Tubeless for Dummies

[vorsprung]

Ok latest report, I have now been running 25mm Hutchinson Intensive since January.  In the past 3 months I have done a few 200km rides and lots of trips to the pub with no problems.  I had one "it's a puncture...ha it's fixed itself", the tyres are a bit narrow for 25mm and not particularly fast but hey ho

However, at the weekend when messing about with my new lights, riding up and down the road near my house I hit a bit of flinty stuff

I didn't notice at the time but overnight the tyre went down.  I found the sharp and removed it.  I reinflated with a co2.  Since then the tyre has been unreliable

It will hold 80psi+ overnight but as soon as I ride on it the leak around the hole reopens and all the air gradually (in a few minutes) escapes with dribbles of sealant

The hole doesn't look big to me (less than 2mm) but it must be too large for the sealant.  I am going to try and patch it with a inner tube patch on the inside and superglue on the outside and see how I get on.  A proper "tubeless external repair kit" is on order

[sojournermike]

I don't know what sealant you've got, but there seems to be a view not to use CO2 with Stans. Caffè Latex is supposed to be OK with CO2, and of course it may not relate to that at all.

Mike

[Andrew Br]

A new Schwalbe S One has arrived and I've fitted it.
It went on OK initially (still had to use the big lever) but I couldn't get it to seat with either the track pump or CO₂.
Dribbling washing up liquid around both beads and some vigorous pumping got it inflated very quickly and there was some impressive "popping" as the beads seated. I pumped the tyre to the maximum recommended 80psi.
Next morning it was down to 40psi.
I unseated one of the beads, poured in some sealant (not enough but all that I had left) and tried pumping up again. No joy but a shot of CO₂ sorted the bead out and I was able to inflate the tyre, again to 80psi. That was Saturday.
Today, Monday, the tyre was at 60psi.
I've had a brief ride but I can't come to any conclusions about the tyre since the Disco felt really strange after riding the Rohloff bike for most of this year. Plus the front tyre was only at 40 psi ................

More impressions to follow but I'm reasonably optimistic.

[Frank9755]

The hole doesn't look big to me (less than 2mm) but it must be too large for the sealant.  I am going to try and patch it with a inner tube patch on the inside and superglue on the outside and see how I get on.  A proper "tubeless external repair kit" is on order

I've found that a patch on the inside works fine. 

[vorsprung]

I am using Stans with Co2  Previously this has worked fine so I don't think it's that

Yesterday the sealant was exhausted.  Presumably the repeated leaking has used it all up.  Getting back the 4km from the station required 2x Co2 cartridges and a lot of stopping

Now the tyre has a patch on the inside and the external hole is filled with arildite.  I gave it another shot of Stans sealant.   It's all working fine again

This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

I guess removing the sharp was a mistake

[zigzag]

when i got tubeless-ready wheels i realised what it feels like when people complain about ba$tard rim/tyre combinations (still run regular tyres with inner tubes). i need two tyre levers and praying that they don't break when mounting the tyres. my lesson is that for non-tubeless tyres it's best to stick to using non-tubeless rims.

[Karla]

I had a friend staying over last week.  He'd tried a 'ghetto tubeless' setup on his road bike, then crit raced it. 

The tyre rolled off on a hairpin.  My friend looked rather bruised and bloodied.

Quelle surprise.

[Frank9755]

This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

Some rim / tyre combinations are harder to put on than others - whether tubeless or not.  I've only done Schwalbe One / Stan's Alpha rims and they are no harder than the average clincher.  I've had to do one roadside repair in the last year and got the tyre back on with my fingers.

[chrisbainbridge]

This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

I have had 3 sets of tubeless wheels over the last few years, reasonable DT Swiss on a Giant bike, very cheap on a BMC, new rim with my dynamo and now a set of carbon rims hand built.
They have all been no harder to fit than the previous clinchers. 

This forum would be fairly scathing of people who tried to run 10 speed shifter with 9 speed cassettes or similar so why complain when your standard clincher rim does not work properly with your tubeless tyre.  Yes it may with fudging work but it is not properly designed to work together and it will fail more often and need harder work.
Edited!

[jsabine]

This forum would be fairly scathing of people who tried to run 10 speed mechs with 9 speed cassettes

Except that the indexing comes from the shifter, not the mech, so a 10-speed mech and 9-speed cassette (or indeed 10-speed cassette and 9-speed mech) will generally work just fine.

