Author Topic: Tubeless for Dummies (Read 195451 times)

rafletcher · « **Reply #750 on:** 09 August, 2018, 07:56:15 pm »

Ta, I’ve probably overtightened mine. I have a small pair of pliers in my toolkit, but would rather not. I’ll back off the collars next time. Cheers.

Ben T · « **Reply #751 on:** 29 August, 2018, 02:32:20 pm »

Quote from: Phil W on 17 June, 2018, 08:05:48 pm

Experience of Mavic UST road tubeless.

I recently built some new wheels with Mavic Open Pro UST road rims.

Verdict.

They sell a special UST rim tape that stretches over rim and it not stuck down like the rest of road tubeless rim tape. I never got this to sit properly in the rim and it made trying to get the UST tyres on a bastard. It would not seal. I gave up with the rim tape after swearing a lot and skinning my thumbs trying to get tyres on.

Used a spare roll of Stans 21mm tape I had. Enough for both rims. The Stans rim tape was easy to apply to the rims with an internal diameter of 19c. The UST tyres now went on easily just using hands. The tyres inflated easily first time without soapy water or sealant, with just the pump I carry on bike. I repeated 7 times to check it was not a fluke. They seem to lock in place at about 20 psi. The recommended pressure on these width rims is only 54 psi for 28mm rubber, lower for 30mm etc. They roll nice and smooth and are comfy at these pressures. I added sealant later. The tyres are holding their original pressures after 48 hours.

So big thumbs up to UST road tyres and rims. Big thumbs down to their UST rim tape.

hi Phil, curious about this as I am having some sealing issues with those same rims.
Mine has got some rim 'tape' installed which is like rubber but it seems to overlap near the valve rather than be a single continuous strip - is that what yours was like?

And when you put the stans tape on did you have a rim 'strip' underneath the tape, or don't you need that? The stans website seems to allude that you do but not sure whether it's rim-dependent.
And did you end up using mavic valves or stans valves?

vorsprung · « **Reply #752 on:** 30 August, 2018, 01:39:27 pm »

Quote from: Ben T on 29 August, 2018, 02:32:20 pm

Quote from: Phil W on 17 June, 2018, 08:05:48 pm
Experience of Mavic UST road tubeless.

I recently built some new wheels with Mavic Open Pro UST road rims.

Verdict.

They sell a special UST rim tape that stretches over rim and it not stuck down like the rest of road tubeless rim tape. I never got this to sit properly in the rim and it made trying to get the UST tyres on a bastard. It would not seal. I gave up with the rim tape after swearing a lot and skinning my thumbs trying to get tyres on.

Used a spare roll of Stans 21mm tape I had. Enough for both rims. The Stans rim tape was easy to apply to the rims with an internal diameter of 19c. The UST tyres now went on easily just using hands. The tyres inflated easily first time without soapy water or sealant, with just the pump I carry on bike. I repeated 7 times to check it was not a fluke. They seem to lock in place at about 20 psi. The recommended pressure on these width rims is only 54 psi for 28mm rubber, lower for 30mm etc. They roll nice and smooth and are comfy at these pressures. I added sealant later. The tyres are holding their original pressures after 48 hours.

So big thumbs up to UST road tyres and rims. Big thumbs down to their UST rim tape.

hi Phil, curious about this as I am having some sealing issues with those same rims.
Mine has got some rim 'tape' installed which is like rubber but it seems to overlap near the valve rather than be a single continuous strip - is that what yours was like?

And when you put the stans tape on did you have a rim 'strip' underneath the tape, or don't you need that? The stans website seems to allude that you do but not sure whether it's rim-dependent.
And did you end up using mavic valves or stans valves?

As you can see from the rim profile shape on this page https://www.prowheelbuilder.com/mavic-open-pro-ust-msw-700c-black-rim.html
Mavic Open Pro UST have a "tubeless" shape with a shelf next to the rim. So I'd be happy using them without a rim strip

My old (but recently updated) blog page on tubeless stuff covers this shape thing https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/whats-so-great-about-tubeless-tyres/

Ben T · « **Reply #753 on:** 30 August, 2018, 01:46:48 pm »

Thanks.
Next Q, I have heard contradictory opinions on whether a tubeless tyre "should" be able to hold air even without any sealant. Anyone care to cast a deciding vote?

vorsprung · « **Reply #754 on:** 30 August, 2018, 05:14:34 pm »

Quote from: Ben T on 30 August, 2018, 01:46:48 pm

Thanks.
Next Q, I have heard contradictory opinions on whether a tubeless tyre "should" be able to hold air even without any sealant. Anyone care to cast a deciding vote?

