Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => The Dark Side => Topic started by: TPMB12 on 24 April, 2018, 12:30:46 am
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Would you choose large / medium banana bags and seat pack or four ortlieb back roller classics and a bodged up terracycle low rider rack for touring?
The lowrider rack option might not fit the recumbent I have. They don't make one for my hpvelotechnik streetmachine which means they'll best guess the rack and fittings that might work. It could cost $160 upwards plus £100-110 for the panniers. This is potentially an expensive mistake if it doesn't work.
The radical designs banana bag options will work and give me plenty of capacity at loads of money. I think it'll cost about £350.
Secondhand bags don't come around. Bags designed for child buggies are hard to get (McClaren stopped making them) and they're not very high capacity. Dtek supposedly had some but I haven't had prices or seen them come up on his ebay site.
What would you recommend?
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Why not the proper HPVelotechnik lowrider rack? (With a kickstand on it, because it's the most stable single-side kickstand geometry I've ever encountered on a bike, and a joy to use.) No experience of the terracycle thing. Why bother when you could get the real thing? (They sold me one as a spare part when mine was damaged, no problems.)
I use four Ortliebs: Two front-rollers on the lowrider, with all the heavy stuff in them, and two back-rollers on the rear rack with all the lighter stuff. Four full-sized panniers seems like too much luggage, but YMMV[1]. I also carry a generic drybag that can be strapped to the top of the rear rack for extra room (eg. for food supplies). This decision was strongly influenced by the fact that I wanted something that could work on my upwrong too, which ruled out recumbent-specific panniers or banana bags. Banana bags have a lot going for them if you don't have the lowrider, and they do make long objects (eg. tent poles or walking poles) easy to carry.
One thing I learned early on was that you have to be a bit careful about choice of rear panniers on a Streetmachine: If the back surface of the pannier isn't sufficiently rigid, the bottom edge can curl inwards and foul the rear disc brake caliper at the lowest point of the suspension travel. I wore a hole in an Altura Orkney (since repaired and relegated to the upwrong for utility purposes) with this before switching to the Ortliebs, which sit higher on the rack and are more rigidly reinforced.
HPVelotechnik are clever: If you're cunning, you can set up the fixings on your panniers so they will fit both front and rear racks (may require swapping from left to right). This is brilliant for when I do a day ride from a campsite: I can move the smaller panniers to the rear rack to save weight and aerodynamic penalty.
[1] I've occasionally used a one or two back-rollers on the lowrider and a racktop bag on the rear rack combination, for when I'm travelling to stay somewhere overnight in order to go for a bike ride with just the rack bag. Full-sized panniers on the lowrider work fine, but bear in mind they do reduce ground clearance if Comedy Off-Roading is likely to be on the agenda.
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Why not the proper HPVelotechnik lowrider rack? (With a kickstand on it, because it's the most stable single-side kickstand geometry I've ever encountered on a bike, and a joy to use.) No experience of the terracycle thing. Why bother when you could get the real thing? (They sold me one as a spare part when mine was damaged, no problems.)
I own a secondhand GT model which HP Velotechnik, kinetic and bike fix have told me isn't compatible with the current rack sold to fit the GTe model currently being made. I bought my bike making the assumption of backwards compatibility, I mean it's just a rack that bolts on to the frame and the frame didn't look very different in terms of shape and attachment points. A reasonable assumption to make I think, but it's left me with a difficulty and expense beyond what I expected.
I'll be chief load lugger for myself, my partner and young child who's not carrying anything (unless we buy a bike fur him that can take a rack). We do that (or try to) so we balance out our cycling abilities. This was going to be the bike we got that right on. Previous trips I used a single wheel trailer that was overloaded so I struggled (well it was a front derailleur stuck on big chainring (50t down to a 11-25t cassette). The second trip was two panniers, 35 litre drybag on top, 8 litre bar bag and a huge, customs frame bag that possibly gave 10-13 litres (estimate only). I carried too little so not enough balancing out.
This bike was meant to be four ortlieb back roller classics = 80 litres all in plus something on top. BTW do you find that the seat takes away rack space on top? I thought an Altura rack bag would work because the rack top is actually quite long. It hangs half off when I tried it.
