Open Pro's to Zonda's... worth it?

[halvis]

I am wondering if I would benefit from fitting something like Campagnolo Zonda's (a relatively in expensive and stiff wheel set apparently) to run alongside my hand-built Open Pro / Campagnolo Record wheel set.  The OPs are comfortable but I have a feeling I could do better in the power transfer from pedal to road dept.

Bike is a steel Condor Fratello, so not exactly a stiff frame but looking to get a little more forward motion with each pedal stoke.

I did have a stiffer framed bike (CAAD 10) with similar wheels to the Zonda's which was more snappy and trying to replicate that to a certain extent.  FYI, the CAAD was only 1KG lighter.

Looking to keep the Open Pro's for Audax, but use the Zonda's for hilly, faster rides.

thanks in advance.

[dim]

not enough spokes on the Zonda's IMHO (they look fragile compared to my HED Belgium plus with Chris King R45 hubs/Sapim Cx-Ray spokes) ....

look at getting a custom wheelset built with decent hubs, tubeless ready and enough spokes 

[Torslanda]

A very good customer has an Argos 725 with Open Pros. We tried a simlar pair of 'super-light, super-stiff' wheels which he said absolutely ruined the ride. Yer pays yer money . . .

[Brucey]

the wheelset you have at present is well-matched to the frameset; a set of Zondas, not so much.  The idea that the different wheels might suddenly

...do better in the power transfer from pedal to road dept...

and/or

... get a little more forward motion with each pedal stoke....

(sic)

suggests to me perhaps you have been reading too many drivel-ridden magazines and maybe you should have a little lie down in a darkened room for a while...

On a practical note the current Zondas are a wider rim than an Open pro, so work best with different tyres. Tyres are much more important than the difference between those two wheelsets are, BTW.

cheers

[halvis]

suggests to me perhaps you have been reading too many drivel-ridden magazines

Haha, I haven't purchased a magazine with my own money for at least 15 years, honest!  OK, but with too much time off at this time of year, I may have been over thinking/Googling stuff, which may have lead you to believe such a thing.

No, I am just trying to mirror what I had with the Cannondale, but using only one bike and wondering if a 2nd set of stiffer wheels will get me near the two bikes in one.  I was hoping the wider inner rim width would offset at least some of the harsh ride quality a stiff factory build would bring.

I used 25s on H Plus Son Archetypes on my last bike as well and wanted them when ordering the Open Pros, but my LBS wouldn't source them for me at the time.  They certainly resulted in a stiffer build than the Open Pros.  I do have a soft spot for the Mavic's though as I have used them for years.  It did cross my mind to get the Archetypes again, but there is still good life left in the Open Pros.

Thanks everyone for your inputs.

[Bianchi Boy]

Hi,

I have two bikes with different wheels. One with OP and the other with Campag Neutron. These are the none aero wheels that Campag call climb dynamic. I can say that IMHO wheels only make a difference if they are poor quality and heavy. Any advantage on stiffness, aero effect and reducing the spoke count will only happen if you are riding at over 20mph average and then it increases greatly with higher speeds. If you are averaging 16mph the difference will be all in the mind, IMHO.

I have found much greater differences in tyres and recommend selecting an appropriate tyre for the purpose. When I did the Pyrenees Raid I had the best and fastest rubber I could get my hands on and these paid off with high grip on very fast descents. Also with the climbing as they were light and had low rotational mass.

I ride OP 90% of the time with good taught spokes. Very few reliability issues even when I hit a mighty pot hole and dented the rim. I have not noticed a lack of speed either and I can no longer average over 20mph.

BB

[BobScarle]

I have a pair of Zonda's on my Bianchi, sadly that is now relegated to the turbo (another story). They felt good on that frame but then again so did the Fulcrums they replaced. I have a Sabbath September which I have tried them on and although i could detect (thought I could detect) a difference the bike felt wrong somehow as if the wheels were not in keeping with the bike. I did feel a little more lively but not in the same way as the Bianchi did.

Funnily enough, I test rode a Condor Fratello a few weeks back and was really impressed with it. So much so that I am considering buying one (that's another story). Not sure, but I think it had Open Pro's on.

I am also looking at wheels and have read many reports and reviews on the H Son Plus Archetype rims. They have all been favourable.

[dim]

I have a pair of Zonda's on my Bianchi, sadly that is now relegated to the turbo (another story). They felt good on that frame but then again so did the Fulcrums they replaced. I have a Sabbath September which I have tried them on and although i could detect (thought I could detect) a difference the bike felt wrong somehow as if the wheels were not in keeping with the bike. I did feel a little more lively but not in the same way as the Bianchi did.

Funnily enough, I test rode a Condor Fratello a few weeks back and was really impressed with it. So much so that I am considering buying one (that's another story). Not sure, but I think it had Open Pro's on.