It just depends. If the wheel is true, the tape good, the tyre correctly moulded then yes. But meanwhile in the real world all stuff has little imperfections. The sealant can deal with those tiny difficulties. Usually (when i've tried it) one of the tyres inflates to a good pressure without sealant and the other one doesn't. More careful people than myself may have a higher success rate than 50%

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #755 on:** 30 August, 2018, 05:53:42 pm »

I see no point whatsoever in using tubeless tyres without sealant.

jiberjaber · « **Reply #756 on:** 30 August, 2018, 10:10:56 pm »

I have had tyres hold air once the sealant has been used up. But not fresh on with no liquid.

Phil W · « **Reply #757 on:** 30 August, 2018, 10:16:01 pm »

Quote from: Ben T on 29 August, 2018, 02:32:20 pm

Quote from: Phil W on 17 June, 2018, 08:05:48 pm
Experience of Mavic UST road tubeless.

I recently built some new wheels with Mavic Open Pro UST road rims.

Verdict.

They sell a special UST rim tape that stretches over rim and it not stuck down like the rest of road tubeless rim tape. I never got this to sit properly in the rim and it made trying to get the UST tyres on a bastard. It would not seal. I gave up with the rim tape after swearing a lot and skinning my thumbs trying to get tyres on.

Used a spare roll of Stans 21mm tape I had. Enough for both rims. The Stans rim tape was easy to apply to the rims with an internal diameter of 19c. The UST tyres now went on easily just using hands. The tyres inflated easily first time without soapy water or sealant, with just the pump I carry on bike. I repeated 7 times to check it was not a fluke. They seem to lock in place at about 20 psi. The recommended pressure on these width rims is only 54 psi for 28mm rubber, lower for 30mm etc. They roll nice and smooth and are comfy at these pressures. I added sealant later. The tyres are holding their original pressures after 48 hours.

So big thumbs up to UST road tyres and rims. Big thumbs down to their UST rim tape.

hi Phil, curious about this as I am having some sealing issues with those same rims.
Mine has got some rim 'tape' installed which is like rubber but it seems to overlap near the valve rather than be a single continuous strip - is that what yours was like?

And when you put the stans tape on did you have a rim 'strip' underneath the tape, or don't you need that? The stans website seems to allude that you do but not sure whether it's rim-dependent.
And did you end up using mavic valves or stans valves?

Single continuous rubber strip. But pretty sure I had the wrong version now. As for the stans, nothing under neath it, I applied it direct to the rim surface. I am using the Mavic valves.

Ben T · « **Reply #758 on:** 31 August, 2018, 08:44:08 am »

Quote from: Hot Flatus on 30 August, 2018, 05:53:42 pm

I see no point whatsoever in using tubeless tyres without sealant.

Not to ride, no, but the point of it is to test whether the system as a whole is put together well enough.

Quote from: vorsprung on 30 August, 2018, 05:14:34 pm

Quote from: Ben T on 30 August, 2018, 01:46:48 pm
Thanks.
Next Q, I have heard contradictory opinions on whether a tubeless tyre "should" be able to hold air even without any sealant. Anyone care to cast a deciding vote?

It just depends. If the wheel is true, the tape good, the tyre correctly moulded then yes. But meanwhile in the real world all stuff has little imperfections. The sealant can deal with those tiny difficulties. Usually (when i've tried it) one of the tyres inflates to a good pressure without sealant and the other one doesn't. More careful people than myself may have a higher success rate than 50%

Yes, that seems to make sense. When you say "the other one doesn't [inflate to a good pressure without sealant]" - do you mean it inflates but then goes down over minutes/hours, or doesn't inflate at all even with bead seated ie air gushes straight out again? If the latter, does that then go on to be successful with sealant - or does the fact it doesn't inflate at all mean something is fundamentally wrong?

In other words, is there a minimum standard of air retention without sealant that I should be looking for before I decide the build quality of the system as a whole is good enough to put into service, and thus before I bother adding sealant?