I'm starting to think it's a weekend toy now and I need a better bike for touring. I did see a very good touring upright for £500 in my size. Full front / rear bags easily coped with by that bike. £1350 new but £500 secondhand. Panorama from ridgeback.
Nope it's cheaper to get radical bags or bodge a lowrider. Just!
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I really can't see why the new streetmachine lowrider doesn't fit the old version bike. Anyone spot the reason why? It would be a £100 gamble for me to try it out.
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Why not the proper HPVelotechnik lowrider rack? (With a kickstand on it, because it's the most stable single-side kickstand geometry I've ever encountered on a bike, and a joy to use.) No experience of the terracycle thing. Why bother when you could get the real thing? (They sold me one as a spare part when mine was damaged, no problems.)
I own a secondhand GT model which HP Velotechnik, kinetic and bike fix have told me isn't compatible with the current rack sold to fit the GTe model currently being made.
Mine's a GT, too. Sounds like I got lucky, then.
I'll be chief load lugger for myself, my partner and young child who's not carrying anything (unless we buy a bike fur him that can take a rack). We do that (or try to) so we balance out our cycling abilities.
Okay, that makes sense.
BTW do you find that the seat takes away rack space on top? I thought an Altura rack bag would work because the rack top is actually quite long. It hangs half off when I tried it.
SMGT with the original one-piece HPVelotechnik seat, size medium, fully reclined. To hand I have a Carradice Prima (fits perfectly, is the rack bag I tend to use on that bike); Carradice Super C (just about fits); and an Arkel Tailrider (can be attached, but overhangs the back by about 3-4 inches and looks silly). The Tailrider is a particularly long bag, so that isn't surprising. I've not thought of the seat as being particularly restrictive on how you use the top of the rack, but I suppose it is when you compare it to the space available in front of a rack on an upright when there's a decent amount of seatpost extension.
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I really can't see why the new streetmachine lowrider doesn't fit the old version bike. Anyone spot the reason why? It would be a £100 gamble for me to try it out.
Playing with google image search, I'm struggling to see a difference from photos. The exception is the one on this page: http://www.hpvelotechnik.com/produkte/sm/gt/details_lowrider_d.html which is markedly different from all the others (and the one on my bike) - with a more triangular-looking profile and only a single tube across the bottom. I'd guess that was an older model.
Has anyone here got a SMGTE with a lowrider? We could compare measurements?
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To me it looks like they're compatible. Is it worth a punt? A lot of money if it's not compatible. I think I'm going to be hoping there's a reply to your question about GTe owners.
If there's anyone with a current model with a lowrider rack who is willing to take some measurements or would be very helpful.
From looking at the pictures the attachment points are underneath the main frame to the front and a bolt just behind the pivot point of the rear triangle on both sides of the bike (where the rear rack attaches. I suppose a measurement of the distances between these points would possibly show if my GT is the same at yours and a GTe as far as rack fitting goes. Or at least rule out an obvious difference. I just need to find a friendly GTe owner with a lowrider.
IMO the lowrider would be the best solution all round, if it works
BTW what length bolt is at the point where the rear and lowrider racks are fitted at the same location? I just wonder if the addition of the lowrider means a longer bolt.
Does the lowrider go inside or outside the rear rack at this point? It looks like the outside.
If it works a lowrider with ortlieb bags and either a drybag on top or I might buy a radical designs seatpack in large (30 litres). I like yours pack anyway because I could use it to take my work stuff with me if I commute on it later on. Plus I like the streamlined look of it over a pannier bag.
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From looking at the pictures the attachment points are underneath the main frame to the front and a bolt just behind the pivot point of the rear triangle on both sides of the bike
Interesting. On mine, the bolt that secures the racks is the same one that holds the suspension pivot together.
I suppose a measurement of the distances between these points would possibly show if my GT is the same at yours and a GTe as far as rack fitting goes. Or at least rule out an obvious difference. I just need to find a friendly GTe owner with a lowrider.
I make it about 190mm from the centre of the bolt securing the lowrider at the suspension pivot to the centre of the cross tube (12mm, like everything else) that bolts to the braze-on on the underside of the frame.
The width of the rack is something like 168mm (±2mm or so due to parallax, I can come back and measure more carefully if it's important) between the inside edges of the tubes. I couldn't get an eyeball on the exact distance between the cross-pieces the bolts attach to, but it's probably about 170mm (again, I'll measure more carefully if it's close).
