The Primary Position.

[Zoidburg]

The issue is that CC is touted by some as a perfect system, it falls down because it assumes that drivers play by the rules as well. They do not. Maybe it is time to introduce the CC chaps to real world cycling? 
 

Not at all, Cyclecraft is *far* from assuming that drivers play by the rules.  This is exactly the sort of thing I meant when I suggested you might be misinterpreting the book.

That's not to say I don't assert my right to the road, but I do it in a different way. A calmer, more hippie way. When I need space I take it, when I don't, I don't make a fuss about asserting my position, and ride kinda closeish to the left.

Probably what has made the biggest difference to me is taking more time at junctions. Sitting 2-4 cars back in the queue, and not using my ability to filter at all opportunities.

These comments from JrG on how he rides now is pretty much pure Cyclecraft, IMO, as well as along the teachings in bikeability.

Cyclecraft isn't strict, nor is it strictly primary, and nor is it about stopping someone overtaking you.  Instead it's about discouraging all but the most stupid overtakes, and leaving you enough room to deal with the few bad ones calmly and coolly.  It's defo not about thinking "you blunt, you overtook me 10m before a queue".  Incorrect assumptions by you guys, sorry. 

So if we have this correctly - anything that goes wrong is the fault of us as cyclists because we are to thick to understand cyclecraft, yet anything that goes well is a result of the blessed book of cyclecraft and it's correct interpretation?

Talk about political spin.

You can't go picking apart an individuals cycling technique and just assume that they are doing X, Y or Z wrong.

The book can stay at the back of the cupboard, along with the bible, I sense a familiar preachy tone to both of them.

[Biggsy]

Cyclecraft contains loads of sensible practical advice - that I would recommend to anyone - and it's actually quite flexible if you read it all.

No of course you can't blame everything that goes wrong on the cyclist, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of cyclists who put themselves in too much danger.  It is particularly those who always ride close past parked cars, and right at the edge of a side turning with emerging cars, etc, who need to read Cyclecraft (and any other similar advice).

If you're going to leave the book in the cupboard then don't criticise it.  If you want to criticise it, read it again so you be precise and accurate in your criticism.  Otherwise we don't really know what you're talking about.

[fred the great]

Notwithstanding CC which I have never seen or read, cycling on the roads requires every road user  to use common sense and care.

Quite simple really

Primary, secondary, the third I ask you. The Driver behind you will decide what he thinks he can do but at least make sure he knows your intended actions so that he can avoid you

Don't take up a central position for example to stop any attempt to pass you. That just irritates people.

[Biggsy]

I didn't find it quite so simple. It took me years to realise what to do and to gain the confidence to do it.  That was before I had heard of Cyclecraft or before it was written.  I had to learn the hard way by making potentially fatal mistakes, whereas new cyclists today have more information and encouragement to give them a head start.

For example, you should take up a central position to disuade an attempt to pass when it would be dangerous to be passed otherwise, for example through a road narrowing.  It may irritate some people, and yes there is a danger from that, but the alternative is often more dangerous.

[fred the great]

I most certainly do not agree with purposeful confrontation hence at least attempt to convey to the driver what you are doing. If it's a pinch point ahead he should understand.

If your putting yourself at greater risk just wave him to pass you or even stop if he is that near.

As I said it's just a case of common sense and care and it's served me well for more than 60 years of cycling

[simonp]

I got sideswiped by a car, just before a road narrowing, when I was cycling at 25mph in a 30mph limit, because I wasn't in primary.

Lesson learned.

[Wendy]

It's nothing about spin or bias Zoiders.  It's about interpretation and application of Cyclecraft.  Bear in mind I've spent a lot of time on the book, and I've done the bikeability cycle instructor course.

I think JrG's example shows best what I think you've done, but I am only guessing since we can't see your riding for real.  JrG thought he was riding very cyclecraft, had a bunch of problems, and decided to stop riding for a while.  He then returned to riding some time later, mentally chucked away his own image of what he thought Cyclecraft meant, and described his new riding.  His new description sounds much more cyclecraft based than his original methodology.

