My legs won't go

[menthel]

How comes my legs go way before my cardiovascular system gets stressed?

If I am going up a hill my legs will always give out before my breathing goes and my heart rate gets up towards my max. A similar thing will happen if I am pushing hard on the flat, my legs fatigue before my CV system.

I guess its because I have fairly good general fitness (running, personal training and cycling) but don't do enough cycling to improve my legs and the ability to stand the lactic acid that builds up.

What is goign to be best to sort this out? Just more time on the bike (I wish!) or could it be better served with targetted training, eg intervals?

[sojournermike]

I'd start by looking at your cadence - higher cadence will buy your legs time at the expense of your CV system. If you're a masher change down and spin faster. Fit lower gears if necessary. If you already maintain 90 rpm plus, sorry for having said this.

Then it's down to targeted training - intervals and high cadence work.

(My alternative is to lose some of my excess weight, which will make the hills, at least, easier or faster)

[menthel]

I'd start by looking at your cadence - higher cadence will buy your legs time at the expense of your CV system. If you're a masher change down and spin faster. Fit lower gears if necessary. If you already maintain 90 rpm plus, sorry for having said this.

Then it's down to targeted training - intervals and high cadence work.

(My alternative is to lose some of my excess weight, which will make the hills, at least, easier or faster)

Thanks Mike. I have already tried to bring my cadence up and usually manage an average of 85 rpm, I will try to bring this up. I am already fairly well geared (I feel) with my soot bike having 50/34 and 11-28 and my Italia having 50/34 11-32.

Looks like intervals and cadence work! Is there a good resorce to help structing such efforts?

[mike]

I was taught 2 different types of interval session, and told to do both once a week.  The first is 2 x 20 minutes at 'hard but not crazy' speed.  You should be pretty knackered by the end of each 20 minutes but after a 5 - 10 minute gentle recovery pedal you're ready to go again and you *could* do a 3rd if someone paid you to do it.   

The other is a shorter, harder interval of 3 or 4 minutes which you do 4 times with a 3 or 4 minute recovery between each, then a 20 minute gentle pedal then you do another 4 bursts.  These are flat out, I used to do them up a quiet hill and they hurt like hell.

enjoy!!

[menthel]

I was taught 2 different types of interval session, and told to do both once a week.  The first is 2 x 20 minutes at 'hard but not crazy' speed.  You should be pretty knackered by the end of each 20 minutes but after a 5 - 10 minute gentle recovery pedal you're ready to go again and you *could* do a 3rd if someone paid you to do it.   

The other is a shorter, harder interval of 3 or 4 minutes which you do 4 times with a 3 or 4 minute recovery between each, then a 20 minute gentle pedal then you do another 4 bursts.  These are flat out, I used to do them up a quiet hill and they hurt like hell.

enjoy!!

Probably something I could do round Richmond Park as each lap takes me just over 20 minutes. I will see if I can build up the energy and willing post work a couple of times a week.

[Ningishzidda]

Playing computer games improves the cardio system, but not the legs.

Get out on your bike!

[menthel]

Playing computer games improves the cardio system, but not the legs.

Get out on your bike!

If only it were that simple!

[T42]

I've always reckoned that it's a single system. CV sends fuel to legs which burn it and ask for more. If none forthcoming legs down tools. When I was on the accursed beta-blockers this was particularly obvious. Heart was never stressed and the only reason I got out of breath was from swearing at the goddamned cardiologist for the pain in my legs.

[sojournermike]

I've always reckoned that it's a single system. CV sends fuel to legs which burn it and ask for more. If none forthcoming legs down tools. When I was on the accursed beta-blockers this was particularly obvious. Heart was never stressed and the only reason I got out of breath was from swearing at the goddamned cardiologist for the pain in my legs.

But, higher effort (i.e. force) on each pedal stroke recruits different muscle fibres that are not equally effective at utilising oxygen on an ongoing basis, so more force (or equivalently lower cadence) tires  muscles and builds up lactate more quickly than lower force/higher cadence - supposing that you can clear any lactate generated at teh higher cadence for a given power. Plus, apparently higher cadences support the heart and circulatory system, further improving sustained power generation.

Beta blockers slowing and suppressing max attainable heart rate just introduce a CV limit to system performance.

Michele Ferrari wrote a very good little analysis of Froome and Cancellara a few months ago that points at a lot of this stuff. Worth looking out - also touches on painfully thin Mo Farah

Mike

[LEE]

You need cycling muscles as well as a good CV system.

I have a good CV system, I can cycle for 400km in one go but I'm bolloxed if I run 200 yards or do any digging in the garden.  I haven't got the right muscles.

Time on the bike is good, intervals are good, hills are good...it 's all good.

[mrcharly-YHT]

85 isn't fast.
Try sprints in your bottom gear. Concentrate on spinning your feet in circles, not pushing the pedals around.

Another - set off at least 2 gears lower than normal, don't change up and ride at your normal cruising speed.

[T42]

Obviously you need the muscles, the motor that burns the fuel.

[sojournermike]

I know his reputation and background, but this is a useful commentary

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=15


And this is the first article I thought of

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=139

[menthel]

Tried some experiments (being anecdata) on the ride into work this morning and took myself up Balham Hill a couple of gears lower this morning, spinning like Froomey. I don't have a cadence meter on my Italia but I suspect I was somewhere north of 120rpm. The results were that I had a heart rate of 170 by the end of it but my legs didn't feel fatigued. I will need to try a bigger hill but there was definately a less fatigued feel in my legs by the time I got to work having consciously kept my cadence up. I think I will have to dig out the fitments for the other cadence meter I have to fit to this bike so that I can try and up my caence in general to give an average of about 90 rpm. I suspect that may help.

The Ferrari articles are interesting. He is obviously a very intellegent man with interesting ideas who just ended up taking them to the logical, if rather illegal conclusion. Scientifically what he promoted was very sucessful, just completely against the rules of the sport and professional medical conduct!

[Ningishzidda]

When you ride a bicycle, there are two possible leverages to make the front pedal go down. The first is gravity and the second is the rear shoe attached to its pedal pulling up.
There is a third. The handlebars, but is not regarded good form.

Sustained light activity when using gravity as the leverage requires sustained light activity to encourage the cardiac, vascular, pulmonary and muscular systems to adapt to the demand.

Short excursions using the rear foot as leverage requires climbing steep hills repeatedly until the task seems easier or faster by encouraging the same body systems as developed in sustained light activity.

Hill climb training helps sustained light activity, but sustained light activity training does not help hill climbing.

[Jakob]

Start a squat programme and incorporate some HIIT in your cycling/workouts.

We just got some 'Assault bikes' in our gym and as introduction had to do 4x30 seconds all-out sprints and it's probably one the hardest things I've ever done on bike-like thing.

[vorsprung]

I sort of agree with Jakob but my method would be to ride a single speed around hilly terrain

Or keep doing hills that do give your legs "the burn"

It used to be fun to get high on endorphins from climbing a hill or two.  My body doesn't work like that now.  Recently did 5 or 6 repeats up a 200m hill and afterwards just felt nicely warmed up. btw although my legs don't feel the strain my lower back is a different story