BTW what length bolt is at the point where the rear and lowrider racks are fitted at the same location? I just wonder if the addition of the lowrider means a longer bolt.
If you've already got the rear rack, then it's only adding about 2mm each side. The lowrider sits outside the rear rack stay. The cross-piece the bolt attaches to on the lowrider is hollow, and drilled so the bolt head sits inside it, so it's only the single thickness of the aluminium that's added under the bolt.
I'm not going to remove the bolt and measure it though, because it was a complete nightmare to get everything lined up when I replaced my broken lowrider. I think my rear rack stays are slightly bent from some crash or other, and you're fighting gravity on several different parts to hold it all together to get the bolt in. It took barakta and I about half an hour and quite a lot of swearing to do it. On the plus side, if you don't break the lowrider by using the kickstand to support the laden bike on a moving train[1], it's something you're only likely to have to do once.
[1] I think that's what did it. Or possibly someone sitting astride the bike while it was on the stand. Hard to tell with aluminium.
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You know I think you're right about the rear rack bolt being on the pivot point.
When did it get the replacement lowrider? Was it recent, as in after the GTe model had come out?
Also, I think my recumbent is from about 1992 sort of time but that's only what a guy online thought based on the colour of it. Something about the new colour options or other feature hit changed in 1992 (or was it 2002?). What sort of year does yours date from? I wonder if there's any differences between early and late model GT bikes.
BTW thanks for your help and comments about this. I really appreciate it. You could be saving me money.
Something strange about banana bag pricing I've noticed. Kinetic do the hpv moonbiker 2x35 litre bags for £175 UK delivered but radical designs sell it for €256.99 which I think is more expensive once you exchange the currencies. The only difference is colour scheme as far as I can tell.
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You know I think you're right about the rear rack bolt being on the pivot point.
When did it get the replacement lowrider? Was it recent, as in after the GTe model had come out?
July 2015, so yes. I had an email exchange with David Smith at HPVelotechnik in which I was clear that I hat a GT rather than a GTe, and they sold me a replacement (which was identical to the one on the bike) for €95+shipping. I think the bike is 2005 vintage, but I'm not the original owner.
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My question to David Smith was...
do you know if the streetmachine GTe lowrider rack would fit the older GT version?
His reply was...
Sorry, it will not fit.
Short and to the point. Same bike model as yours, the GT, but it doesn't fit. He replies quickly but I don't think I believe him now after what you've posted. I'm tempted to get one.
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The other option is a trailer.......
I did the Trans-Pennine on a Street Machine with the Radical Designs Cyclone trailer.
Worked well without issues........ well apart from a bit of water
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/Cunobelin/TPT/2004_0101TPT20070008.jpg)
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We're looking at ferries and trains with a young child in tow. Probably easier without a trailer. We'll be taking a followme-tandem, the idea is to switch between us.
I am used to burly child trailers and Bob Yak clones (adventure ct1 iirc). Two wheeled trailers I like but single wheel never worked for me. Too easy to overload.
The radical trailer looks a really good piece of kit. I like the way it folds into its own bag for carrying onto trains, ferries, etc. Still, it's expensive and four pannier bags or banana bags and rack top bag offers day to day options. I reckon banana bags would be more aerodynamic than panniers and lowrider loaded pannier is likely to be better than rear rack pannier. If I get a seat mounted rear rack bag such as radical top bag I could get a pannier's worth of commuting kit in an streamlined solution. I'm thinking of four panniers with a rear bag too. I really like these bags with their two bottle holders.
BTW how many ways to attach bottles to a streetmachine? Without drilling into the seat that is. I can only see the one at the end of the boom. What am I missing?
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BTW how many ways to attach bottles to a streetmachine? Without drilling into the seat that is. I can only see the one at the end of the boom. What am I missing?
The braze-ons on the underside of the frame just in front of where the lowrider rack attaches. I covered the usual options in the lighting thread. (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=107722.msg2279311#msg2279311)
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I've not noticed them. Can't see them on any image online but that's not surprising. Will take a look tomorrow when I'm free.
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Got home and found my recumbent had fallen over so before I put it straight I measured underneath. I think I have similar measurements to you.