I am also looking at wheels and have read many reports and reviews on the H Son Plus Archetype rims. They have all been favourable.

I looked very closely at H Son rims when I had my wheels built a few months ago.... however, I ended up with the HED Belgium Plus rims .... I paid £139 per rim from Sigma. I'm using IRC tubeless tyres at the moment and I'm well pleased

[halvis]

@Bianchi Boy, Brilliant thanks, that's exactly the kind of 'knowledge' I was looking for.  I ride at 20mph average max on a good day, so I'll stick with what I have.  I use Conti 4 seasons all year round usually, but might try something different when spring arrives.

@Bob I love my Fratello and used it far more than the Cannondale CAAD 10 when I had that.  Even though I could get around a bit quicker and it was more fun, the Fratello just suits my style of riding better 90% of the time.

@Dim, HEDs from Sigma interesting.  I didn't think they were making them anymore, pricey though, they ought to be good.

[dim]

@Dim, HEDs from Sigma interesting.  I didn't think they were making them anymore, pricey though, they ought to be good.

they still have them:
https://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/HED/Belgium-Plus-Clincher-Rim/DUHY

from what I have read, they are still making the rims, but are very choosy as to who they sell them to ....

it sounds like they prefer you to buy the complete wheelset from places such as Chris King etc

quality rims though (mine are laced to Chris King R45 hubs (ceramic bearing upgrade), with Sapim Cx Ray spokes

[sojournermike]

I don't think changing wheels will give you what you are looking for. I suspect the difference is more in the frame. I've built and ridden wheels laced 20:24, 24:28 and 32:32 across a range of frames and they all feel responsive. In terms of rim I favour the Kinlin 31T and 22T, but the DTSwiss rr511 are nice too.

Don't believe the koolaid

[dim]

I don't think changing wheels will give you what you are looking for. I suspect the difference is more in the frame. I've built and ridden wheels laced 20:24, 24:28 and 32:32 across a range of frames and they all feel responsive. In terms of rim I favour the Kinlin 31T and 22T, but the DTSwiss rr511 are nice too.

Don't believe the koolaid

light strong wheelset with good plush tyres makes a huge difference ....

ask any good wheelbuilder or anyone who races long distance

[Owthathurt]

I've 2 sets of Zonda's, the older ones and the newer ones.

I've also Shimano RS010 (sturdy, cheap, reliable), Giant Pr2, Mavic Krysium and Shimano 501 (or that may be 510, can't remember, they're in the shed somewhere).

Anyway................ The Zonda's are amazingly robust and can be abused and beaten to Sh&t but the rear hub needs regular cleaning and greasing. Strangely for such a low spoke count wheel it is very hard to buckle them (and believe me I put them through some atrocious conditions and road surfaces/off road surfaces). The ride is very stiff on them though and a bit bumpy on rough roads.

I have a single carbon bike ( TCR used in good weather) and I use them on that. I wouldn't see much point on (my) bothering with anything other than high spoke count wheels on any other bike as I mostly do longish rides and the higher spoke count wheels seem kinder to my body.

Just to note, Giant PR2 wheels are absolute sh%te (just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm no wheel expert but I do like the Zonda's in combination with the carbon race style bike...... otherwise I just use whatever is lying around or going cheap.... Works for me.

I think mostly wheels "getting quickly up to speed" "reduced torsional flex"etc. etc. etc. is marketing gibberish unless you are making sudden accelerations and laying down power, doing jumps etc. etc.

Sure the Zonda's will react quicker that a heavy cheapish RS 010 but unless I was racing I'd prefer the RS010 for rougher roads on long spins.

Well that's the limit of my unexpert opinion.

Good luck with what whatever you decide on..........

[dim]

I've 2 sets of Zonda's, the older ones and the newer ones.

I've also Shimano RS010, Giant Pr2, Mavic Krysium and Shimano 501 (or that may be 510, can't remember, they're in the shed somewhere.

Anyway................ The Zonda's are amazingly robust and can be abused and beaten to Sh&t but the rear hub needs regular greasing. Strangely for such a low spoke count wheel it is very hard to buckle them. The ride is very stiff on them though and a bit bumpy on rough roads.

I have a single carbon bike (used in good weather) and I use them on that. I wouldn't see much point on bothering with anything other than high spoke count wheels on any other bike.

Just to note, Giant PR2 wheels are absolute sh%te (just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm no wheel expert but I do like the Zonda's in combination with the carbon race style bike...... otherwise I just use whatever is lying around or going cheap.... Works for me.

I have Giant PR-2 on my daily commuter (1980's Koga Miyata) .... these wheels are bombproof, stay true even on shite roads but weigh approx 1900 grams .... many happy chaps on the forums with these wheels (i.e. if you don't mind a few grams  of extra weight)

[Owthathurt]

I've 2 sets of Zonda's, the older ones and the newer ones.

