TdeF 2017

[Mr Larrington]

Plenty of time now for Sagan to discuss new kitchen with team sponsor.

Well I hope Eurosport pull those fatuous adverts.

During the last but one foopball World Cup ITV were running a mobile phone ad featuring Wayne Rooney long after En-ger-lund had arrived, to public derision, back at Heathrow, so I doubt it.

Remarkably sanguine reaction from the New! IMPROVED!!1! M Cavendish, all things considered.  Cav v1.0 would have been using his one good arm to hurl toys in all directions.

[bobb]

I guess there will always be disagreement. In my opinion, Sagan didn't really do anything wrong. Cav went for a gap that just wasn't there. He has a history of doing that - but fair play to him, he's a sprinter and will take massive risks. Sagan just muscled his way onto the wheel ahead. Cav was already going down when the elbow came out and said elbow was nowhere near him.

Kicking Sagan out of the race is one of most ridiculous decisions in recent years by the commissaires and they have made plenty of them in the past....

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

..

Remarkably sanguine reaction from the New! IMPROVED!!1! M Cavendish, all things considered.  Cav v1.0 would have been using his one good arm to hurl toys in all directions.

Yes, a good performance there, well impressed. Sagan could learn a thing or two about sportsmanship.  They were doing 70km/h FFS.  That elbow was as bad as an over-the-ball or sliding tackle in footie.  Red card for deffo.

[andyoxon]

If the/an elbow didn't make contact, I wonder why Cav would keep saying in interview that he wanted to speak to PS personally about the "elbow" which he was 'confused about'..?

[Relayer]

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

When I first saw the overhead shot, the elbow looked extremely blatant and I agreed with the decision, but this makes it a lot more muddled. A DQ is too harsh.

Interesting vid. From where I'm sitting, for the duration of the [start of the] vid Cav is in a straight line and Sagan moves into him. The action has taken place before the "commentary" (Cav's head). It does look like the rest is all about Sagan staying up on the bike though. Difficult to measure the precise angle from my armchair, but I won't let that stop me.

(X Post with P Walsh)

I agree with most of this, but it looks to me that Demare starts to move away from the barriers and Cav tries to move out behind him, Sagan at the same time is going towards the barriers ... the two come together but Cav being so much smaller is the one who falls.

I cannot see Sagan's elbow making contact, and I find it hard to believe that Sagan would use his elbow deliberately other than to keep himself upright after conatct was made.

At the end of the day, they were all weaving about all over the place, accidents waiting to happen.

[Exit Stage Left]

Are the commissaires from the UCI? With UCI written all over the world champions jersey, there's plenty of room for talk of conflict of interest if Sagan stayed.

Sagan is also good for the Tour's profile, so allegations of pressure from ASO might be made. Sagan is also the best bike handler in the bunch, so his actions are more likely to be seen as intentional.

So his palmares, popularity and skill have worked against him.

[P Walsh]

..

Remarkably sanguine reaction from the New! IMPROVED!!1! M Cavendish, all things considered.  Cav v1.0 would have been using his one good arm to hurl toys in all directions.

Yes, a good performance there, well impressed. Sagan could learn a thing or two about sportsmanship.  They were doing 70km/h FFS.  That elbow was as bad as an over-the-ball or sliding tackle in footie.  Red card for deffo.

That's right. If sticking an elbow out like that is a bike handling skill it is one that I have never needed. Blatant blocking. If things like that don't get you disqualified cycle racing will look ridiculous. Again.

[Relayer]

If the/an elbow didn't make contact, I wonder why Cav would keep saying in interview that he wanted to speak to PS personally about the "elbow" which he was 'confused about'..?

I wonder why Cav didn't ask Sagan about the elbow when Sagan went over to apologise.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I look forward to the next sprint finish where everybody at the head of the peloton will be saying, "After you, sir." Because nobody should ever be obstructed from getting to the front and if that means the rider in front moving out of their way, then so be it.

[MikeFromLFE]

Are the commissaires from the UCI? With UCI written all over the world champions jersey, there's plenty of room for talk of conflict of interest if Sagan stayed.

Interesting thought. I think that this decision says more about the commissaries than Sagan. Either -as you say- removing a source of conflict, or they are (trying) to say 'we is hardnow, don't mess with us, rulez is rulez'


Tapatalk puts this signature here, not me!

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Crashes are bad for the image of cycling.  That's a bigger issue than bruised egos.

[P Walsh]

If the/an elbow didn't make contact, I wonder why Cav would keep saying in interview that he wanted to speak to PS personally about the "elbow" which he was 'confused about'..?

I wonder why Cav didn't ask Sagan about the elbow when Sagan went over to apologise.

Because he was surrounded by noise and the press and had a TV camera in his face and was in pain....

[Riggers]

In my opinion, the elbow was deliberate. Peter Sagan, in retrospect, I'm certain he regretted it, but doesn't excuse the use of it. He might try to assuage his guilt by explaining how he found himself steering towards the right-hand side but, we've all found ourselves off balance on a bike, and have had to correct it by throwing our body around. However, young mister Sagan was upright, and the elbow was not used to correct an imbalance.

The judges acted correctly, as his action endangered others riders' lives.



Sorry, I omitted to add: "Fact!"