As I understand the lowrider attachment points number three. Two at the pivot points either side and another underneath the frame to the front. The lowrider attaches inside the rear rack attachment points. The rear rack has a length of tube welded to the struts which is over 1cm each side.
The distance between the inside of the rear rack attachment at the pivot point is 120mm. If you draw a line between these points and measure from it at 90 degrees from the centre to the front lowrider attachment point is 168mm (it's not an exact measurement of fixed points so I not very good at committing to a single distance). If you measure the diagonal to the front point from one side point is 180mm.
Is that the same as your measurements? If so the rack you have should fit mine so I could buy safely from HPVelotechnik.
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Got home and found my recumbent had fallen over so before I put it straight I measured underneath. I think I have similar measurements to you.
As I understand the lowrider attachment points number three. Two at the pivot points either side and another underneath the frame to the front. The lowrider attaches inside the rear rack attachment points. The rear rack has a length of tube welded to the struts which is over 1cm each side.
No, the lowrider attaches outside the rear rack attachment. Nevertheless:
The distance between the inside of the rear rack attachment at the pivot point is 120mm.
Agreed, precisely 120mm.
The tube at the ends of the rear rack struts is about 24mm long on one side and 23.4 mm on the other.
I measure (with a steel tape measure, as my digital caliper doesn't go this wide) 167mm between the inner faces of the lowrider (and therefore the outer ends of the rear rack mounting point tubes) at this point. Which would appear to add up. :)
If you draw a line between these points and measure from it at 90 degrees from the centre to the front lowrider attachment point is 168mm (it's not an exact measurement of fixed points so I not very good at committing to a single distance). If you measure the diagonal to the front point from one side point is 180mm.
Is that the same as your measurements? If so the rack you have should fit mine so I could buy safely from HPVelotechnik.
I'm struggling to agree with you on these. It's not particularly easy to measure this with the rack in place, but:
Eyeballing the distance from the centre of the line between the two suspension pivot/rear rack attachment bolts to the front mounting braze-on on the surface of the frame is something like 185-190mm. I've got a rear rack to hold my ruler against, so I'm reasonably confident about being parallel. Error of maybe 3-4mm or so because the rack blocks my view of the braze-on.
Diagonal from front point to the inside of the rear rack mount (which isn't where the lowrider sits, but is what you've measured above) requires a measuring device that can phase through solid matter, but I'd estimate it at about 200mm. The diagonal from the inside of the side mounting point on the lowrider (sits against the outside of the rear rack attachment) to the front mounting braze-on on the frame is (again, solid matter) something like 210mm. (The lowrider doesn't sit against the frame directly, there's an appropriately curved washer to spread the load that's about 3mm thick).
What I'm confused about is how our measurements are different, as rack notwithstanding, it's supposed to be the same bike.
For shits and giggles, I've measured 135mm from the front lowrider braze-on to the hole (dynamo cable routing, for the purpose of) on the underside of the frame just in front of the suspension pivot. 25mm from the front lowrider braze-on to the rear water bottle braze-on. Eyeball it at something like 190mm from the front lowrider braze-on to the centre of the suspension pivot tube (hard to define the centre by eye). I measured 190mm from the rear lowrider mounting bolt to the centre of the front cross piece of the lowrider. 125mmish centre to centre from the suspension pivot to the bolt on the frame end of the shock. 150mmish (very ish because parallax) from the frame end of the shock to the front lowrider braze-on.
Hope that this sheds light, rather than mud :-\
ETA: Hang on, I've got an idea...
http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/stuff/SMGT_lowrider_side.PDF
I've traced around the side of the lowrider: Thickness of the pen means the tube diameters are a bit off, but should give you a decent reference of the shape. Barakta has used her PDF-fu to ensure that that should print at 1:1 scale if you don't tell it to fit to page.
Don't read anything into the slight shadow of the rear mounting bolt head on the paper, it's not quite in the right place (it slipped), the dot is.
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You know what, I think your measurements are right. It's probably me getting confused. Long day and I'm not thinking straight. Measuring but not writing it down right.
So my original measurements which I later contradicted in the last post had the diagonal from pivot point outside of the rear rack as 210. The distance between the outside of the rear rack looked like 180 but I'm not sure that's right because I've measured the distance from the mid point of the pivot point line to the front braze on again as 180mm or a few mm less.