It's all about sharing the road, give and take, making it easy for other vehicles to pass you, join in the queue, and otherwise help their journeys.  It's also about asserting your presence and road space when you really need it for your own safety, and then again ceding space when possible.

[Jakob]

Riding in traffic is about taking control and having unspoken negotiations with drivers. Showing that you know what you are doing and you are fully aware of your impact on other road users, and their impact on you.

That is exactly it. Give way when you can and take space when you need it. Show that  you respect (not fear) them and their right to be on the road and it will be returned. I firmly believe this is why I never had any problems with professional drivers (bar bus drivers) in London. Twice, maybe, I have been cut up by a black cab and in the last couple of years, even bus drivers have become far better trained. I make my road positioning clear, I make my intentions clear and if I can, I make space for them, even when I don't have to.
I sometimes ride in the gutter (and get passed closely) and I sometimes ride on the far side of the lane.

Now, this is London (And to some extent also here in Vancouver), where people are used to a lot of cyclists. I can't remember where Zoidburg lives, but I accept that there is areas where you will just get abused if you try to take your space.

[Biggsy]

I most certainly do not agree with purposeful confrontation hence at least attempt to convey to the driver what you are doing. If it's a pinch point ahead he should understand.

If your putting yourself at greater risk just wave him to pass you or even stop if he is that near.

As I said it's just a case of common sense and care and it's served me well for more than 60 years of cycling

Using the Primary position (when there is good reason) is not purposeful confrontation, it's just taking a turn at using the main part of the road to which I am entitled.

I give way to drivers and let them pass plenty of times, but I'm not going to give way at *every* place where the Secondary position would be dangerous.  I woud make incredibly slow tiring progress in London if I did that!!  It also more often causes confusion and therefore danger.  It's easier for the driver to understand what you're doing if you simply carry on.

What drivers "understand" is that they are unlikely to come to any harm if they cause a cyclist to crash.  Many of them don't care enough about the cyclist and don't give enough room - especially for any unexpected swerve - until they are virtually forced to.

It's more than a matter of common sense.  You have to learn how road users behave and how to deal with them.  We're not born with that knowledge.

[ed_o_brain]

I've just spent half an hour writing a reply and then the netbook randomly powered down! Grr.

I've just re-read part of CycleCraft. Particularly chapter 3 (in my edition) on attitude and then the long (8 page) section on positioning.

I'm inclined to agree with BM and others. What I hear John Franklin describing, particularly in terms of attitude, is the way in which Nutty and JrG both say they cycle.

JF discusses the training drivers receive, vehicle design, road design and the basic fact most drivers are not out to get us. He points out the important of our rights and responsibilities. He also discusses tolerance and what we would describe here as 'zen' etc.

He also in position talks about the 'lane of traffic' and it's fluidity. He discusses a lot of aspects which are important in positioning. And although he goes into depth on it, it's still only a small portion of the book.

JF is a meek, mature, tolerant sensible fellow. Which is exactly what I see reflected when I read CycleCraft.

I think it's worth getting the book out and reading the sections on attitude, judgement, observation. There's some bloody good stuff in there that is well relevant.

And I still do think all the stuff on positioning is bang on. For example, he suggests moving further over to the left when ascending slowly or on long straight roads with no side roads, junctions or obstructions. There is a lot of give and take in that book concerning other road users.

I do think a lot of people take primary position well out of context. I'm thinking back to my case where I was arguarbly in primary position (1 metre in from the left hand solid line demarking the hardstrip), but by no respect was in the middle of the road.

CycleCraft is a useful framework to help inform the way one cycles and facilitate the making of effective decisions in order to ride as safely as possible. It is not actually an instruction manual depicting how anyone should cycle. JF even encourages readers to make their own observations and draw on them.

Sorry for the long post.

ZB, although I've written this, I do appreciate where you are coming from. I tend to try and use every sight and sound around me to help in determining the position I ride in. I often think about producing characitures of the common types of driver I encounter and documenting their MO. Staying calm and remembering they are my equal on the road, I use this to help inform the decisions I make and stay out of trouble.

