Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: sg37409 on 31 May, 2017, 01:28:11 pm
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40105253
Tragic news.
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Indeed.
RIP.
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Especially awful when you read this report from 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-32899109
:(
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:demon:
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Predictable, preventable, dreadful.
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...and probably foreseen, like Ford Pinto gas tank failures.
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Especially awful when you read this report from 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-32899109
Though today's accident wasn't at the Haymarket blackspot.
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Especially awful when you read this report from 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-32899109
Though today's accident wasn't at the Haymarket blackspot.
That junction is almost as bad.
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Awful awful awful.
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I wonder what position the vehicle was in before the cyclist was hit.
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I wonder what position the vehicle was in before the cyclist was hit.
The implication from a Scottish newspaper article (I followed a link from road.cc) is that the cyclist fell from an adjacent lane into the lane the bus was travelling in. While bad driving is often a contributory factor (if not the direct cause) of cycling injuries/fatalities, it doesn't appear to be case in this circumstance.
Terrible road design/execution on the other hand.... :(
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There is no adjacent lane there. There is only 1 lane which goes west from princes street across the foot of Lothian road. The tram rails are in this lane.
The road design is very poor for sure, but in this instance its the bad driving which I think is mostly to blame.
The bike was under the rear wheels of the bus. How close / inattentive would you need to be not to see a cyclist falling in front of you and then driving over them. I'm sickened by this.
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I yield to your greater knowledge on the road layout.
Stopping distance (for a car) at 20mph is 12m. https://www.drivingtestsuccess.com/pages/stopping-distances-and-the-theory-test
How many drivers drive either at 20mph or further away than 12m? Far too few. :(
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Now that we have had trams in the UK for number of years I'm curious to know how our 'accident rate' compares to our European cousins where trams are, and have been for decades, very common in thier city centres.
The question them follows, if thier accident rate is lower than ours, why?
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There is no adjacent lane there. There is only 1 lane which goes west from princes street across the foot of Lothian road. The tram rails are in this lane.
The road design is very poor for sure, but in this instance its the bad driving which I think is mostly to blame.
The bike was under the rear wheels of the bus. How close / inattentive would you need to be not to see a cyclist falling in front of you and then driving over them. I'm sickened by this.
Yes, from looking at the photos of the vehicle positions after the incident and from streetview, its hard to see how it could be anything but a case of the minibus being too close to the cyclist, either not leaving sufficient stopping distance or passing too close at a narrow section of road.
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There is no adjacent lane there. There is only 1 lane which goes west from princes street across the foot of Lothian road. The tram rails are in this lane.
The road design is very poor for sure, but in this instance its the bad driving which I think is mostly to blame.
The bike was under the rear wheels of the bus. How close / inattentive would you need to be not to see a cyclist falling in front of you and then driving over them. I'm sickened by this.
That's what I thought, but I also thought that there would be little chance of it being viewed this way by investigators.
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Now that we have had trams in the UK for number of years I'm curious to know how our 'accident rate' compares to our European cousins where trams are, and have been for decades, very common in thier city centres.
The question them follows, if thier accident rate is lower than ours, why?
I don't think ANY of our continental cousins route cyclists between tram tracks EVER for starters....
Cyclists are mostly routed away from tram lines and otherwise cross these at right angles.
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I don't think younger people necessarily have any awareness of the danger of train and tram lines until they have experienced something bad on them. My own daughter didn't suss out she couldn't mount the dropped curb of someone's drive at angle until she tried it. I think that was the last time she rode her bike.
Since cycling requires no driving licence, it seems absurd the road layout would require some knowledge of what happens when wheel gets pulled off line into a groove to stay alive. :'(
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Since cycling requires no driving licence, it seems absurd the road layout would require some knowledge of what happens when wheel gets pulled off line into a groove to stay alive.
And the corollary is equally true - since the driving test doesn't include a practical cycling proficiency test, drivers may well be unaware of the danger that trams tracks present to cyclists.
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Since cycling requires no driving licence, it seems absurd the road layout would require some knowledge of what happens when wheel gets pulled off line into a groove to stay alive.
And the corollary is equally true - since the driving test doesn't include a practical cycling proficiency test, drivers may well be unaware of the danger that trams tracks present to cyclists.
Never mind, if they stick to the advised allowing a whole car's width when overtaking they won't run over a cyclist who falls off in such a way anyway.
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Never mind, if they stick to the advised allowing a whole car's width when overtaking they won't run over a cyclist who falls off in such a way anyway.
I very much doubt that the bus was attempting to overtake the cyclist at that location.
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I don't think younger people necessarily have any awareness of the danger of train and tram lines until they have experienced something bad on them. My own daughter didn't suss out she couldn't mount the dropped curb of someone's drive at angle until she tried it. I think that was the last time she rode her bike.