I think a few mm the right way for some of my dodgy measurements I reckon your rack would fit my bike. So if yours is the current lowrider rack sold by HP Velotechnik then I can buy it.
Thank you for taking time to measure and get back to me. Much appreciated.
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Just seen my emails and have got the chance to get recumbent banana bags, the large ones giving 70 litres capacity, for a great price.
This gives me two options, four Ortliebs (need to buy two more at £100-110) on the two racks (need to spend £100 for the lowrider). Or the banana bags and I leave the Ortliebs at home. Which are best? Cheapest option is the banana bags.
Has anyone compared the two luggage systems on the same bike? Which is most practical / best ride / neatest solution?
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My only experience of banana bags is the 25L version barakta has on her ICE trike. I did experimentally fit them to the Streetmachine once to see how they worked with a hardshell seat but never used them on it in anger.
I doubt there's much it it handling-wise. Streetmachines are pretty unflappable.
My experience with the banana bags on the trike is that taking them on and off is a bit of a faff[1] compared to Ortlieb panniers. Panniers are easier to carry in your hand, but banana bags can usefully be slung over a shoulder for short periods.
The other difference is a bit more philosophical (in an Otlieb vs Carradice kind of way). Ortliebs are fully waterproof: You can set them down in a muddy puddle with impunity, and indeed hose the oh-no-that's-not-mud off without unpacking them. Carradice cotton duck doesn't quite manage that, but keeps the rain out and breathes better. Radical's cordura is even less waterproof than that, but the nature of banana bags is that the seat protects them from the worst of the elements anyway. They're well made and durable.
There's probably a minor aerodynamic advantage to the banana bags. You're mostly winning by lying down on the job. And they're good at long things like tent poles.
The lowrider gives you the awesomely stable kickstand.
Hopefully someone with experience of larger banana bags can weigh in...
[1] In what was possibly a poor decision, we bought the generic version from Radical rather than the custom one that ICE sell which has clips designed to quickly attach to the frame of their mesh seat, on the logic that I may want to borrow them for use with some other recumbent.
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The third option is a set of small banana bags and twin rear panniers.
I've always used either small or medium banana bags on my bent trike.
The medium/big banana bags use the rack to support the back of the bags.
But the small bags are fully supported by the seat, so the rack is still free to use with panniers.
But they do leak in heavy rain.
I've ended up cutting small holes at the low point of my medium bags so they drain.
One advantage of the banana bags is that they have a pocket on the top that will take a screw top water bottle if the bags not stuffed to full.
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wading in here with interest for a summer tour, Cruzbike so different geometry of course, but I was also looking at $160 for the lowrider rack and thinking :o
I have the rear rack with a carradice rack pack that is my audax solution to carrying stuff, and two panniers. I was planning on seeing how stuff fits and then adding extra stuff into my small bananananana bags (I think med size in terminology, no bottle holders). the frame should keep them out of the way of the rear wheel, and the behind the seat bottle cages are unusable unless your hands swivel as well as pivot, but with the cage under the handlebars I should be OK. What's the chainline like for keeping the radical bags unripped on a streetmachine?
I was also thinking the bananananana bags don't look waterproof, and was planning on using those for non-critical stuffs and even then packing in supplementary plastic bags for both organising and water resisting. Small amounts of food are under the handlebars in a stem-pack triathlon-style.
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The streetmachine has chain tubes so there's no issue there, I hope. I'm looking at total capacity needed and I think the large size gives 70 litres. Compared to my upright with two Ortliebs, a 35 litre dry bag on top, 8 litre bar bag and a custom frame bag filling my triangle (estimated 11 litres) gives me 94 litres. The four Ortliebs give 80 litres. To the large bags and 4 ortlieb options I can add the 35 litre dry bag giving 105 or 115 litres. Although with the seat I reckon your lose rack top space so the large dry bag will overhang the end (obscuring light/reflector) or I'll have to put it across the top of the bags/rack which presents a lot of bag to airflow. Not use aerodynamics is going to be important. I'm touring with a 5 year old, it'll be slow with rolling resistance having a more noticeable effect than aerodynamics. IIRC that really kicks in nearer 15 mph, I'll be doing 8mph most of the time at best.
