eBikes - easier, OR faster?

[Ben T]

I saw an advert for this yesterday: http://www.gtech.co.uk/ebike.html
Looks great. It says "if you pedal, the bike will help you up to 15mph, but you can pedal harder if you like and go faster".
And it says its range is 'up to 30 miles'

So... let's say for the sake of argument that as a reasonably fit cyclist I have a journey of 30 miles which on my conventional, non-electric bicycle I can do in 2  to 2 and a half hours. Although I'm thus averaging slightly less than 15mph, that probably involves going more than 15mph instantaneously at some point.

In short - can an e-bike enable me to complete that journey quicker than that, for the same effort? Or can it only make it easier, for the same speed?

Do different models of e-bike differ in their ability to use their electric assistance to increase my speed, rather than to decrease my effort?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Road-legal electric bikes basically ensure that your minimum speed is 25 kph, regardless of hills. Whether that increases your average speed depends on your normal riding speed and how hilly your route is. There are plenty of e-bikes that aren't road-legal and you'll definitely go faster on them.

[Kim]

The 25kph limit is a requirement of the legislation that makes electric bikes road legal in the EU.  Yes, you can get systems that don't have this limitation (typically marketed for "off-road" use, or sold in a jurisdiction-agnostic way by sellers in the far east), but in legal terms they're an unapproved motorcycle by default, so things could end badly if you're caught^[1] using one on the road.

On the gripping hand, you have to be a pretty fit cyclist (or live in a pretty dull part of the world) to have a *minimum* rolling speed of 25kph.  Assistance won't do anything for the bits where you're already going more than 15mph (well, the extra weight might speed you up downhill), but it will mean you spend less time below 15mph on the climbs and accelerations.

ETA: Crosspost with LittleWheelsandBig


_{[1] While it's easy enough not to ride one like a cock, consider what happens in the aftermath of a standard SMISDY if they realise what you were riding?}

[pdm]

As with all things in life, the answer is "It depends!"

About 17 years ago, I tried an electric bicycle for about 6 months - you can read of the experience and ultimate outcome here.

e-Bikes have improved since then - they are a bit lighter and Li batteries are smaller but I think the general priciples remain.

* Road legal eBikes do not give assistance over 15mph. The maximum legal power supplement is 200-250W. They will get you up to speed faster, though.
* If you have hills to struggle up, the ebike will get you up them faster and so reduce your overall time.

Bottom line:
If 30 miles of cycling on the flat takes more than about 2:15 on a conventional bicycle, an ebike will be faster. If those 30 miles take less than 2 hours, don't bother!
If you have lots of hills where your speed drops below 10mph then, even if you can maintain 15mph average, the amount of effort to do so with an eBike is quite a bit less.

[fuaran]

Depends on whether the battery will last for 30 miles. "Up to 30 miles" could be a lot less on a hilly route, or if you are not pedalling much.

[robgul]

Feedback through the shop from a couple of customers that are gtech ebike owners has been disappointment at the quality of the product and battery life/range (and it's not a cheap machine - especially as it's sold direct without the overhead of dealer margins etc)

There are better ebike options with prices falling quite rapidly - I have new generation 7 speed machine in the shop that is £1,299 with a range of about 55 miles on the battery.

I would concur on the speed/time question that you are on the cusp of any significant benefit.

Rob

[zigzag]

accelerating to 25kph with assistance and then it cutting out is most frustrating. i wonder if it's the case with the modern road e-bikes which are supposed to give some assistance for less capable riders to ride in a stronger group (where the typical average is above 30kph)?

[Ben T]

Hmm, that's interesting. That sort of implies it will actually be faster on a hilly route, because it will still go 25kph UP the hill, but will then potentially go faster than that down it... but on a flat route it might still just go 25kph all the way.

Hypothetically obviously, but just supposing I'm not bothered about being legal. What are my options then?

[pdm]

As far as I am aware, the law is quite specific - no motorised assistance is allowed above 25 kph/15.5 mph for road legal electrically assisted bicycles. If there is assistance above 25kph/15.5 mph, it is classed as a motorcycle and needs vehicle registration and a license to be allowed on the road. The rider then also needs to be dressed up in a hard shell motorcycle helmet.
You can travel faster than 25kph on a legal e-bike, of course, but only without motor assistance.

See: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

[LittleWheelsandBig]

A to B magazine is worthwhile.
http://www.atob.org.uk/electric-bikes/ includes a 28mph sport category.

[Samuel D]

There are lots of electric bikes here in Paris, and I usually pass them whatever the circumstances: accelerating from stopped, on the flat, into the wind, or up inclines. By the way, most of them don’t do 25 km/h up any significant hill.

One reason is that the bicycles and their riders present a large surface area to the wind. I’m probably putting out not much more power than their riders, but I’m greatly more aerodynamic (and no doubt have tyres of much lower rolling resistance, too).

Much of the electric power is used on the extra weight, extra drag, and extra rolling resistance over a lightweight audax-style bicycle. Reminds me of modern hatchbacks with 100-horsepower engines that can barely get out of your way because they weigh a ton and a half.

[Ben T]

There are lots of electric bikes here in Paris, and I usually pass them whatever the circumstances: accelerating from stopped, on the flat, into the wind, or up inclines. By the way, most of them don’t do 25 km/h up any significant hill.