I think there's truth in this. Most people who aren't of an engineering mindset or taught about the dangers of specific cases only learn this sort of thing through practical experience. Given the wrong kind of good luck, their first practical experience might be the last one they ever have.
Same goes for the hazard of left-turning HGVs.
FWIW I've ridden amongst trams in various cities, and find that the tram drivers themselves seem to be aware that cyclists might spontaneously fall over (or take unintuitive routes to cross lines perpendicularly) and usually leave a decent amount of stopping room. It's the general motorists that are the problem. I'm not sure what Europeans do substantially differently, other than perhaps less motor traffic on city centre tram routes.
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Never mind, if they stick to the advised allowing a whole car's width when overtaking they won't run over a cyclist who falls off in such a way anyway.
I very much doubt that the bus was attempting to overtake the cyclist at that location.
Depending on where exactly it happened (I haven't seen any detail other than that BBC report), I wouldn't be so certain. I'm fairly sure I've been overtaken by a bus, not just a minibus, between the end of Princes St and Shandwick Place.
(I ride there I infrequently enough that I can't really remember the details, mind.)
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"Cyclist hit by minibus" just isn't newsworthy. :(
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I do think tram lines in streets are a bit like slavery and hanging; relics of a less enlightened past*. Surely by now there is a technologival solution?
Of course there is (stiff flaps over the grooves), but it's presumably not worth the money to save a few lives.
*UKIP members may want to look away
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"Cyclist hit by minibus" just isn't newsworthy. :(
I don't know if it's been changed but the OP's linked article is titled "Cyclist dies after being hit by minibus following Edinburgh tram track fall".
Which is actually more accurate than the misleading "Cyclist killed after fall on tram tracks" title of this thread.
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2015 article: "Tram fall cyclists to sue Edinburgh council"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30951833
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/80467000/png/_80467843_tram.png)
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/80474000/png/_80474170_tram2.png)
WTF?!
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WTF?!
Well, quite. Princes Street to Shandwick Place used to be two lanes (https://goo.gl/maps/KgF4afakK192); once past the West End the nearside lane became a bus lane.
When the tram track was installed, the pedestrian islands and the footway at the junction were widened (https://goo.gl/maps/5Mw97hetCYS2), westbound lanes on Princes Street were narrowed slightly to form a central reservation, and westbound traffic through the junction was confined to a single lane that is for use only by buses, taxis and cyclists, along with trams. The advice provided and the opportunities to more comprehensively reengineer the junction to include cyclists were sidelined at best, more likely ignored.
Surely by now there is a technologival solution? Of course there is (stiff flaps over the grooves), but it's presumably not worth the money to save a few lives.
Not commonly realised is how overbuilt Edinburgh's on-road tram sections are, compared with installations elsewhere. This is because of the density of buses using the same bit of road. The forces that are regularly and frequently applied to the tram rails and the trackbed by bus wheels are huge, sufficient to rip out the rubber infill between rail and tarmac, and repeatedly breaking the concrete sections along Shandwick Place and Princes Street. Flexible rubber or plastic inserts in the rail groove would also be destroyed in short order. Remember, too, that Edinburgh's generally superb bus service has a great many routes converging along Princes Street, and the alternatives are to despoil George Street or displace Princes Street shopping passengers to Queen Street.
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2015 article: "Tram fall cyclists to sue Edinburgh council"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30951833
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/80467000/png/_80467843_tram.png)
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/80474000/png/_80474170_tram2.png)
WTF?!
How they get away with it in the first picture is baffling! No cyclist in their right mind would cross over at that angle!
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http://pedalonparliament.org/marking-the-death-of-zhi-min-soh/
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The situation in the top photo is crazy. It reminds me of two already bad situations compounded. The first is some cycle lanes which expect you to ride at all times absolutely parallel to and very close to the kerb, even following it through right-angle turns (and, though not relevant here, through the door zone). The second is the mess of old train and crane tracks on the docks in Bristol, where cycling is now banned because of the number of falls, despite there being no vehicular traffic of any sort. (I'm not sure if the ban has legal force but it's not a road anyway.) Put the two in one place and it's just stupid.
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Scene: Edinburgh city council meeting after presentation.
Planner: OK, that is the final plan for the tram system. We think it's GREAT!
Insignificant council member: What about cyclists?
Planner: Oh shit. Order more paint?
Mayor: Now it's great.
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Any of the Edinburgh Council tram meetings would be far more surreal than that.
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Now that we have had trams in the UK for number of years I'm curious to know how our 'accident rate' compares to our European cousins where trams are, and have been for decades, very common in thier city centres.
The question them follows, if thier accident rate is lower than ours, why?
I don't think ANY of our continental cousins route cyclists between tram tracks EVER for starters....