Thinking about that a bit, I'm actually concerned that being the main load lugger those slow speeds might be an issue for me as a new recumbent rider. I definitely need to get my kit together and do a trial tour / ride. Even a simple local ride would be enough.
I dropped in on a BHPC event at the weekend and it's interesting to see that some guys who had put were racing came by the bike they raced on. I still don't know how the Bachetta rider got all those bags onto his bike. There were a few bike bags left by the side of the track so I assumed more than that got cycled there. Saw a raptobike rider kit up too for a ride home. Whilst the streetmachine is designed as a touring recumbent I have no doubt that you could rig up a load onto a wide range of recumbents if you wanted to.
The cruzbike range are front drive aren't they? What's that like? How do they feel steering? Does the whole drivetrain move with the front wheel? I just can't get my head round how complicated it all looks. They look very good bikes though. Would be fun to try one out. Mind you I've only ridden the SMGT so trying any other recumbent out would be fun.
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I wholeheartedly agree on the need for a trial run, I intend to do the same, if nothing else to establish effect on balance/handling and performance.
Cruzbike, yes FWD. Imagine an upwrong but backwards and you're not far off, effectively a rear triangle centred around the front wheel and pivoting through the head tube. Looks complicated, but like most effective engineering solution is actually a brilliantly simple concept.
I've found it far less daunting to get used to than 90% of people implied, far easier in fact than my M5 low racer. 500km into it and I'm confident that I can take a bottle out of the cage and drink on the move - took me about 3 times that on the M5. The trickiest thing to get used to is the pedal steer, but as with most things becomes ingrained, and as with most things recumbent can be solved with frequent self-exhortations to RELAX!
I'm definitely of the opinion that this is the way forward (excuse the pun) and I'm seriously thinking about getting another one, one of their utility models for general bimbling.
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Which model do you have? S40 looks good as does the q45 I think the more utilitarian / touring one is called.
I'm happy with mine, £500 secondhand and I'm told I'll get that back if I sell to upgrade or change my needs. Not that I expect to sell. If I like a bike (or even if I don't) I tend to keep them. Apart from the stolen one (didn't like it anyway). Just because you have a new toy doesn't mean the old one has to be thrown out or sold.
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I bought an S40 frameset and built it up with cannibalised bits from my Giant roadbike (must do something with that frame). The Q45 was released afterwards.
I was slightly trepidatious as I wasn't sure how I would get on with it, but knowing they are in short supply over here reasoned that I could sell it easily enough - my only experience of selling a 'bent is that prices are pretty good and second hand values are stable, so your £500 should be pretty secure.
Build blog for the S40 is here http://adventuresofanathleticdiabetic.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://adventuresofanathleticdiabetic.blogspot.co.uk/)
Next entry, currently being written will cover the first audax on it a couple of weeks ago.
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Thinking about that a bit, I'm actually concerned that being the main load lugger those slow speeds might be an issue for me as a new recumbent rider. I definitely need to get my kit together and do a trial tour / ride. Even a simple local ride would be enough.
Yes, you're going to need to work out your stall speed and practice your hill starts. Streetmachines are very good at not having much in the way of surprises handling-wise when loaded, but at the end of the day you've still got to put out enough power to balance the heavier bike.
I have a 19" bottom gear, a stall speed on the Streetmachine of about 2mph, and can twiddle up most things fully loaded, but that doesn't mean I can always get moving again if I have to stop on a steep climb. I've practised the art of pacing myself with a view to not stopping, but there's always the unforeseen (and with a child, trundling on to the top of the hill at your own pace might not be the diplomatic option).
I dropped in on a BHPC event at the weekend and it's interesting to see that some guys who had put were racing came by the bike they raced on. I still don't know how the Bachetta rider got all those bags onto his bike. There were a few bike bags left by the side of the track so I assumed more than that got cycled there. Saw a raptobike rider kit up too for a ride home. Whilst the streetmachine is designed as a touring recumbent I have no doubt that you could rig up a load onto a wide range of recumbents if you wanted to.
Preston or Lancaster? I was at Preston on an Optima Baron. Travelled up from Brum on the train, with my stuff in a couple of Ortlieb Front-Rollers on the (somewhat ugly and out of place looking, but extremely useful) rear rack.
