maintaining speed over longer distances, how ?

[jamesld8]

Another 2p worth...
If one uses one of the online "bicycle calculators" looking at energy, speed, gradient, wind, time , etc. you can run various scenarios. Some time ago I tried it to see what the most efficient use of energy was for hilly longer rides I tend to do in the Peak District (being a slowish old git most of the time!)
If you compare, for example, using a constant 180W as opposed to 50W downhill, 150W on the level and 220W uphill you will find that the latter scenario uses about 20% less energy overall and is actually 4% faster... (using my parameters; YMMV  )
Practically, this seems to be valid too - the easiest way to improve times on hilly rides seems to be to expend the excess energy on the climb sections...
Perhaps, therefore, the answer is to practice using every hill as an interval and the rest as recovery?

good to see some calculations behind my theory . i always felt that it pays to put in more effort up the hills as it's not cancelled out by air resistance. you need to pedal exponentially harder on the flat to win the same amount of time.

and does this then not explain why majority Grand Tours winners have to be very good hill climbers--they can pack out the extra effort uphill, and on hilly TT the same ?

[jsabine]

Practically, this seems to be valid too - the easiest way to improve times on hilly rides seems to be to expend the excess energy on the climb sections...

good to see some calculations behind my theory . i always felt that it pays to put in more effort up the hills as it's not cancelled out by air resistance. you need to pedal exponentially harder on the flat to win the same amount of time.

It's more about average speeds I think - it's a much bigger benefit for your average to get the slow bits a bit faster than it is to get the quick bits a lot faster.

Take a theoretical route with equal climbing, descent and flat, and if you can increase your climbing speed from 10 to 15km/h you'll gain much more time than if you increase your descending from 40-55, or your flat speed from 25-35.   (The table's nonsense of course, but shows the principle.)

	Distance	Speed
Climb	30km	10km/h	15	10	10	12
Descend	30	40	40	55	40	50
Flat	30	25	25	25	35	30
Time taken		04:57	03:57	04:45	04:36	04:06
Ave Speed		18.2	22.8	19.0	19.5	22.0

[hellymedic]

Many will think some discomfort might go with the Audax territory.
A full bladder yields no winners.

Nor yet a straining sphincter.  Immodium & bogroll a-plenty in the saddlebag.

Ensure a really clean bum with moist wipes etc.
Poor hygiene -> soreness.

[T42]

Nor yet a straining sphincter.  Immodium & bogroll a-plenty in the saddlebag.

The problem with immodium (and other medication that shuts down the digestive tract)...

That what the stuff does?  Not ideal, then.

[Nelson Longflap]

Another 2p worth...
If one uses one of the online "bicycle calculators" looking at energy, speed, gradient, wind, time , etc. you can run various scenarios. Some time ago I tried it to see what the most efficient use of energy was for hilly longer rides I tend to do in the Peak District (being a slowish old git most of the time!)
If you compare, for example, using a constant 180W as opposed to 50W downhill, 150W on the level and 220W uphill you will find that the latter scenario uses about 20% less energy overall and is actually 4% faster... (using my parameters; YMMV  )
Practically, this seems to be valid too - the easiest way to improve times on hilly rides seems to be to expend the excess energy on the climb sections...
Perhaps, therefore, the answer is to practice using every hill as an interval and the rest as recovery?

good to see some calculations behind my theory . i always felt that it pays to put in more effort up the hills as it's not cancelled out by air resistance. you need to pedal exponentially harder on the flat to win the same amount of time.

and does this then not explain why majority Grand Tours winners have to be very good hill climbers--they can pack out the extra effort uphill, and on hilly TT the same ?

I learned a lot on a 400 km ride in France last July. I rode with a PBP ancien who demonstrated exactly the above strategy: we pressed hard up the hills without pushing our heartrates into the red, freewheeled down the hills, stopped at lots of cafes and had two proper restaurant meals, and passed loads of others in the last 100km or so as we just maintained a steady speed throughout (helped by the end of the ride being flat - if anything we were faster in this last phase).

My fastest audax was the Wylye Ebble 200km ride this year with a rolling average of 25.8 kph. Most of my audaxes are ridden a fair bit slower at around 22kph, although (on the plus side) the length of the ride doesn't seem to make a lot of difference to my moving average speed. So for a happy PBP I need to get faster too ...

This thread is one of the best I've seen on PBP prep.  Thanks to all, I'll be aiming to put into practice some of the above strategies.   