Cyclists are mostly routed away from tram lines and otherwise cross these at right angles.
My only experience of tram-tracks on my bike was in Antwerp last August. I was very tired (as in 900km tired), but luckily was following some locals (and some other foolish Brits).
We traversed the city almost entirely on cycle-routes (apart from the fab tunnel under the river!). Traffic was hugely respectful, so although it was unpleasantly busy (Monday lunch-ish?), it was mainly pretty safe.
But I'm almost certain we had to cross some tram-tracks at odd angles. The locals mainly bunny-hopped them! I suspect non-audax/roady riders don't use this tactic. Anyway we all stayed upright, perhaps because it was a bone dry day.
/anecdata
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That's similar to my experience of the ones in Ghent: The tracks were every bit as hazardous as British ones, but the probability of having an impatient motorist hanging on your wheel was much lower. I expect that cyclists do fall off on the tram tracks from time to time, but lower cycling speeds and less risk of being run over by a motor vehicle means less serious consequences.
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Try it on a trike!
Basle, Switzerland, half way through a 1500 mile tour. The tracks are not a great deal wider than a trike so great concentration and lower speed is needed, fortunately on a Sunday. I sank a rear wheel into a track only once and had to stop to lift it out due to the camping load. A further, narrow road section, I was able to walk because I knew it was for less than a mile and the pavement was quiet. The problem would be worse for recumbent trikes because they tend to be wider, yet probably still not wide enough the straddle a single rail in comfort.
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I can't say I've tried with tram tracks, but it's relatively easy to straddle a given line (seam in concrete, some of that nasty wooden edging you get on off-road paths, etc) on a tadpole recumbent, as you can use your feet as a visual reference (if something's under your foot, it's roughly halfway between the wheel tracks) while still seeing where you're going.
Actually getting astride the rail in the first place (and off it again) left as an exercise for the reader. :hand:
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In Croydon you'd have to survive the astonishingly awful drivers long enough to worry about the tram tracks.
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Actually getting astride the rail in the first place (and off it again) left as an exercise for the reader. :hand:
Getting over a rail is easy as long as it's only one front wheel over.
Hard lock one way to get the angle to cross the rail with one front wheel, hard lock the other way to straighten up before the back wheel crosses the rail.
All three wheels is somewhat similar.
Hardest is only two wheels crossing a rail.
I found that out in the center of Prague, where you don't only have tram rails but they are set on cobble stones to make it more "fun".
Straddling a line is easy upto around 35 mph, I do it all the time with rumble strips or cats eyes down the sides of main roads. I can do it faster but over around 35 mph I tend not to bother and just move out into the carriageway.
It's harder if it's a rumble strip with cats eyes as the amount of room needed is too wide for the trike, so I either catch the edge of the rumble strip or the odd cats eye.
Which is ok-ish at sub-10 mph but very uncomfortable at faster speeds.
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^^^^^ Out of interest I looked to see what the track width of a recumbent trike might be to allow you to straddle a line with comparative ease. I found that a Velotechnik is near to 31". This contrasts with 24-25 inches for a typical upright (upright trike width is normally described as "over hubs" because we want to know if it fits through doors. Track width depends on hub design as well as axle width.) So, my upright has about 12 inches on either side, allow 2 inches for the tram track and I have an absolute maximum of 5" either side of the tram track for a wobble factor. It seems tram track widths vary according to country and so I'm not able to say if it is easier to ride down the middle. I'd not be bothered about a rumble strip because an error just leads to discomfort, but a tram track could lead to damage and pain so I would be cautious even with almost 50 years of tricycle experience. If the trike was lightly loaded I could just lift the wheel out of the tram track without stopping, but with a camping load on it was not possible without dismounting.
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^^^^^ Out of interest I looked to see what the track width of a recumbent trike might be to allow you to straddle a line with comparative ease.
My track width on an ICE Sprint is just over 300mm from the inside of a front tyre to the outside of the back. So it's very similar to yours.
BUT .........
Being a tadpole trike, I can see where the front wheels are in relation to a rail/rumble strip and the back wheel is in line with the frame.
So it's easy to judge gaps.
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Try it on a trike!
Basle, Switzerland, half way through a 1500 mile tour. The tracks are not a great deal wider than a trike so great concentration and lower speed is needed, fortunately on a Sunday. I sank a rear wheel into a track only once and had to stop to lift it out due to the camping load. A further, narrow road section, I was able to walk because I knew it was for less than a mile and the pavement was quiet. The problem would be worse for recumbent trikes because they tend to be wider, yet probably still not wide enough the straddle a single rail in comfort.
I cycle in Basel from time to time and the tram tracks there are lethal when wet. Having come off once, simply by pedalling just a fraction too soon, with the rear tyre not quite crossing the tram track, I'm now ultra-careful and watchful of the tram tracks there.