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Lancaster. I heard it was a fast track with a dodgy bend that catches some recumbents out. I live 15 minutes away by car so I took my lad. We were in the middle of the track and he was spinning like a top trying to not miss any cyclists going by. It was fun watching him.
There's a very good kids cycling club there and he wants so much to join it. They have a minimum age limit if 7 years so it's 1.5 years of waiting. Still we have a deal. He'll support me if i try joining in at a BHPC race there and I'll support him on his races. That really excited both of us.
BTW it annoys me so very much the age to join cycling club. He's a good cyclist and needs to join such a club. You can get into football with local clubs from age 18 months locally but cycling and athletics have a 7 years minimum age limit. Disgusting considering cycling is low stress on developing bones / bodies but football seems to cause injuries. The ppl at work who play football are always coming in injured. Some have been seriously injured too. It can't be about insurance can it?
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Maybe it's because if you let little kids loose with a ball each in a hall/field, the worst that happens is that they fall over. If you let a kid without bike handling skills or personal discipline loose on a track with other riders, they can cause havoc, bring them down and potentially cause serious injury.
Around here the local Go Ride MTB club have specific rides for ages 4 and up, but there aren't any clubs with access to a track within an hour, and all the road clubs have a minimum age of 16.
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Could it just be about what they have volunteers willing to organise?
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It's a well run club and I believe one of the main kids cycling clubs within the BC fold. They organise race scheduless for children in their club and inter - club too. A full calendar I believe. Plenty of coaches and volunteers among the adults taking their kids to it. It's something else.
Football seems to do more damage to the adults at work than any other sport. We have had too many on sickness for weeks or months because if injuries playing football. Mostly knees, ankles and feet getting damaged. Broken bones, torn ligaments and tendons. Twisting injuries seem to be a common cause. Dangerous sport is football! ;)
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It's a well run club and I believe one of the main kids cycling clubs within the BC fold. They organise race scheduless for children in their club and inter - club too. A full calendar I believe. Plenty of coaches and volunteers among the adults taking their kids to it. It's something else.
Football seems to do more damage to the adults at work than any other sport. We have had too many on sickness for weeks or months because if injuries playing football. Mostly knees, ankles and feet getting damaged. Broken bones, torn ligaments and tendons. Twisting injuries seem to be a common cause. Dangerous sport is football! ;)
That's because adults bounce less well as they get older. I like football, but I don't play any more, I kept hurting myself.
I'm proper envious of clubs like the Hillingdon Slipstreamers - they seem to do a great job with kids. I asked my local road club about kids and was basically told that they were adults only as riding with kids on the roads around here was not something they were prepared to do...
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Child protection, liability, criminal record screening, liability, volunteers
Need I say more? ;D
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what about Liability ;D
As a former Scouter I can say one of the issues is being considered a babysitting service by some parents who will drop of young Tarquin (and it is usually teh Tarquin parents of this world!) and then bugger off to the gym/shopping/lunch. While this is less of an issue for older children, it can be really problematic for younger folk.
and a word of advice to any would be youth leader; if you ever take the yoofs away, do not, under any circumstances catch an earlier ferry home. Tarquin's parents really do not like their Saturday morning plans being changed. Not one little bit.
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Does anyone know what pletscher kickstand works with the lowrider rack on a HP Velotechnik Streetmachine? I assume there is a section on the rack with bolt holes to take a suitable stand. Some are rated to 50kg total loads too.
BTW I think the issues with kickstands are not as applicable with recumbents so a lowrider rack which is designed to take a stand isn't going to cause damage to the frame as it's often said these stands do on uprights. I just need to know what one to look for.
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Does anyone know what pletscher kickstand works with the lowrider rack on a HP Velotechnik Streetmachine? I assume there is a section on the rack with bolt holes to take a suitable stand. Some are rated to 50kg total loads too.
The mounting on the lowrider is a flat plate of about 33mm X 66mm with a hole for an ?M10 bolt in the middle. Any stand designed for centre mounting behind the bottom bracket of a DF with a flat top of up to (but not exceeding) those dimensions ought to fit. Strut length on mine (marked "PLETCHER ESGE", but doesn't quite look like any of the current models), ignoring the dog-leg is approximately 220mm from the pivot of the stand to the base of the ferrule, which is on the short side[1] compared to what you'd have on an upwrong. I'd suggest a stand without any fancy bits at the foot end, so you can cut it to length without issues. A generous ferrule[2] will help on soft ground (as will locking the rear brake on, so the bike doesn't rock as much and cause the stand to dig in).