(As ever, one of the edge cases is where you want to use 10-speed Shimano road shifters and an MTB mech, where you *must* use a 9-speed or earlier mech, because the cable pull ratio changed for 10-speed MTB derailleurs.)



(Apologies for smart-arsedness, but there are *plenty* of things that work just fine even though they're a bit outside the manufacturers' published parameters - it's just that your example was a particularly easy target. Back on topic, I've found 28mm Schwalbe Ones to be happy on Open Pros, though admittedly I've not done much mileage on them yet.)

[Biggsy]

Now my turn to be a smartarse and off topic.    .........

Except that the indexing comes from the shifter, not the mech, so a 10-speed mech and 9-speed cassette (or indeed 10-speed cassette and 9-speed mech) will generally work just fine.

(As ever, one of the edge cases is where you want to use 10-speed Shimano road shifters and an MTB mech, where you *must* use a 9-speed or earlier mech, because the cable pull ratio changed for 10-speed MTB derailleurs.)

Because of cases like that, ie. differences of cable pull ratio, I wince when people say indexing doesn't come from the mech.  We should say that indexing depends on the combination of three things: the shifter, the mech geometry, and the sprocket spacing.  Campag has used more than one cable pull ratio even for the same speed, although the differences in some cases are slight enough to fudge.

[jsabine]

True. Pedant.


(Yes, I'm using that as a term of abuse because I know I was wrong - or at least not completely right ... But the point about 'non-recommended' options working perfectly in the right combinations stands.)

[Biggsy]

... But the point about 'non-recommended' options working perfectly in the right combinations stands.)

Yes and it's a good point.  Cycling and bike building would be duller experiences if we never used combinations that we're not supposed to, and much of The Knowledge is about working out what does and doesn't *really* work together.

[chrisbainbridge]

But we don't say that derailleurs you won't use derailleurs because mixing campognolo and Shimano might give you problems 50 mile from home.  But tubeless tyres are supposed to fit all rims??

[vorsprung]

This does put me off tubeless somewhat.  Patching the hole is very difficult because tubeless tyres are so tight.  To remove requires multiple steel tyre levers.  To refit requires a bead jack.  I wouldn't want to attempt this at 3am in Wales.

This forum would be fairly scathing of people who tried to run 10 speed shifter with 9 speed cassettes or similar so why complain when your standard clincher rim does not work properly with your tubeless tyre.  Yes it may with fudging work but it is not properly designed to work together and it will fail more often and need harder work.

Quite, but it's straightforward to me that 10 speed stuff doesn't work with 9 speed stuff.  Maybe it isn't to some people but it is too me.

With tubeless tyres for bikes it's not as clear cut as that.  I read up on it before hand and the story was as clear as mud.  The system I have ended up with is fine but the only downside is the tyres are really difficult to get on and off.  Next set of rims will be proper tubeless shape and hopefully will be easier to get the tyres on and off.

Let me explain that a bit.  Proper tubeless shape have a flat shelved part near the rim.  This means that they work better with sealing and re-sealing after "burping".  So it's conceivable that a less tight rim/tyre bead combination will be just as effective and safe as the very tight beads on normal (but wide) rims that I am currently using

[Phil W]

Panracer make a tubeless repair kit for fixing punctures that doesn't require raking the wheel or tyre off the bike. Been around a while and work great, not that I've had punctures to fix with tubeless other than 2 on mtn bike over a 10 year period.

[zigzag]

I had a friend staying over last week.  He'd tried a 'ghetto tubeless' setup on his road bike, then crit raced it. 

The tyre rolled off on a hairpin.  My friend looked rather bruised and bloodied.

Quelle surprise.

out of interest, is the "ghetto tubeless" setup a non-tubeless rim plus a tubeless tyre on it? or neither of them tubeless?