One reason is that the bicycles and their riders present a large surface area to the wind. I’m probably putting out not much more power than their riders, but I’m greatly more aerodynamic (and no doubt have tyres of much lower rolling resistance, too).

Much of the electric power is used on the extra weight, extra drag, and extra rolling resistance over a lightweight audax-style bicycle. Reminds me of modern hatchbacks with 100-horsepower engines that can barely get out of your way because they weigh a ton and a half.

Hmm, yeah you see I don't want that, I'd ideally like a normal drop bar road bike but with a battery that can ADD 25kph to my speed 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

As with everything, there are cheap e-bike-shaped objects that don't work very well but are widely sold. Do your homework, spend a bit more and get a decent e-bike and actual performance will match that promised.

[JennyB]

From my experience (legal conversion of low-end touring bike) at full-value audax levels of effort, the assistance will get you 30% further in the same time. If you can push harder the advantage rapidly disappears.

[Cunobelin]

Also don't forget that batteries lose capacity over time.

Most "guarantees" will be for something like 85% capacity

This means that the range will also decline

[mrcharly-YHT]

When I was fit and commuting regularly, my commute times for the 25miles were an average of 1.5 hours. obviously an e-bike would not have made that any quicker.

I'm unfit now and regularly get overtaken by e-bikes in york - there are loads around and they do seem to do 15mph up slight gradients.

[DuncanM]

A former colleague of mine had something very similar to this:
https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/brands/haibike/haibike-xduro-hardseven-4-0-2017-electric-mountain-bike-anthracite-white
He had also got a "dongle" that confused the sensors into allowing him to do 25mph. He could commute 15 miles each way at "turbo" setting while wearing his work clothes and would be right on the edge of his range if he didn't charge at work.
It was a seriously rapid machine, but not legal, and not exactly efficient on pedal power. You can get a road shaped electric bike from Giant, but they are massively pricey, and they have the same legal limits under battery power:
http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/sports-e-bikes/road_e_2_pro.html

[mattc]

A former colleague of mine had something very similar to this:
https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/brands/haibike/haibike-xduro-hardseven-4-0-2017-electric-mountain-bike-anthracite-white
He had also got a "dongle" that confused the sensors into allowing him to do 25mph. He could commute 15 miles each way at "turbo" setting while wearing his work clothes and would be right on the edge of his range if he didn't charge at work.
It was a seriously rapid machine, but not legal,

I'm sure we all knew this would happen. Every other gizmo with limitations gets hacked eventually - including modern car engines - why not e-bikes?

I guess the question is: will the fuzz get involved? I foresee not; until a pedestrian gets seriously injured. Then there will be media and legal chaos!

[DuncanM]

A former colleague of mine had something very similar to this:
https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/brands/haibike/haibike-xduro-hardseven-4-0-2017-electric-mountain-bike-anthracite-white
He had also got a "dongle" that confused the sensors into allowing him to do 25mph. He could commute 15 miles each way at "turbo" setting while wearing his work clothes and would be right on the edge of his range if he didn't charge at work.
It was a seriously rapid machine, but not legal,

I'm sure we all knew this would happen. Every other gizmo with limitations gets hacked eventually - including modern car engines - why not e-bikes?

I guess the question is: will the fuzz get involved? I foresee not; until a pedestrian gets seriously injured. Then there will be media and legal chaos!

I think it just needs a collision that involves the police. If a driver pulls out in front of him at a roundabout or something, are the police going to check that the bike is legal and would insurance be checking and trying to get out of their obligation?

[psyclist]

are the police going to check that the bike is legal and would insurance be checking and trying to get out of their obligation?

An insurance company would indeed be very keen to learn whether the e-bike is legal or not in the event of a serious incident. It's not a matter of getting out of their obligation, but determining whether the conditions of the insurance cover apply if an illegal machine has been used. For a third-party insurer, knowledge that the e-bike was not legal would certainly be a big part of their defence.

[DuncanM]

Sure, it's entirely reasonable for an insurance company to check the facts regarding an incident for which they may need to pay out. I was merely being facetious. 

[Kim]

As with everything, there are cheap e-bike-shaped objects that don't work very well but are widely sold. Do your homework, spend a bit more and get a decent e-bike and actual performance will match that promised.

Very much this.

[chrisbainbridge]

We have an ebike in the fleet bought for my wife.  It is a high quality VOLT with 10 speed gears and a range of about 80km.

I love it in the sense that we now happily cruise at the same speeds when out for a ride and she beats me up the hill so I have a challenge.  I no longer have to slow down and wait for her.   She can certainly do 80km of fairly hilly, doing her level of input and still have something left in the battery.

I have tried it a couple of times and it is dangerously addictive.  I would certainly consider it in another 15 years when I am in my 70s as a method of getting out and keeping going but would probably want the new pinarello Nytro! http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/electric/product/pinarello-nytro-electric-road-bike-review-51679/

[JohnL]

Do consider that the consequences of being caught with a non legal e-Bike are considerably more than, say, using ‘non legal’ lights.

It’s likely driving without insurance, no license , no tax, might be no MoT. It’ll mean multiple points on a driving license  and a proper fine, possibly a driving ban (those points can tot up fast)...

John
ETA: oh, and potentially a criminal record and I know I’d be very lucky to keep my job...

[Auntie Helen]

I didn’t think that cycling offences affect your car driving licence in the UK (although they do here in Germany)