Author Topic: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc  (Read 9800 times)

Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« on: 12 August, 2018, 06:04:22 am »
I see this has appeared in the news

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708

Any ideas why we dont just use 'manslaughter' rather than 'causing death by dangerous driving, riding' etc when a road user kills another road user?.

Personally im all for people being held accountable for their actions on the road, regardless of their chosen mode of transport, fewer laws but properly applied.

A

Torslanda

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #1 on: 12 August, 2018, 06:12:23 am »
Because rich tourists might be less inclined to visit if ...
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #2 on: 12 August, 2018, 07:48:23 am »
Laws like that will result in cycling becoming more dangerous. The publicity around it results in cyclists being seen as a danger to others and therefore something to be got rid of, so aggression from drivers will be increased by it. There will be more policing laws designed for cars, worse infrastructure as councils don't want to spend money on facilities used by cyclists who are seen a criminals. Reducing cycling numbers will make cycling more dangerous, as has happened in places with mandatory helmet laws.

The primary aim of the law won't work. There are already laws about causing death by dangerous driving, but no-one driving ever does anything that they think will cause a crash or they wouldn't do it, so it non-crashing behaviour that is dangerous has to be legislated against. Killing someone with while cycling is going to hurt the cyclist, so everyone does their best to avoid it anyhow.

The article says
Quote
Department for Transport figures for 2016 show that 448 pedestrians were killed on Britain's roads, but only three cases involved bicycles.
Apart from the Charlie Alison / Kim Briggs case, there has been little publicity for anyone killed by a cyclist recently, so does a case "involving bicycles" also include cases where a pedestrian was hit by a motor vehicle and a bicycle was also there, like in the Uber crash?
Quote from: Kim
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T42

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #3 on: 12 August, 2018, 08:53:29 am »
Any ideas why we dont just use 'manslaughter' rather than 'causing death by dangerous driving, riding' etc when a road user kills another road user?.

A not-so-subconscious desire to stigmatize cyclists?

Lots of nuances: https://www.lawtonslaw.co.uk/resources/what-is-the-sentence-for-manslaughter-how-many-years-could-you-face-in-prison/
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #4 on: 12 August, 2018, 09:24:52 am »
I think that taking a step back and looking at the reasons for this would be beneficial.

This is the "work" of a gentleman whose wife was killed by a cyclist (enough discussion elsewhere about the actual incident)

Apparently he was  told that there was no law under which the cyclist could be prosecuted and after consultation, that the best they could do was to charge him with "wanton and furious cycling" under section 35 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 (drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving):

"Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years ..."

The sentence is also out of line with a motorist committing the same offence.

I can sympathise with him and see why if it was my wife then I would be keen to see a structured current law that enabled an appropriate prosecution.

Having said that the law has been used against motorists where the offence has been outside the limits of normal prosecution (private land etc)

The consultation document is here

g8iln

Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #5 on: 12 August, 2018, 09:46:46 am »
I think that taking a step back and looking at the reasons for this would be beneficial.

This is the "work" of a gentleman whose wife was killed by a cyclist (enough discussion elsewhere about the actual incident)

Apparently he was  told that there was no law under which the cyclist could be prosecuted and after consultation, that the best they could do was to charge him with "wanton and furious cycling" under section 35 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 (drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving):

"Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years ..."

The sentence is also out of line with a motorist committing the same offence.

I can sympathise with him and see why if it was my wife then I would be keen to see a structured current law that enabled an appropriate prosecution.

Having said that the law has been used against motorists where the offence has been outside the limits of normal prosecution (private land etc)

The consultation document is here

The statistics are: 2016, 3 pedestrians killed in accidents with cyclists but note that blame was not assigned specifically to the cyclists involved, last year 9 people died from being hit by mobility scooters, plus how many road users have been injured by the actions of pedestrians? If there is a new law specifically for cyclists it seems only logical that all other users of highways and footways should be treated the same way.

SoreTween

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #6 on: 12 August, 2018, 10:05:39 am »
There's something rather absent in the consultation....