[jamesld8]

This thread is one of the best I've seen on PBP prep.  Thanks to all, I'll be aiming to put into practice some of the above strategies

yes there`s lots useful info and shared advice; whilst I may not be getting round to TTs I have lined up a couple local circuits of 100-110km with minor ascent (about 1000m each so not flat, but best available around here) which I`ll aim to `race` around>>> try for 3.5 hr. One loop also has a 300m / 6km climb (Clee Hill from Tenbury)  midpoint in its `flatness` so that could also be a useful training section too

[Nelson Longflap]

Perhaps also worth reiterating that AIUI your strategy is not to ride a long audax as fast as possible, it's riding fast enough to enable some quality time for eating and sleeping. Seems to me an excellent approach, in an audaxing context I've no interest in PBs or finishing early.

What I'd like to achieve on PBP is to eat at my regular mealtimes and sleep at my regular sleep times (I'm comfortable enough with around 6 hours sleep per night for quite a few days, but will eventually crash out). What is the best way to partition the ride in order to achieve this?

[jamesld8]

Correct  ---I have no interest in getting PBs / fastest times in a group,  but being able to ride at a pace that is quick but comfortable and gives me sleep time / time to eat without getting rushed.

On BCM I got 2 hours sleep (in the grass@ Kings in a bivi bag) felt remarkably refreshed and finished in 37hr total, which included quite leisurely food / drink stops---I didn`t, fortunately, get into a situation where I had to compromise off bike time as I was getting behind on moving speed. That `s what I want to be able to do again in a PBP

[LittleWheelsandBig]

If you are doing the 90hr start, you have to ride through that first night or you will spend a lot of time bouncing against the time limit. So you won't get much (or probably any) sleep that night at least.

If you take the 84hr start, you have to cover quite a bit of ground before you can get a decent sleep stop. If you want 6 hours sleep each night, you are going to have to ride very quickly. Some folk do aim to ride PBP (almost) without using their lights but it ain't easy.

[jamesld8]

I`ll just have to ride thro` night 1 then it seems !! and continue to a sleep on night 2 ?? I`m obviously going to have to read up quite a bit on the breakdown of the ride--expecting maybe ride 400km to stop for night 2??

[zigzag]

yes, first night ride through, come to brest late evening, then sleep six hours every night from then on.

[jamesld8]

yes, first night ride through, come to brest late evening, then sleep six hours every night from then on.

That`s quite some going--600km in day 1 ? I was considering maybe 450 ish--that is as far as Carhaix isn`t it--then sleep ; but maybe 600 isn`t off limits for me ? Sounds as if you`d  ride it as 600 + 300 + 300?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Loudiac is about 450km, Carhaix is about 520km.

[jamesld8]

Loudiac is about 450km, Carhaix is about 520km.

thanks    ---for those with the experience of PBP are either these realistic first sleep stops? From my limited 400 / 600 experience I`ve found myself to be doing dozies @ the 370 + mark, but that`s from an 06:00 start. I do seem to need my sleep

[Exit Stage Left]

Another 2p worth...
If one uses one of the online "bicycle calculators" looking at energy, speed, gradient, wind, time , etc. you can run various scenarios. Some time ago I tried it to see what the most efficient use of energy was for hilly longer rides I tend to do in the Peak District (being a slowish old git most of the time!)
If you compare, for example, using a constant 180W as opposed to 50W downhill, 150W on the level and 220W uphill you will find that the latter scenario uses about 20% less energy overall and is actually 4% faster... (using my parameters; YMMV  )
Practically, this seems to be valid too - the easiest way to improve times on hilly rides seems to be to expend the excess energy on the climb sections...
Perhaps, therefore, the answer is to practice using every hill as an interval and the rest as recovery?

good to see some calculations behind my theory . i always felt that it pays to put in more effort up the hills as it's not cancelled out by air resistance. you need to pedal exponentially harder on the flat to win the same amount of time.

That ignores mass and heat dissipation. I can work at 150bpm for 30 minutes on the flat, but much less than that uphill before I 'blow'. Similar effects happen on tandems. Climbing is useful for extending your tolerance of heat, due to the lack of cooling air.
Time triallists such as Froome and Wiggins can only climb effectively with a very low BMI, which is why they find it difficult to replicate their successes. It's uncomfortable to be that thin, and unhealthy. It's not only power to weight, but proximity of blood vessels to the skin for cooling.
Climbing short hills hard makes you better at sprinting, ideal for getting on the wheel of a passing group. Around here we have longer hills where heat becomes an issue.