I will admit in the past I've probably on occasion held a position more assertive than necessary. But equally, the fear gets me now and then and I ride too submissively. Both lead to trouble. In fact, even sometimes getting it just right can still lead to poor outcomes as some motorists are absolute utter f*ckwits.

Just concentrate on riding your bike. Ride away from the traffic for a while if you have too. Just get back to the happy place where you enjoy it.

And in my experience your area ranks quite low on my list in terms of being nice to cycle in. I've passed through a couple of times cycling from Manchester to Telford.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Isn't John Franklin American? I've never ridden in the USA (well actually I have - but only one day around a genteel suburb of LA on a borrowed bike), but I firmly believe traffic is "cultural" - the way it behaves, its attitudes to rules, and to each other, varies from place to place (and from time to time). So possibly what's appropriate in the USA isn't appropriate in UK - I've never read the book either, so I won't say!

Certainly there are many things which are routine out here but ludicrously risky in the UK (e.g. overtaking a left-turning bus between it and the kerb - you'll have a whole queue of bicycles, motorbikes and scooters doing that here).

[ed_o_brain]

No John Franklin is not americal.

You mean John Forrester and his Vehicular Cycling. Similar school of thought though. Opposite side of the pond.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That'd be the guy I was thinking of. Never heard that title though.

[nuttycyclist]

...

And I still do think all the stuff on positioning is bang on. For example, he suggests moving further over to the left when ascending slowly or on long straight roads with no side roads, junctions or obstructions. There is a lot of give and take in that book concerning other road users.

I do think a lot of people take primary position well out of context. I'm thinking back to my case where I was arguarbly in primary position (1 metre in from the left hand solid line demarking the hardstrip), but by no respect was in the middle of the road.

CycleCraft is a useful framework to help inform the way one cycles and facilitate the making of effective decisions in order to ride as safely as possible. It is not actually an instruction manual depicting how anyone should cycle. JF even encourages readers to make their own observations and draw on them.

...

My bold.

I think these three paragraphs really sum up the misunderstanding over primary, and cyclecraft.

You've only got to search on this forum to see my annoyance with riders who block the lane.  I think I mentioned recently re an Audax where we were on lovely quiet roads yet riders insisted on being out in the middle of the road.  Cars came up quickly from behind, passed me (in the gutter) with plenty of space and no problems at all, then had to slow right down while they waited for the cyclist in the middle of the road to notice them and pull over.

I've chatted to these type of riders, many times, re their behaviour, yet they insist that they are safer in the middle of the road and that "primary" is the best place to be.


Yes cyclecraft is a good read for a new rider, but it should be used primarily (ha ha ha) as something to get the brain thinking.  It's just a good summary of experience gained through thousands of miles of cycling.   You can either learn this through practical riding, or you can get a head start by digesting the book.

[Jaded]

You've only got to search on this forum to see my annoyance with riders who block the lane.  I think I mentioned recently re an Audax where we were on lovely quiet roads yet riders insisted on being out in the middle of the road.  Cars came up quickly from behind, passed me (in the gutter) with plenty of space and no problems at all, then had to slow right down while they waited for the cyclist in the middle of the road to notice them and pull over.

My bold.

If it was a two lane road, then they could go to the other side.
If it was a single lane road then they should have slowed down anyway, on a lovely quiet road.

What I do disagree with though, is riders, having slowed a car down, not even noticing it is there. Now that is rude.

[nuttycyclist]

No central line marking, ample space for vehicles to pass, hence car being able to overtake me with lots of room.  Two or three cyclists abreast can still be passed, but a driver isn't going to rush past (bear in mind a potential lack of visibility thanks to mildly meandering roads).  One cyclist in the centre of the lane, or out near the white line where these folk seem to like to ride, is just as much of an obstruction.

Yes I agree that a car shouldn't be racing on those roads, but at the same time don't believe that a car should be trundling along at 12mph.  30mph is good enough, and if the cyclists weren't unnecessarily obstructing the road then the car can easily trundle along at 30 whilst overtaking safely.