The small front wheel and restricted steering lock means it won't tend to flop over in the same way as a DF. If it falls it's either because the weight of the loaded bike (or the owner stuffing things in panniers) has caused the stand to dig in, an unbalanced load has tipped it over (put the heavy stuff in the front panniers, and fit them to the bike first), or a freak gust of wind has blown it the other way.
BTW I think the issues with kickstands are not as applicable with recumbents so a lowrider rack which is designed to take a stand isn't going to cause damage to the frame as it's often said these stands do on uprights. I just need to know what one to look for.
The weak points in the system are the upper cross-strut of the lowrider, particularly at the stress point where it bolts to the underside of the frame, and the welds securing the stand mounting plate. Being aluminium, those are what's going to break first due to fatigue/overload. The bike itself will shrug it off like the panzerrad that it is.
[1] As the stand mount is to the left of the central axis of the bike, it doesn't need to reach as far to touch the ground when the bike is leaning.
[2] The leg of my stand wore through the base of the ferrule early on. I've since beefed it up with a piece of L-shaped stainless, a couple of self-tapping screws and generous helpings of Sugru[3].
[3] Mostly for the benefit of exposed toes when kicking the stand while wearing sandals.
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Thanks for that. I didn't realise it was attached to a horizontal plate. I thought it was like the chainstay type of v stand that had two bolts to a vertical plate in the corner of the rack. Thinking it through that would interfere with the pannier bags.
Well I've spent by hard earned and chickened out of deciding on moonbiker bags or 4 panniers. I've bought both rack and bags. I'll use them both at different times I reckon the bags fit touring and the lowrider with a pannier when not touring fully loaded. If I can fit panniers and moonbiker bags then I'm laughing. If not I've got the option of using the moonbiker bags. With a large drybag on top. At a later date I might decide to get larger ortlieb panniers instead of using the moonbiker bags.
More than I wanted to spend but I'll use them or sell them on.
BTW I'm guessing if you use 4 panniers the heaviest ones are best on the lowrider. Is that right?
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BTW I'm guessing if you use 4 panniers the heaviest ones are best on the lowrider. Is that right?
Yes; opposite of packing an upwrong. Heavy stuff on the lowrider, bulk on the rear. More subtly, don't put the dry stuff you're likely to want to access during the ride (camera, phone, map, wallet, etc) in the front left pannier - with the bike on the kickstand, that's the one that rain run-off from the seat will trickle towards when it starts lashing it down.
(IME you have to put an awful lot of weight on the rear rack before it starts to significantly affect the bike handling, but balancing out the weight distribution makes manoeuvring the bike a lot easier when you're not actually riding, and of course it's more stable on the stand.)
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Build blog for the S40 is here http://adventuresofanathleticdiabetic.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://adventuresofanathleticdiabetic.blogspot.co.uk/)
Had a read of your blog. Surname is Whitehurst by the way. The import cost really puts me off the S40; big expense if I find I do not like it. Plus with my road bike frame breaking I have a new project when I get the replacement under warranty, a disc brake frame with wider clearances. So going to stick with the Fuego for now. But would be good if there's a chance to have a brief test ride of an S40 in a benign environment.
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Back on topic.
I use banana bags on my Fuego with a SuperC rack bag behind the seat. The banana bags have outer mesh pockets into which you can either put snacks or extra water bottles. Really easy to access whilst seated though I tend to do it when stopped for a moment. Bags do not affect handing and my average speeds do not vary with them on and off as far as I checked in the early days. Easy to put on and take off seat as well.
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No longer looking at banana bags. Seen a 70 litre set of panniers from ortlieb for slightly less. They have a 4 litre mesh pocket which should take a bottle or two or bladder plus extras your need access to quickly. I think adding them to my big standard ortlieb back roller classics would be a smart option.
https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Back-Roller%20Pro%20Plus (https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Back-Roller%20Pro%20Plus)
https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Back-Roller%20Pro%20Classic (https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Back-Roller%20Pro%20Classic)