Got these mavic rims currently with stans tape applied to them - currently don't hold air without sealant for more than a couple of seconds - just gushes straight out again. As far as I can tell I've applied the tape correctly - pulled taut, pushed into the well, no air bubbles, twice round with 6" overlap.
I was kind of expecting/hoping that they might hold air for a few hours without sealant but go soft overnight but not straight down like they are doing.
Going to run tubes on this bike for now till I decide how to proceed - not least because I think that if it works, it might be the case that the stability of the system starts off poor but improves as the sealant 'beds in' and it might take a few rides for it to find its way into all the nooks and crannies.

rafletcher · « **Reply #759 on:** 31 August, 2018, 01:37:14 pm »

Any tubeless setup, with the tyre seated, will hold air, although they may deflate in a few minutes, and sometimes you'll hear it. And the reason is generally that the tyre isn't actually fully seated (assuming the rim tape is tight)! They can take a lot of pressure to fully seat, and I usually use a small amount of liquid detergent on the beads, and CO2 inflators, to pop them on first time around. Then they'll hold for some time - it varies, can be 30 mins, can be a couple of hours. Even WITH sealant a good setup can deflate over the first night - or indeed a couple of nights. Latex sealant is better IME at initially sealing than the CO2 friendly Finish Line stuff. The latter has particles in suspension, and IME the base fluid can pass without driving the particles out to seal, whereas latex gums stuff up.

Your last comment is very true. The shaking and rattling a tyre gets on the road is more effective than anything you can do in the shed at spreading the sealant about.

zigzag · « **Reply #760 on:** 31 August, 2018, 02:57:11 pm »

had two punctures on the club run last week, front and rear. both were small cuts of 1-2mm and sealed while riding.

pros:
*didn't have to stop to sort out the punctures
*easy rolling, lovely ride feel

cons:
*the guy behind me wasn't happy about the sealant squirting from the rear tyre
*most of the sealant was sprayed out from the rear tyre, covering the bike (and my back) with sticky mess - topped up with 30ml at home
*front of the bike and down tube were also covered with sticky mess from the front tyre
*tyres wouldn't hold the pressure (~90psi) so they had to be patched from the inside, at home - this took almost an hour(!)
*bike had to be cleaned which also took forever (any tips for removing dried out sealant?)

i'll keep using the tubeless as overall the benefits slightly outweigh the drawbacks, i only hope that the technology keeps improving to the point where having road tubeless becomes a no-brainer.

vorsprung · « **Reply #761 on:** 31 August, 2018, 04:23:09 pm »

Quote from: Ben T on 31 August, 2018, 08:44:08 am

In other words, is there a minimum standard of air retention without sealant that I should be looking for before I decide the build quality of the system as a whole is good enough to put into service, and thus before I bother adding sealant?

Got these mavic rims currently with stans tape applied to them - currently don't hold air without sealant for more than a couple of seconds - just gushes straight out again. As far as I can tell I've applied the tape correctly - pulled taut, pushed into the well, no air bubbles, twice round with 6" overlap.
I was kind of expecting/hoping that they might hold air for a few hours without sealant but go soft overnight but not straight down like they are doing.
Going to run tubes on this bike for now till I decide how to proceed - not least because I think that if it works, it might be the case that the stability of the system starts off poor but improves as the sealant 'beds in' and it might take a few rides for it to find its way into all the nooks and crannies.

Maybe I am not being clear enough but the sealant is part of the "system" and I've had a couple of tyres that would not inflate at all (as you describe) without sealant.

As rafletcher points out, the seating sometimes only occurs at high pressure when the tyre "pops" into place. That's why they use soapy water, to help this happen. Sometimes there is a chicken and egg situation: the tyre won't seat until it is at high pressure. But it can't get to high pressure because it isn't sealed. And it isn't sealed as it isn't seated. The sealant can break this vicious cycle by semi-sealing an unseated tyre and letting it get to a pressure where it "pops" into a real seating

rafletcher · « **Reply #762 on:** 01 September, 2018, 01:26:36 pm »

I have to say I’m somewhat disappointed with the initial performance of the Finish Line sealant. The new Sector 28 rear tyre I fitted (to a rim previously used with latex sealant and a Schwalbe 1) was dead flat this morning, after a week of being left. The front was down to 3 bar from 7 over the same period. I think it’s possibly because the FL sealant has fibres in suspension, and some flow is required to push them into place to seal. A slow leak at the rim may not be fast enough to do that unless the bike gets ridden more, which hasn’t been the case due to work etc recently.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #763 on:** 01 September, 2018, 04:32:10 pm »

Yeah it's bollocks. Expensive bollocks too.

