Author Topic: TdeF 2017  (Read 95537 times)

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #125 on: 04 July, 2017, 08:12:03 pm »
What did Boardman say? I only get French commentary over here.

Said Demare needs to be punished too if decisions was made on consequences rather than direct action at the time.

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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #126 on: 04 July, 2017, 08:22:03 pm »
The overhand footage doesn't show too much because they're hidden by a tree when there's contact.

Photos show Cav going down and Sagan's elbow out but with the picture foreshortened it's hard to know how close Sagan's elbow actually is.
Was the elbow out to bash Cav or as a way for Sagan to balance himself? I don't know; IMO probably the latter.

I can agree with Sagan being bumped to last on the stage.

I cannot agree with my being DSQ-ed from the race.

Perhaps they should put a lot of parallel lines down the finish straight and DQ everybody who crosses a line? Going from behind for a gap that doesn't exist is always going to put you into the barriers.

Quite
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #127 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:05:10 pm »


That's big elbow!  Right decision IMO.

I dont think the elbow is anywhere near Cav. The elbow didnt cause the crash. Sagan swerved into him. That's what caused the crash.

Chris S

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #128 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:06:51 pm »
I dont think the elbow is anywhere near Cav. The elbow didnt cause the crash. Sagan swerved into him. That's what caused the crash.

Not to mention, someone of Cav's experience, ending up against the barrier.

#easyformetosay

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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #129 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:21:07 pm »
From my viewings it's not Sagan's elbow that's the damning evidence, it's the body check he seems to do just as Cav gets an overlap. I know that sprinters move around a lot on their bikes (and I am a dark sided, so what do I know!) but his whole body seems to. I've up and right at just the wrong moment for Cav.
I think it was probably an instinctive defensive movement to something happening in his peripheral vision at a crucial moment for his own move, but he should have moved to his left as it's not as if he was boxed in.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #130 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:28:29 pm »
I dont think the elbow is anywhere near Cav. The elbow didnt cause the crash. Sagan swerved into him. That's what caused the crash.

While discussing the matter might help while away the evening, the fact is no matter what folk on YACF may think or believe, the Jury has decided, with the benefit of recorded evidence, that the actions of Sagan were sufficient to warrant a DQ.  Cav appears to believe Sagan's elbow action was unnecessary and wishes to speak to him on the matter.  Sagan is out and very likely Cav will be out which, as Chris S, has posted, makes the TdF less of a spectacle.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #131 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:29:14 pm »
That's rather harsh to go for a full DSQ. Tho I think I can see why.

I hope Cav recovers fast.

Certainly going to be an interesting tour!

J
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #132 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:36:08 pm »
I dont think the elbow is anywhere near Cav. The elbow didnt cause the crash. Sagan swerved into him. That's what caused the crash.

While discussing the matter might help while away the evening, the fact is no matter what folk on YACF may think or believe, the Jury has decided, with the benefit of recorded evidence, that the actions of Sagan were sufficient to warrant a DQ.  Cav appears to believe Sagan's elbow action was unnecessary and wishes to speak to him on the matter.  Sagan is out and very likely Cav will be out which, as Chris S, has posted, makes the TdF less of a spectacle.

Yeah I think we all realise that the race jury probably isn't busy checking Yacf to see what they should have done.

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #133 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:43:17 pm »
https://streamable.com/j7gqb

When I first saw the overhead shot, the elbow looked extremely blatant and I agreed with the decision, but this makes it a lot more muddled. A DQ is too harsh.

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #134 on: 04 July, 2017, 09:54:13 pm »
Yeah I think we all realise that the race jury probably isn't busy checking Yacf to see what they should have done.

Correct!  They have to make decisions that will have a significant affect on both riders, sponsors and the overall spectacle that is the TdF, while we can all idly speculate without too many ramifications on what happened and what action should or should not have resulted.  Don't even have to visit a pub for the inevitable 'couple of pints and a packet of crisps' discussion.  Oh the joy of technology!

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #135 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:16:07 pm »
The cynic in me would like to point out that two significant entrants in the green jersey contest are out of the way and a Frenchman got a stage win and lots of points
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #136 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:26:21 pm »
The cynic in me would like to point out that two significant entrants in the green jersey contest are out of the way and a Frenchman got a stage win and lots of points

Monsieur Chauvin, le Commissaire: Vous pourriez penser cela, mais je ne pourrais pas faire de commentaires:demon:
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #137 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:27:05 pm »
I dont think the elbow is anywhere near Cav. The elbow didnt cause the crash. Sagan swerved into him. That's what caused the crash.

While discussing the matter might help while away the evening, the fact is no matter what folk on YACF may think or believe, the Jury has decided, with the benefit of recorded evidence, that the actions of Sagan were sufficient to warrant a DQ.  Cav appears to believe Sagan's elbow action was unnecessary and wishes to speak to him on the matter.  Sagan is out and very likely Cav will be out which, as Chris S, has posted, makes the TdF less of a spectacle.