[PeeJay]

Just an update on my latest tubeless experiment.   
When Schwalbe recently launched their marathon tubeless tyre (Marathon Supreme TL easy 35mm to be precise) .   I couldn't resist giving them a go.   I'm using them on my non tubeless mavic a319 rims on my commuter bike.   I sealed the rims with 2 wraps of Stan's yellow tape and used Stan's 29er rim strips to pack out the well of the rim to help the tyres seat.   I'm also using a scoop full of Stan's sealant in each tyre.   I was able to get both tyres on the rims easily enough without tyre levers.  The rear seemed a lot looser than the front.   The front seated and inflated with just a track pump.   The rear was much more problematic and I ended up needing both another 2 wraps of Stan's tape and the use of a ghetto pop bottle inflator to get it to seat.   I'm guessing that the rear was harder to seat just because it was a slightly looser fit on the rim.   
In use the tyres feel great,  feel nice and plush,  seem to roll really well and are noticeably quieter than the older tubed supremes,   I'm running them at 55/60psi front/rear .   So far so good!
They generally hold air fine and don't need topping up however every so often,  maybe once a week or so, I'll return to my bike to find one of the tyres has - in the space of a few hours - lost most of its air and is down to 20psi ish.   This is a right PITA  as it mostly seems to happen while my bike is parked at work so I have to re inflate with my mini pump.   Once inflated again it will be fine for another week or so.   

I'm guessing it's losing air from the tyre seat as there's no evidence of any sealant anywhere,  and I'm guessing that this is the price to pay for using non tubeless rims??

Now seriously thinking of some tubeless rims,  but which ones?  Stan's Grails or Velocity Ailerons are the first choice bit I'm also wondering if a 29er MTB rim like Stan's Crest would be an option as I quite like the low profile look,  but I don't know if they will cope with 60psi ?

Anyone got any experience of any of these rims?  And thoughts on using an MTB rim with the 35mm marathon tubeless?

[Sea of vapours]

I've been using Stan's Grail rims for a year, with Hutchinson Sector 28 tyres. Minimal loss of air - well, my idea of minimal anyway, since I pump them up before each ride and it varies from 1-2 psi 'needed' after a day, to 5 psi after 4-5 days. That's with pressures at 70 & 80 psi, front/rear. All four tyres I've fitted on the Grails have gone on without levers (and I'm far from expert, having only been cycling 18 months) and all four have inflated first time with a track pump.

So, I have no comparators, but the Grails, with those tyres, seem to work very well in all respects.

[vorsprung]

Panracer make a tubeless repair kit for fixing punctures that doesn't require raking the wheel or tyre off the bike. Been around a while and work great, not that I've had punctures to fix with tubeless other than 2 on mtn bike over a 10 year period.

I now have one of these kits, it's Weldite branded

[PeeJay]

I've been using Stan's Grail rims for a year, with Hutchinson Sector 28 tyres. Minimal loss of air - well, my idea of minimal anyway, since I pump them up before each ride and it varies from 1-2 psi 'needed' after a day, to 5 psi after 4-5 days. That's with pressures at 70 & 80 psi, front/rear. All four tyres I've fitted on the Grails have gone on without levers (and I'm far from expert, having only been cycling 18 months) and all four have inflated first time with a track pump.

So, I have no comparators, but the Grails, with those tyres, seem to work very well in all respects.

Thanks,   the grails are certainly the front runners at the mo.   I'm using Stan's rims (alpha 340) on another bike and have had no issues with those.   

[Karla]

I had a friend staying over last week.  He'd tried a 'ghetto tubeless' setup on his road bike, then crit raced it. 

The tyre rolled off on a hairpin.  My friend looked rather bruised and bloodied.

Quelle surprise.

out of interest, is the "ghetto tubeless" setup a non-tubeless rim plus a tubeless tyre on it? or neither of them tubeless?

A non-tubeless tyre (Conti GP4000S) on a rim that might or might not have been tubeless, I'm not sure.  I think the comment was something along the lines of "It's not officially tubeless but it's designed to be used like this." 

Hmmm, I'll take that one with a very big pinch of salt - and would that be the same salt he's rubbing in his wounds?

[zigzag]

was he racing for the Darwin's trophy?.. some people like to learn the hard way

[Frank9755]

I hope he didn't bring half a dozen people down behind him!

[tedshred]

I am hoping to embark on the tubeless adventure when my new wheels arrive next week.

The only snag appears to be sourcing some tyres.  I am having real trouble finding some Schwalbe Pro One 25mm tyres.

Any suggestions welcome (I would like to go with the Schwalbe as I like the clincher version).