Tubeless for Dummies

[Ben T]

unless you connect the pump with the valve at the bottom which you wouldn't,

And even if you did the valve is at the top of the bottom, and the sealant will have pooled to the bottom of the bottom.

Yes that's true actually. This was based on empirical observation, but thinking about it it was probably just the initial rush of air splashing the pool of liquid. There wouldn't be any significant quantity come out.

[rafletcher]

I recently had a very significant visitation on mine

So did I, yesterday - but mine didn't seal    Mind you there was an 8mm sabre shaped piece of metal swarf right through the carcass!  Luckily I was <200m from starting out. In this instance I just intubated the tyre (I'm on hols at a friends place in France) and I'll sort it properly when I get home.

What happens then? Does the tube get cemented to the inside of the tyre with residual fluid?

Quite possibly! I haven't had a chance to pull the wheel yet. I'll let you know what the outcome was when I do 

EDIT:  No, it doesn't stick to the tyre, though why not I've no idea, I assumed the tight fit would mimic a puncture hole. Hmmm. 

[bikey-mikey]

Remember that mine was dry after about three months and maybe 8,000 kms and I reset/repump to pressure after every ride, so lots and lots and lots of very tiny losses, and probably a fair few holes I never knew I had that had invisibly sealed as well, which is another way you lose fluid....

I always pump up with the valve at the top, because it's easier to reach, but I always forget to put the valve there when I park the bike in its stand, so when I come to check pressure in the morning I have a completely random valve position, and move the valve to the top moments before I pump, so the area near the valve may well be still wet, and that rather daft failure on my part has probably also got something to do with it....

Good discussion though... 

[zigzag]

i wonder how much of actual rubber bits remain in the tyre when the liquid evaporates? say if i pour in 30ml of "milk", what's the amount of solid content in it? does it turn into sticky goo?
i've used a conti revo sealant in latex inner tubes - just wondering if i can reuse them with different tyres, and if i flatten them would the insides glue together.

[Ningishzidda]

I was talking to a chap from a company who make the tyre sealant canisters you get with some modern ‘eco’ cars.
He told me the sealant quality is from using carrot fibre. The small microscopic strands clog up the hole and the rubber matrix binds it all together.

I haven’t looked at carrot cake again in the same light.

Or was it parsnips ??

[Ben T]

I was talking to a chap from a company who make the tyre sealant canisters you get with some modern ‘eco’ cars.
He told me the sealant quality is from using carrot fibre. The small microscopic strands clog up the hole and the rubber matrix binds it all together.

I haven’t looked at carrot cake again in the same light.

Or was it parsnips ??

What  so you mean you haven't heard of the cyclist who went in a caff, ate too much carrot cake, then went to the bog and was never seen again?!

[Frank9755]

i wonder how much of actual rubber bits remain in the tyre when the liquid evaporates? say if i pour in 30ml of "milk", what's the amount of solid content in it? does it turn into sticky goo?
i've used a conti revo sealant in latex inner tubes - just wondering if i can reuse them with different tyres, and if i flatten them would the insides glue together.

I did come across something on this the other day.  CAn't re-find it now though.  Somebody had weighed new tyres and then re-weighed them after sealant had dried inside them.  It was something like 40g of residue that was left afterwards. 

(I can't remember if they had been ridden in that time, as there would have been some loss of grammes of tread if they had)

[toontra]

Does this thread belong in the "2015 Tommy Godwin Record Attempt" still?  Seems it would be better off in the Knowledge section.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Agree

[rafletcher]

i wonder how much of actual rubber bits remain in the tyre when the liquid evaporates? say if i pour in 30ml of "milk", what's the amount of solid content in it? does it turn into sticky goo?
i've used a conti revo sealant in latex inner tubes - just wondering if i can reuse them with different tyres, and if i flatten them would the insides glue together.

It goes into a stringy elastic solid (in my case -Shwalbe Doc Blue)

[vorsprung]

I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

[PaulF]

A combination of a & e should sort it out.

[Ningishzidda]

A combination of a & e should sort it out.