Sure enough at the foot of the consultation is a link to the consultation principles,
Quote
Give enough information to ensure that those consulted understand the issues and can give informed responses.

There's no statistics given relating to most of the questions (and where they are given they are flawed).  How can I give an informed response as to, for example, whether fines for drunk cycling are failing without knowing a) how often fines are issued and b) how often the cyclist involved in a death by cycling incident were drunk?

The whole thing is a Daily Mail side bar poll.
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There is only one infinite resource in this universe; human stupidity.

Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #7 on: 12 August, 2018, 02:03:59 pm »
This is the "work" of a gentleman whose wife was killed by a cyclist (enough discussion elsewhere about the actual incident)

...

I can sympathise with him and see why if it was my wife then I would be keen to see a structured current law that enabled an appropriate prosecution.

Whilst I can sympathise his loss it was ultimately his wives negligence that resulted in the collision causing her death.

Though my opinion may be biased given that I've recently been involved in a cyclist on pedestrian collision which was caused by a pedestrians negligence. A collision we were both lucky to walk away from.

Had I died as a result would he have been charged with manslaughter or death by dangerous walking?

T42

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #8 on: 12 August, 2018, 03:08:01 pm »
The statistics are: 2016, 3 pedestrians killed in accidents with cyclists but note that blame was not assigned specifically to the cyclists involved, last year 9 people died from being hit by mobility scooters, plus how many road users have been injured by the actions of pedestrians? If there is a new law specifically for cyclists it seems only logical that all other users of highways and footways should be treated the same way.

Nobody I have heard of objects to mobility scooters but there's a large lobby/community/herd/mob who are enraged by the very existence of cyclists, so while three deaths caused by or involving cyclists are grist to the anti-cyclist mill, mobility scooters could kill ten times as many and no-one would bat an eyelid.
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Andrij

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #9 on: 12 August, 2018, 03:19:39 pm »
...
Though my opinion may be biased given that I've recently been involved in a cyclist on pedestrian collision which was caused by a pedestrians negligence. A collision we were both lucky to walk away from.

Had I died as a result would he have been charged with manslaughter or death by dangerous walking?

Neither, as killing a cyclist is only ever an accident.
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

Martin

Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #10 on: 12 August, 2018, 03:59:38 pm »
This is bollocks; it was a knee jerk reaction to the knob-end who killed a woman, because furious cycling only carries a 2 year maximum sentence and those braying for blood wanted a longer sentence;

in the end he got less than 2 years, move on

Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #11 on: 12 August, 2018, 04:11:30 pm »
In reply to the original question: the offence of causing death by dangerous driving was brought in because juries were reluctant to convict manslaughter charges. The offence of causing death by careless driving was brought in because of juries’ reluctance to convict death by dangerous driving.

There is a good explanation of this on the cycling silk blog from last year, following the infamous case mentioned above.

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com
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rogerzilla

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #12 on: 12 August, 2018, 08:18:50 pm »
It's a good reason not to use cyclepaths, since that's where you're most likely to hit a pedestrian.  Or is that off-road and not covered by the proposed law?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

ian

Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #13 on: 13 August, 2018, 10:14:36 am »
This is the "work" of a gentleman whose wife was killed by a cyclist (enough discussion elsewhere about the actual incident)

...

I can sympathise with him and see why if it was my wife then I would be keen to see a structured current law that enabled an appropriate prosecution.

Whilst I can sympathise his loss it was ultimately his wives negligence that resulted in the collision causing her death.

Though my opinion may be biased given that I've recently been involved in a cyclist on pedestrian collision which was caused by a pedestrians negligence. A collision we were both lucky to walk away from.

Had I died as a result would he have been charged with manslaughter or death by dangerous walking?

Referring back to the case, there were complicating factors, mostly summed up by the fact that he was twat who rather than slowed down, attempted a manoeuvre that led to the woman's death. Pedestrians step out into the road, I think it's my responsibility as a cyclist to be in a position to avoid them even if that inconveniences me. It would be nice if drivers would adopt the same philosophy.