Yeah I think we all realise that the race jury probably isn't busy checking Yacf to see what they should have done.
Their loss! ;)
216km from Marsh Gibbon

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #138 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:30:17 pm »
Would be interesting to hear what cav has to say.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #139 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:37:17 pm »
Seen this from above and front and the more I see it the more it looks like Sagan forcing Cav into the barriers. And Boardman got it wrong. A zoomed in slo-mo from the front on the BBC news shows Sagan closing the space for Cav down to next to nothing, his elbow coming out to make sure, and Cav crashing, in that order. The jury must have seen the same footage. It does look really bad and it does look deliberate.

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #140 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:40:38 pm »
https://streamable.com/j7gqb

When I first saw the overhead shot, the elbow looked extremely blatant and I agreed with the decision, but this makes it a lot more muddled. A DQ is too harsh.

Interesting vid. From where I'm sitting, for the duration of the [start of the] vid Cav is in a straight line and Sagan moves into him. The action has taken place before the "commentary" (Cav's head). It does look like the rest is all about Sagan staying up on the bike though. Difficult to measure the precise angle from my armchair, but I won't let that stop me.

(X Post with P Walsh)

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #141 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:46:00 pm »
There are two moves of Sagan's elbow.  The first (smaller one) may be involuntary balancing, but the second (larger) is deliberate blocking.  Sagan is an asshole - a talented cyclist but an asshole (as witnessed by his podium groping).

The judges have been braver than the pundits (including Boardman) who I think are giving him the benefit of the doubt because their job depends partly on having a working relationship with the world's best=paid cyclist.
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #142 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:46:16 pm »
Cav definitely out: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/40499580  Not that should be a surprise.
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #143 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:54:23 pm »
Very sad news, but no surprise as all the 'mood music' from both him and the team was that he was going to be out.

There are two moves of Sagan's elbow.  The first (smaller one) may be involuntary balancing, but the second (larger) is deliberate blocking.  Sagan in an asshole - a talented cyclist but an asshole (as witnessed by his podium groping).

And I think his goggles yesterday gives an inkling into a certain degree of immaturity.  Brilliant rider, but still with a lot to learn.

The judges have been braver than the pundits (including Boardman) who I think are giving him the benefit of the doubt because their job depends partly on having a working relationship with the world's best=paid cyclist.

I agree, although Sean Kelly did not hold back on his condemnation of Sagan.

Plenty of time now for Sagan to discuss new kitchen with team sponsor.

Plenty of time for Cav to reflect on what might have been, both today and later, if Sagan had not barged into him and effectively taken him down.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #144 on: 04 July, 2017, 10:56:15 pm »

If nothing else, it's a nice change to have someone kicked out for something other than a drug test...

J
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #145 on: 04 July, 2017, 11:27:52 pm »
Plenty of time now for Sagan to discuss new kitchen with team sponsor.
Well I hope Eurosport pull those fatuous adverts.

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #146 on: 04 July, 2017, 11:33:58 pm »
There are two moves of Sagan's elbow.  The first (smaller one) may be involuntary balancing, but the second (larger) is deliberate blocking.  Sagan in an asshole - a talented cyclist but an asshole (as witnessed by his podium groping).

The judges have been braver than the pundits (including Boardman) who I think are giving him the benefit of the doubt because their job depends partly on having a working relationship with the world's best=paid cyclist.

The larger elbow movement is after Cav is already going down and has nothing to do with Cav falling. The move across was clearly too much, but the elbow is not a factor at all...and hey, it's nothing that Cav himself wouldn't have done :p.

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #147 on: 04 July, 2017, 11:55:37 pm »
The larger elbow movement is after Cav is already going down and has nothing to do with Cav falling. The move across was clearly too much, but the elbow is not a factor at all...and hey, it's nothing that Cav himself wouldn't have done :p.

Sagan can't possibly have known that Cav was going to crash in the timescale that it all happened, so the intent was to block him. Why jerk your elbow out otherwise?  That's what matters - the intent.
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Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #148 on: 05 July, 2017, 01:21:24 am »
Said Demare needs to be punished too if decisions was made on consequences rather than direct action at the time.
I don't have a problem with Demare. Switching across in front of someone who you've just overtaken, and who is therefore going slower than you are, seems OK to me, and fairly risk free, provided you know where your back wheel is. It has the advantage of putting anyone who's on your wheel in the wind.
The problem arises when someone else passes the overtakee on the other side with the same idea, and you meet in the middle (see Cav and Haussler, TdS 2010)

Re: TdeF 2017
« Reply #149 on: 05 July, 2017, 01:29:03 am »
The larger elbow movement is after Cav is already going down and has nothing to do with Cav falling. The move across was clearly too much, but the elbow is not a factor at all...and hey, it's nothing that Cav himself wouldn't have done :p.

Sagan can't possibly have known that Cav was going to crash in the timescale that it all happened, so the intent was to block him. Why jerk your elbow out otherwise?  That's what matters - the intent.

Erhh,no.