a similar scientific volte face wrt fat in the diet.  The influence of the high carbohydrate diet on decreasing satiety, increasing insulin and probably causing at least part of the obesity epidemic is becoming very much clearer.

There are numerous people who carry out physical work whilst fasting and the middle ages diet for a farm labourer or even soldier would have been very similar to Idai's one meal per day plans.  The Inuit for example will eat almost no carbohydrate in the winter, I believe, existing on stored meat and fat for their food.

I look forward to hearing more about Idais ideas and see nothing inherently @wrong@ in them.

Yup.

Just in my lifetime there have been several massive reversals in dietary advice and sports science. I foresee several more to come, and MAYBE even the audax community will change its party line on a few issues at some stage ;-)

So I think that we still have a lot to discover about fasting and its effects on exercise. And Idai has done more work in this area than 90% of opinionated posters on this thread.

But I still don't think he chose the fastest way round this event for him.

(My gut instinct is that fasting in training followed by very low GI grazing on the ride might be best.)

[caerau]

I am greatly concerned that no one has pointed out the benefits of BEER on an Audax?

For years, I found this a terrible drain of my resources however in latter years, I have found it (along with the company of my Mentor, Mr Hanna), an invaluable resource and even 'incenterpiece' on even the hardest rides.

Have you considered this Idai?

H

I wish you'd been around on the Monmouthshire Meander last year - I got harangued by a Cardiff Ajax rider (almost to the point of me telling him to eft off) for having a WHOLE 330 ml bottle of Stella at the Monmouth control. 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Why? Did he want you to share it with him?

[Bugloss]

Yes, BEER!!

I was most appreciative of the well stocked fridge in the club house at the Tournai arrivée last month. Good job I had my deaf ear turned towards the bar and I couldn't hear the repeated cries of doucement, DOUCEMENT !!! from the ladies behind it as 4 went down the hatch in quick succession   

I think I may experiment with beer a little more next week too.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

There's a couple of points in this thread that interest me. 

The first is the impact of hills.  I've just finished a trip to the Alps where I've been averaging 4000m ascent a day, and I've struggled to do the hardest bits on empty (trying to climb 9% gradients at 2600m was quite hard).  So I do wonder if this is a factor - where you are forced into high heart rates / power outputs purely to make progress.

The second, having ridden with Zigzag, whose dietary habits are different from mine (as we both had a very enjoyable and successful trip it would take a wise person that me to suggest who has the best diet), is the extent to which our dietary habits on long distance rides are 'learned', i.e. with experience we come up with a formula we feel works best for us.  That doesn't mean that a different approach might lead to an improvement, however, its also likely that whilst making the changes there might be some loss of performance whilst we get used to a different approach (as I did on the Galibier when adjusting my approach more toward's Zigzag's.)

[hellymedic]

Hills need maximum power output, which usually means firing all metabolic channels simultaneously. (Anaerobic carb + aerobic carb + fat)

[chrisbainbridge]

Hills only need maximum power if you power up them.  There is absolutely nothing to stop you doing a hill at 'normal' power, just slower.  Mikey has espoused such a philosophy further up this thread and shown how well it works.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

That approach works well if you are lightweight. If you are heavy, climbing needs more power. Climbing in bottom gear takes extra time. In a hilly event where the majority of your time is spent going uphill, this is important.

[jamesld8]

Yes, BEER!!

I was most appreciative of the well stocked fridge in the club house at the Tournai arrivée last month. Good job I had my deaf ear turned towards the bar and I couldn't hear the repeated cries of doucement, DOUCEMENT !!! from the ladies behind it as 4 went down the hatch in quick succession   

I think I may experiment with beer a little more next week too.

On BCM several pints Shandy on last day were marvellous  and good morale boosters as well---1 @ Knighton. 1 @ Weobley and a final and incredibly welcome one @ Redbrook as I`d run out of bottles 30 min previously. Last pint with an energy gel aperitif gave me a huge energy lift to sail me down the stretch to Chepstow 

[Bugloss]

I read somewhere, that beer is good for recovery as it contains B12. So next weeks French strategy is:

1. Pitch tent and blow up airbed.
2. Have shower, quick sharp.
4. Eat
5. Drink beer and go to bed.

That might work to send me to sleep and help me recover quicker, a bit of a double edged sword really.

[Exit Stage Left]

That approach works well if you are lightweight. If you are heavy, climbing needs more power. Climbing in bottom gear takes extra time. In a hilly event where the majority of your time is spent going uphill, this is important.

The initial limiting factor is the amount of fuel in the bloodstream, then the rate at which it is being replaced, and the waste products cleared. For me the main limiting factor is how fast I can get rid of the heat produced. Fat is a good insulator, and the relationship between mass, which is a cube function, and surface area, a square function, works against big riders. On the flat, the draught effect of the passing air cools the body, so an output of 400 watts is sustainable. The lower speeds uphill don't allow that.
Watch the Tour riders on hot stages pouring litres of water on themselves up climbs. Cooling is the wall they hit first.

On the recent Irish ride I saw a small wheel with a Dura-Ace hub break its flanges, so I'm impressed that the Elliptigo held together. I'd see it more as a machine-proving exercise. One did get round after all.

[caerau]

That approach works well if you are lightweight. If you are heavy, climbing needs more power. Climbing in bottom gear takes extra time. In a hilly event where the majority of your time is spent going uphill, this is important.

Indeed. If I was to - say - ease off on some of the climbs in Wales I would fall off.

If you're lightweight try an experiment - strap 40kg to your back and try and ride up your nearest steep hill if you want to see what it's like for me
I wish I could do that experiment the other way around 

[caerau]

Why? Did he want you to share it with him?

He was close to having it 'shared'     No he was giving me a big lecture on how it was going to reduce my reactions, lower my performance etc.  I just said that I didn't think 1 half pint was going to make much difference and that I'd eat and drink what I chose myself thank you very much.