[Russell]

I keep meaning to ask if anyone can explain the obscure film reference when Ned was holding a water melon during the tech discussion over brakes?

[T42]

In my opinion, the elbow was deliberate. Peter Sagan, in retrospect, I'm certain he regretted it, but doesn't excuse the use of it. He might try to assuage his guilt by explaining how he found himself steering towards the right-hand side but, we've all found ourselves off balance on a bike, and have had to correct it by throwing our body around. However, young mister Sagan was upright, and the elbow was not used to correct an imbalance.

The judges acted correctly, as his action endangered others riders' lives.



Sorry, I omitted to add: "Fact!"

It reminds me of Schumacher trying to take Villeneuve out at Jerez in 1997, about 40 seconds into the video.  Schumi lost all his points for the season, IIRC.

[Riggers]

I think it was visual reference to a supporter at the roadside who had an enormous upper region of the body. Sadly, Ned could only lay his hands on one watermelon, and the joke fell flat.


I think that's right. Others may disagree.

[rafletcher]

In my opinion, the elbow was deliberate. Peter Sagan, in retrospect, I'm certain he regretted it, but doesn't excuse the use of it. He might try to assuage his guilt by explaining how he found himself steering towards the right-hand side but, we've all found ourselves off balance on a bike, and have had to correct it by throwing our body around. However, young mister Sagan was upright, and the elbow was not used to correct an imbalance.

The judges acted correctly, as his action endangered others riders' lives.



Sorry, I omitted to add: "Fact!"

I too think it was the elbow that tipped the balance to the DQ. Up to that point it was just a racing accident/incident, Cav going for a gap, Sagan closing it down, albeit somewhat impetuously. I think for that the relegation / points deduction was sufficient. Yes it was a sprint, yes sprinting is dangerous, but blocking someone into the barriers would be frowned upon, although Cav seem remarkably calm about that, and certainly I don't think there was any malice in what Sagan did, including the elbow. But I can't buy the "elbow as a balance aid". And if Cav had hooked Sagan's arm with his hoods one of other of them would have mentioned it.

ETA: Whatever, the spectacle will be diminished, and Cav was looking good.

[trekker12]

I agree with the spectacle comment rafletcher

I think the uci or tdf have scored a significant own goal. Two world champions and star attractions of our sport are gone. Alright falls happen and people get injured. There is not much Cav can do about that but to then boot out the current world champion will make the green jersey contest somewhat meaningless. I think the penalty is too draconian.

The route clearly tried to encourage pure sprinters with more flat finishes than in recent years to give the green jersey some excitement and it seems to me it was all for nothing.

With the 80 point penalty it would have been interesting to see if Sagan tried to come from behind.

We've all been robbed.

[citoyen]

Cav's clearly on Demare's wheel

Yes and no... A few moments before the crash, Cav was very close behind Demare, but it looked to me like Demare was pulling away from him. Never mind the slow motion replays, watching it live as it happened, it was clear that Cav was losing ground, and therefore out of the race even before the crash.

Now, I don't know how close you have to be at that speed for it to count as being 'on the wheel', nor how much of a gap there has to be before it's considered enough space for another rider to move into it, but it was apparently enough of a gap that Sagan didn't see him there when he started to jump across onto Demare's wheel.

As Cav and Sagan came together, there was a bit of a lean from Cav and an elbow out from Sagan. I didn't see any malice in it, just the usual sprinters' argy-bargy with riders fighting for position. Had they not been hard up against the barriers, it might not have ended so badly for Cav. (compare and contrast Bouhanni, who had space to his left to swerve into when Demare cut across him.)

That was my initial reaction when watching it live, and none of the slow motion replays or alternative camera angles have made me change my mind.

I think the DQ is harsh, but I'm glad it wasn't my decision to make - bit of a no-win situation for the jury with so many pundits, DS and riders having their say, all with conflicting opinions.

The cynic in me would like to point out that two significant entrants in the green jersey contest are out of the way and a Frenchman got a stage win and lots of points

The realist in me says that Cav was never a contender for the green jersey in this year's race.

[Mr Larrington]

The realist in me says that Cav was never a contender for the green jersey in this year's race.

No-one was a contender for the green jersey apart from CP Sagan, as long as he actually reached Paris.  I don't think there was any kind of conspiracy on the part of the Blazers, but I'm sure the murkier corners of the internet will be blaming it on a mashup of the Illuminati, MI5 and Erik Zabel before today's rollout.

[citoyen]

No-one was a contender for the green jersey apart from CP Sagan, as long as he actually reached Paris.

Indeed.

  I don't think there was any kind of conspiracy on the part of the Blazers, but I'm sure the murkier corners of the internet will be blaming it on a mashup of the Illuminati, MI5 and Erik Zabel before today's rollout.

I blame Adboujaparov.

[Riggers]

I blame Adboujaparov.


Citters? Are you typing with your knuckles again!!?

[citoyen]

I blame Adboujaparov.


Citters? Are you typing with your knuckles again!!?

If there's a crash in the final few hundred metres, it's usually a safe bet that it's Abdou's fault.

[trekker12]

Or a Gendarme taking photographs

[Clare]

Do Watchfinder also sponsor the slow cycling movement?