[marcusjb]

Loudiac is about 450km, Carhaix is about 520km.

And (assuming they do it again) St Nicolas du Pelem (not a control, but a sleep stop) is about 490 ish. 

[marcusjb]

Loudiac is about 450km, Carhaix is about 520km.

thanks    ---for those with the experience of PBP are either these realistic first sleep stops? From my limited 400 / 600 experience I`ve found myself to be doing dozies @ the 370 + mark, but that`s from an 06:00 start. I do seem to need my sleep

Everything is different on PBP.

Assuming you are in the 90 hour group - you will start somewhere from late afternoon to early evening.  Most people will aim to stop to sleep at 10pm to midnight on night 2 - so you should have covered 450-500km for sure.  Night 1 will take care of itself - the adrenaline of riding in big groups at warp factor 10 will keep you going along with the whole spectacle of it all.  Then push on as far as possible into night 2. 

As ever, everyone is different and needs for sleeping are vastly different and some people may well need a cat nap on that first full day.  Abstinence from caffeine can help in the build up and then making sure you are sleeping well in the couple of weeks leading into the event.

[jamesld8]

Thanks Marcus, hoped you`d put a 2p worth in having read your PBP blog.

Sleeping well in 2 weeks leading to event could well be an issue---haven`t had a run of decent night sleep for over a year now  , often broken sleep, often well awake by 5am  BUT still seem to need 7hr + sleep

[marcusjb]

If you are a regular caffeine drinker, I do highly recommend abstaining for about 3 weeks prior to any long ride.  Not only will it help with the sleeping in the build up, but means that a coffee is like rocket fuel when you do have one on PBP. 

You will hear 'race out, tour back' a lot over the coming months - it does seem to work.  Rip through the first 500ish km and build up a decent buffer for a sleep.  Then see what happens. 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

ACP's advice is that if you sleep before Loudiac, you are very likely to DNF. I went against that advice for PBP07 (combination of jet lag and overwork beforehand) and bounced pretty hard against the time limit till the last day. Don't do it.

[marcusjb]

ACP's advice is that if you sleep before Loudiac, you are very likely to DNF. I went against that advice for PBP07 (combination of jet lag and overwork beforehand) and bounced pretty hard against the time limit till the last day. Don't do it.

Interesting (and I can believe it). 

[mattc]

ACP's advice is that if you sleep before Loudiac, you are very likely to DNF. I went against that advice for PBP07 (combination of jet lag and overwork beforehand) and bounced pretty hard against the time limit till the last day. Don't do it.

I would say your problem was the jet lag and overwork.

Needing to sleep before Loudeac was just a symptom. If you REALLY needed to sleep then, it was probably the right call to stop.
(Someone who posts here slept before Villaines in 2011! He then passed me and remained ahead for the whole of the rest of the ride. )

There are too many unknowns here, so of course I'm guessing a lot!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I didn't have an option with regards to where I slept that year. Because I slept early and short (no time to sleep long), my riding speed remained low for most of the event and I couldn't gain enough time to get a decent sleep that would let me ride faster. I was leaving my sleep controls over an hour after they closed.

My opinion is that it is stupid to expect to 'sleep early' for the first half of PBP. Instead, do whatever is necessary to get as far down the road as possible, until Brest at least.

[Tewdric]

Get fit.

Don't waste time off the bike.

[zigzag]

yes, first night ride through, come to brest late evening, then sleep six hours every night from then on.

That`s quite some going--600km in day 1 ? I was considering maybe 450 ish--that is as far as Carhaix isn`t it--then sleep ; but maybe 600 isn`t off limits for me ? Sounds as if you`d  ride it as 600 + 300 + 300?

paris-brest is much faster than a typical uk 600, also - most riders are keen to get there quick then "tour" back. plenty of groups to tag along to. according to a chap i spoke with on hgwi1300 who did pbp in 51h, the key is to be a part of a good group. one german group of 18 who i was riding with 'till the first control, they rode very slowly uphills staying with their slowest rider, but on the flats they could really shift. they finished in respectable 54h iirc, with few riders dnf'ing. so, if you want to be carried to brest with little effort of your own (relatively), buddy-up with a decent group.