If he wants to go to A & E, it can be arranged,,, 

[rafletcher]

I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

My technique is to shake the wheel about vigorously after first inflation to splash the sealant about. This audibly worked when I fitted a new tyre this weekend. I could hear the air escaping from the bead, but turning the wheel so that was at the low point then shaking it stopped the leak. Usually a new tyre takes 2-3 inflations at least to start holding pressure reasonably IME.

[GrahamG]

I did same as rafletcher - only needed on first fitting, and also needed to tighten up the valves a bit to get a better seal where the rubber bung sits against the tape.

[Ben T]

I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

f) don't be a cheapskate and get some actual tubeless-specific rims rather than a conversion kit

[vorsprung]

f) don't be a cheapskate and get some actual tubeless-specific rims rather than a conversion kit

I couldn't find any evidence that tubeless specific rims (Stan's Alpha 340/400/Iron Cross, Pancenti SL23 etc) were any better than any "wide" 23mm external design

Another thing is that the Son H+ is available in 36h and the Stan's are not.  Son H+ Archetypes are heavier too and that's a good thing, they should be stronger and wear out slower

[Morat]

I was getting my head around this topic when I saw on rant.cc that Hunt have released a range of tubeless ready (to the extent of being supplied with tubeless Schwalbe One's pre-installed) wheels which come with hookless rims.
Now I have to start again

linkeh http://road.cc/content/tech-news/169286-hunt-launches-three-new-wheelsets

Do you reckon the 4 season ones could cope with my generous frame? They do look rather lovely for the price....

[mrcharly-YHT]

Every time a non-racer rides on reduced spoke-count wheels, the ghost of Sheldon Brown kills a ghost-kitten, trufax

I don't see a point in going under 32 spokes for a general purpose, all weathers wheel. You gain very little and if just one spoke breaks, then the wheel might pringle. Less likely to happen with the CF rims though.

[bikenrrd]

For someone like me, who weighs 63 to 64kg, depending on time of year and beer consumption (always more in the winter), a 32 spoke *modern* wheel is massively overbuilt.

20 spokes front, 24 spokes rear on robust rims, or 24 front, 28 rear on lightweight rims is more than enough for us lightweights.

[Biggsy]

I only agree if modern means straight-pull or super-thick spokes.  64kg (10 stone) is not all that unusual, and broken spokes and buckled wheels aren't unusual enough with 32 spokes to make me think it's a good idea to have even fewer.  Personally, I want my wheels to be well overbuilt, so I specced 36 spokes (rear) when I was 10.5 stone.  The extra few spokes are insurance - very cheap insurance.  But of course the insurance is optional!  Each to his own.

[sojournermike]

I currently weigh 3(ahem) stone more than 10.5 stone and have wheels with 32 spokes, 24F 28R and one set of 20F 24R (which are on 31mm rims and I still think are underbuilt). If the wheels last long enough my eight will be some 1.5+ stone lower.

I built the 32 spoke wheels, but interestingly the builders of the other wheels all suggest a weight limit that is heavier than me. However, I still feel they're a bit light except when they've got strong and deep rims.

Mike

[bikenrrd]

I only agree if modern means straight-pull or super-thick spokes.

My winter / long distance wheels are straight pull built with DT Swiss Aerocomp (cheaper DT Swiss version of CX-Ray).
20 hold front, 24 hole rear, 23mm wide rim and tubeless.

In over 20 years of cycling, I've never broken a spoke! (This means one will snap on the ride to work tomorrow, doesn't it).

[Ningishzidda]

Since 1965, I was spoke breakless until the fiasco of 2005/6.

[Morat]

Every time a non-racer rides on reduced spoke-count wheels, the ghost of Sheldon Brown kills a ghost-kitten, trufax

I don't see a point in going under 32 spokes for a general purpose, all weathers wheel. You gain very little and if just one spoke breaks, then the wheel might pringle. Less likely to happen with the CF rims though.

I know what you mean. My preference would be for good ole 36 spoke three cross, but they seem to be reserved for cheap mountain bikes and unsupported continental crossings