I don't blame the husband for chasing this, of course (though it would be nice if he'd put his efforts into road safety in general), but the chap got a significant sentence for his crime, disproportionate considering that if he'd hit her in car he'd probably not have even been prosecuted. Probably, ha. He'd just have to claim he didn't see her and it would be accepted. Another sad accident.

The problem with consultations is that they're really just platforms for people to document their particular prejudices rather than soliciting evidence and expertise to base decisions and policy on.

Of course, they're investing time and effort in something that will rarely if ever be used, and does nothing to improve road safety. Of course, it doesn't antagonise drivers – that poor entitled majority – which is probably the point, because if they really cared about road safety, well, they'd have to, wouldn't they?

quixoticgeek

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #14 on: 13 August, 2018, 01:38:23 pm »
It's a good reason not to use cyclepaths, since that's where you're most likely to hit a pedestrian.  Or is that off-road and not covered by the proposed law?

Believe it or not, the carriage way, the footway (if parallel to the carriage way and within 14 yards of the carriage way), and the cycle way, are all considered the same road. So if you have a large road with a carriage way, a cycle lane, and a footway, and it has a smaller road coming in from the left, and the car in the carriage way wants to turn left, the cyclist in the cycle lane, and the pedestrian on the footway have right of way, and can walk or cycle straight across the smaller road, and the car turning left, plus any cars on the smaller road have to give way. This is why it's utter madness that you get many cycle lanes where you have to give way at every T junction, rather than the continuous cycle way that you get here in the civilised world.

It is also worth noting that the UK highway code explicitly says that if you are doing more than 17mph, you should consider using the carriage way instead on safety grounds. UK cycle lanes and cycle paths are non compulsory, unlike much of the continent (Germany being a curious exception of dubious gray areas, resulting in much shouty motorists).

Referring back to the case, there were complicating factors, mostly summed up by the fact that he was twat who rather than slowed down, attempted a manoeuvre that led to the woman's death. Pedestrians step out into the road, I think it's my responsibility as a cyclist to be in a position to avoid them even if that inconveniences me. It would be nice if drivers would adopt the same philosophy.

This is one of the arguments in favour of adopting primary position rather than hugging the gutter. It gives you more space to maneuver.

As a cyclist (and a motorist) is is your duty to be aware of your surroundings and read the road ahead, you need to be able to look ahead and make the judgement, what if that kid runs out after their ball, what if that pedestrian wants to cross, etc... This is why many advise you cover your brake levers in built up areas. It's why on street parking is the devils work (too many places for hidden small people to run from). This is why the theory test has the hazard perception test. It's also why most drivers drive way to fast for the conditions...

For both cyclists and motorists brakes have improved greatly, and for many with fully functioning brakes you can stop very very very fast. But while your brakes have improved, reaction time goes up with age, which can in many cases off set the technological improvements. Some car manufacturers have tried to find solutions to this with auto braking functions. But I wouldn't rely solely on them.

Quote

I don't blame the husband for chasing this, of course (though it would be nice if he'd put his efforts into road safety in general), but the chap got a significant sentence for his crime, disproportionate considering that if he'd hit her in car he'd probably not have even been prosecuted. Probably, ha. He'd just have to claim he didn't see her and it would be accepted. Another sad accident.

The nasty party^W^W tories put out an advert on twitter that they were doing a consultation on cracking down on dangerous cyclists, saying they wanted to bring it in line with motorists. This was widely greated by cycling twitter as a good thing, as it would reduce the possible sentence for all cyclists... I don't think that was the tories aim.

Quote
The problem with consultations is that they're really just platforms for people to document their particular prejudices rather than soliciting evidence and expertise to base decisions and policy on.

Agreed. See the CS9 and CS11 consultations for text book examples of this.

Quote

Of course, they're investing time and effort in something that will rarely if ever be used, and does nothing to improve road safety. Of course, it doesn't antagonise drivers – that poor entitled majority – which is probably the point, because if they really cared about road safety, well, they'd have to, wouldn't they?