[drossall]

I came to the conclusion that most drivers assumed cyclists were ... two dimensional

I don't think it's actually two-dimensional. Try riding a trike and you'll get noticeably more space, even though the trike is not really much wider than your shoulders were on the bike. Why would drivers give that extra space?

For me, the problem is being used to the idea that you can judge your distance from the wheels of the vehicle that you are overtaking. Somehow, it totally escapes some drivers that, on a bike, the wheels are in the middle...

[Wendy]

You've only got to search on this forum to see my annoyance with riders who block the lane.  I think I mentioned recently re an Audax where we were on lovely quiet roads yet riders insisted on being out in the middle of the road.  Cars came up quickly from behind, passed me (in the gutter) with plenty of space and no problems at all, then had to slow right down while they waited for the cyclist in the middle of the road to notice them and pull over.

When I rode with you on the Dun Run, I don't think I ever saw you riding in the gutter.  In fact from what I recall you were very cyclecraft and roadsharing kind of person.  Good riding.

Mind you, that business of making stupid overtakers look really obviously stupid by forcing them to stop on the wrong side of the centreline?    Bit naughty that, I must confess to having done it too.  Defo not good cyclecraft or good zen though.

[simonp]

Today I was out cycling with some other people.

We were in a group of 3, and singled out for a car.

The road was too narrow for the car to pass safely, so it stayed behind.  I saw a place we could pull over to let them pass, since there would be a significant delay for the car.  I mentioned this, and the lead rider said no, the road widens out ahead.

We waited.  Another possible place to pull over to pass.  Another car appeared ahead, and pulled over to let us and the oncoming car through.  It was still too narrow for the car to pass us, so now we are blocking two cars from making progress.

I was starting to get pissed off, so I decided to get ahead of the group for a bit and sprinted past.  I think from the point that the car got to us to the point where it got past was 1/2 mile, so a reduction from a sensible 30mph to a CTC 12mph or so, so probably delaying them by the best part of a minute (along with the other car).

What good did that do?  I routinely let people past even though I attempt to apply Cyclecraft.  Again, personal attitude problems should not be blamed on Cyclecraft.

[nuttycyclist]

... I don't think I ever saw you riding in the gutter.  ...


Mind you, that business of making stupid overtakers look really obviously stupid by forcing them to stop on the wrong side of the centreline?    Bit naughty that, I must confess to having done it too.  Defo not good cyclecraft or good zen though.

"riding in the gutter" was maybe an exaggeration, but used for emphasis when comparing my position to the other riders referred to.

As for the other business, completely zen     I stay on the same line as I would usually and ignore them straddling the centreline while they attempt to pass.  Yes I let them past me, but as I am doing so they are slowing for the queue.  Once they've stopped, that's when I say "oh my goodness gracious me, I don't want to queue" and cycle off 

[Wendy]

Come on Nutty, you can't seriously be trying to justify that.  You know it's wrong, I do, and so does just about everyone else on here.  There's no denying it can be fun, and I'm sure many of us have done it before.

[nuttycyclist]

Come on Nutty, you can't seriously be trying to justify that.  You know it's wrong, I do, and so does just about everyone else on here.  There's no denying it can be fun, and I'm sure many of us have done it before.

Possibly and halfheartedly.  yup, yup and yup.  yup, and probably yup.

[ed_o_brain]

The road was too narrow for the car to pass safely, so it stayed behind.  I saw a place we could pull over to let them pass, since there would be a significant delay for the car.  I mentioned this, and the lead rider said no, the road widens out ahead.

I will pull over into an empty junction, lay-by or access if it allows a driver to safely pass me when they would otherwise be inconvenienced for a longer period of time.

However, I once did this at night and picked up so many flints that it effectively ended my ride.

So now I only do it when I can see the area in which I would be pulling into is free of potential puncture causing material.

[Jaded]

ed,

I recently developed a new approach on very narrow roads when that happens - I pull over to the right and indicate to the car to undertake me, so it goes in the rough stuff.

[simonp]

Or you could do what I do, which is to pull right over to the edge of the tarmac and stop briefly.

You're on a bike, not in a car, you don't need to get right off the road, just well over to the left.  It's often possible to let people pass when there isn't even a passing place.