Back to Orangeseal endurance.

bludger · « **Reply #764 on:** 01 September, 2018, 04:39:23 pm »

Anyone given PX's Magic Milk a crack yet?

https://www.planetx.co.uk/s?q=magic+milk

Looks economical

chrisbainbridge · « **Reply #765 on:** 03 September, 2018, 08:26:56 pm »

I have been using the Finish Line ever since I got it. Initially i though the tyres deflated slightly faster than with latex but no difference now. Advantage for me isis i puncture I can use the CO2

rafletcher · « **Reply #766 on:** 04 September, 2018, 12:46:27 pm »

Well after a second ride at the weekend (I've mostly been using the "fair weather" bike), the sealing on the rear has definitely improved over what it was, so I'll persevere with it, due to the CO2 friendliness.

ETA: This Friday the pressure drops were 1 bar on the front and 1.5 On the rear. Much better.

vorsprung · « **Reply #767 on:** 25 September, 2018, 02:36:06 pm »

idiots guide to road tubeless

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/bike-kit/set-up/article/izn20150421-Intermediate-Tubeless-Tyre-Set-up-Tips-0?utm_campaign=621787_Membership%20Member%20News%2020%2F09%2F2018&utm_medium=email&utm_source=British%20Cycling%20V2&dm_i=480K,DBRV,1O77V2,1HMDL,1

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #768 on:** 25 September, 2018, 05:17:25 pm »

I'm now 3 years into using tubeless, across 3 bikes, with 3 different wheelers and brands of tyre.

What I've learned is not to rush. Don't omit any steps, such as mounting the tyre and inflating it 'dry to see if works, before then deflating and introducing sealant via the valve (minus core)

What is also clear is that once sealed you have to ride the bike, everyday, for a few days before you find the tyre stops deflating.

citoyen · « **Reply #769 on:** 26 September, 2018, 12:09:28 pm »

I suffered a catastrophic puncture on a ride a month or so ago - hit a sharp stone that gashed the sidewall and the hole was too big for the sealant to do its job.

I stuck a tube in for the rest of the ride and eventually got around to repairing the tyre, by patching it on the inside (using a patch from a regular puncture repair kit), the day before setting off for the Fenland Friends 600.

Schoolboy error. The patch apparently wasn't strong enough to contain the pressure and bulged out through the hole, forcing me to reduce the pressure in the tyre. But that made the ride sluggish, so I was just 25km into the 600 when I stopped to put some more air in... and it was only another few km before I felt the tyre going soft...

I put a tube in, which was fine for the rest of the ride, but now I'm wondering what to do next.

Is it likely that the patch I used just wasn't up to the job and I'd get better results by using a different type of patch? If so, any recommendations?

Or is the problem more likely to be that I didn't allow enough time for the patch to cure before riding the bike?

Or something else?

rafletcher · « **Reply #770 on:** 26 September, 2018, 12:15:53 pm »

Hutchinson "Rep'air" kits contain strong(er) patches for internal patching of tubeless tyres I believe. MTB kit has larger patches.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Hutchinson-Rep-Air-Tubeless-Repair-Kit_113515.htm?sku=424734&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzqL4jMXY3QIVwbTtCh38ag4vEAQYAiABEgL_VvD_BwE#

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #771 on:** 26 September, 2018, 12:17:03 pm »

These are what I use.

citoyen · « **Reply #772 on:** 26 September, 2018, 12:20:10 pm »

Thanks, will give those a try.

It would be a shame to have to bin these tyres (ERE Omnia) because I really like them. The sidewall seems very thin and flexible compared to some tubeless tyres, which is perhaps both their greatest strength and their greatest weakness...

And I've had several instances of punctures that did successfully seal themselves while riding, so I'm totally sold on the tubeless concept. The best one happened while I was in the middle of discussing tubeless tyres with a fellow rider who was debating whether or not to try them for himself (his new bike already had tubeless-ready wheels). A brief spurt of white gunk, which stopped within seconds, and after he picked up his jaw from the ground, he said, 'Right, that's decided it, I'm going tubeless!'

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #773 on:** 26 September, 2018, 12:23:59 pm »

About a year ago I bought a pair of Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galaktik tyres with a view to putting them on some non-TL carbon wheels. I got them for about £16 each. They are the lightest of the Fusion 5 range, no puncture protection. I suspected maybe they were cheap because unpopular because meh.

Got round to fitting them At the weekend. My god they are good. I wish I'd bought a shed full at that price

citoyen · « **Reply #774 on:** 26 September, 2018, 12:38:59 pm »

Just looked up the Galactiks - RRP is £59.99, so it sounds like you got an excellent deal there.

My ERE tyres are about the same price, iirc. I do like them a lot but I'm very glad I didn't have to pay for them. Will have to see if I can blag another set once they're worn out...

I've also got a set of Maxxis Padrone, which are fine but they come up a bit narrow for my liking.