If they cared about road safety they would go for the simple acts of:

a) change the default liability in the case of an accident

b) teach vulnerable road user awareness (including cyclists), in the driving education process

c) Teach The dutch reach door opening setup.

d) Fund a big advertising campaign about how to over take cyclists, aka the education element of Op close pass.


J
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mattc

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #15 on: 13 August, 2018, 04:21:35 pm »
QG: does your first para need a "here in the Netherlands" added somewhere to clarify it for us UK readers? I may be wrong ...

[agree with most of your post otherwise  :thumbsup: ]
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quixoticgeek

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #16 on: 13 August, 2018, 04:47:34 pm »
QG: does your first para need a "here in the Netherlands" added somewhere to clarify it for us UK readers? I may be wrong ...

[agree with most of your post otherwise  :thumbsup: ]

No, that is the status of UK law. Dutch law also works the same, tho I think the 14m thing may not apply here.

J
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #17 on: 13 August, 2018, 04:52:00 pm »
QG: does your first para need a "here in the Netherlands" added somewhere to clarify it for us UK readers? I may be wrong ...

[agree with most of your post otherwise  :thumbsup: ]

No, that is the status of UK law. Dutch law also works the same, tho I think the 14m thing may not apply here.

J
You're right about the definition of road but not priority (right of way strictly means something rather different).
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quixoticgeek

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #18 on: 13 August, 2018, 04:56:50 pm »
You're right about the definition of road but not priority (right of way strictly means something rather different).

You sure?

HC 170:

"watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way"

Tho you am right about getting the term priority and right of way wrong.

J
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #19 on: 13 August, 2018, 05:05:13 pm »
That one starts "you should". It's advice. Which unfortunately almost everyone ignores. If there were a law to back it up, it would start "you must." Because UK, unlike some countries (but I've no idea whether NL is one of them), has no overarching priority law such as "give way to the right," priority at each junction is situational. So if your cycle lane has give way markings at the junction with a side road, the side road has priority. Which is pretty shit, but there you go.
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Kim

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #20 on: 13 August, 2018, 05:06:28 pm »
And of course pedestrians who have yet to set foot on the road have no priority.

quixoticgeek

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #21 on: 13 August, 2018, 05:08:33 pm »
That one starts "you should". It's advice. Which unfortunately almost everyone ignores. If there were a law to back it up, it would start "you must." Because UK, unlike some countries (but I've no idea whether NL is one of them), has no overarching priority law such as "give way to the right," priority at each junction is situational. So if your cycle lane has give way markings at the junction with a side road, the side road has priority. Which is pretty shit, but there you go.

Ah, my bad.

NL is one of those countries.

The design of a cycle lane/path coming to a side road and having give way markings wouldn't meet the design standards for .nl. It really shouldn't be allowed in .uk. The whole having to stop every 50m to give way is just silly.

J
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #22 on: 13 August, 2018, 05:13:53 pm »
And of course pedestrians who have yet to set foot on the road carriageway have no priority.
FTFY  :D
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #23 on: 13 August, 2018, 05:16:40 pm »
The design of a cycle lane/path coming to a side road and having give way markings wouldn't meet the design standards for .nl. It really shouldn't be allowed in .uk. The whole having to stop every 50m to give way is just silly.

J
Lots of UK cyclepaths don't meet the design standards for UK. In fact we're generally pretty crap at enforcing and adhering to our own standards in lots of things (and that's before we even think about moral standards  ::-)). And yes it is extremely silly.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

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Re: Manslaughter vs Death by dangerous etc
« Reply #24 on: 13 August, 2018, 05:19:27 pm »
Lots of UK cyclepaths don't meet the design standards for UK. In fact we're generally pretty crap at enforcing and adhering to our own standards in lots of things (and that's before we even think about moral standards  ::-)). And yes it is extremely silly.

The Uk has design standards? <GD&R>

Did you hear about the speed bump installed on CS6, that didn't comply with UK rules (needs to be at least 900mm) fortunately enough cyclists screaming means they have now removed it. I would like to know wtf the original person who spec'd it was thinking...

J
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