I've also Shimano RS010, Giant Pr2, Mavic Krysium and Shimano 501 (or that may be 510, can't remember, they're in the shed somewhere.

Anyway................ The Zonda's are amazingly robust and can be abused and beaten to Sh&t but the rear hub needs regular greasing. Strangely for such a low spoke count wheel it is very hard to buckle them. The ride is very stiff on them though and a bit bumpy on rough roads.

I have a single carbon bike (used in good weather) and I use them on that. I wouldn't see much point on bothering with anything other than high spoke count wheels on any other bike.

Just to note, Giant PR2 wheels are absolute sh%te (just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm no wheel expert but I do like the Zonda's in combination with the carbon race style bike...... otherwise I just use whatever is lying around or going cheap.... Works for me.

I have Giant PR-2 on my daily commuter (1980's Koga Miyata) .... these wheels are bombproof, stay true even on shite roads but weigh approx 1900 grams .... many happy chaps on the forums with these wheels (i.e. if you don't mind a few grams  of extra weight)

I'm no expert and am cycling just about 4 years. I've covered about 70,000 Kms on my road bikes both in road and off road use (I have a tendency to travel on gravel or grass at times) but My PR2's are undoubtedly the only wheels on which I have broken spokes multiple times, buckled again and again and generally proved terrible in comparison to the cheapest of cheap Shimano wheels or any other wheels I've used.

That's just my experience however it's an objective experience...... whatever works and each to their own. 

[Brucey]

the biggest single difference between a wheelset like Zonda and (say)shimano  RS010 is that the hubs are heavier in the latter case. This accounts for the vast majority of the difference in the weight of the two wheelsets.

 This means that the moment of inertia is not much different and neither is the feel of the wheelsets (if the same tyres  etc are used).

BTW with stiffer rims you can sometimes get more brake rub.

I would endorse the use of H plus Son rims but (I think because of the shape of the extrusion, in common with several other current rims) they do lose more than a slight amount of tension when the tyre is inflated, enough to mean that they need to be built tighter than you might otherwise build them. But they are reasonably light, strong, and well made; they can build into very nice wheels.

cheers

[sojournermike]

I don't think changing wheels will give you what you are looking for. I suspect the difference is more in the frame. I've built and ridden wheels laced 20:24, 24:28 and 32:32 across a range of frames and they all feel responsive. In terms of rim I favour the Kinlin 31T and 22T, but the DTSwiss rr511 are nice too.

Don't believe the koolaid

light strong wheelset with good plush tyres makes a huge difference ....

ask any good wheelbuilder or anyone who races long distance

I build good wheels;) All the rims I mentioned above build into strong light wheels and work really well if they're properly built. I'm sure that's true of other rims too. Plush tyres are much nicer to ride that heavy sluggish ones. As discussed before, the impact of wheel (really rim) weight on speed is not very significant, but it does affect feel of the bike.

[Samuel D]

The OPs are comfortable but I have a feeling I could do better in the power transfer from pedal to road dept.

Bike is a steel Condor Fratello, so not exactly a stiff frame but looking to get a little more forward motion with each pedal stoke.

Where would the energy go if not into forward motion? Even if the rear wheel absorbed energy from pedalling torque (it doesn’t meaningfully, since the hub can only be wound up a tiny amount), it would return it without loss at the end of the pedal stroke because it’s made of elastic metals. The front wheel sees no torque so cannot even hypothetically store energy like this.

Front wheels vary in how they feel when you turn the handlebars quickly through a large steering motion. But among rims, tyres, and tubes you’re likely to consider for a given application, the difference in weight barely affects riding speed. One reason is that a minuscule portion of your energy output is spent accelerating the wheels on a typical ride.

I see that you worry about these tiny effects while ignoring the elephant in the room, your Continental Grand Prix 4-Season tyres. Stare into its eye and sternly ask yourself why. If you find a good answer, let us know!

[Brucey]

when folk feel their wheels 'not being stiff enough' often this is (if it isn't frame flex) a lateral movement of the wheel.  Wheels do vary in their lateral stiffness and this is challenged (by nearly all riders) when riding out of the saddle, and by some riders when riding powerfully in the saddle.

It seems unlikely that this is responsible for an appreciable loss in energy during steady-state riding.  When climbing out of the saddle there must be some loss but for most riders I don't think this is enough to worry about, given a choice between well-built OPs and Zondas.

cheers

[Samuel D]

If lateral wheel flex leads to brake rub, energy will be lost. Usually a lot less than it sounds like, but no doubt significant in some cases (and undesirable for other good reasons).

As you said upthread, stiff rims might lead to more brake rub. The classic Open Pros are probably better than most for avoiding brake rub.

Absent brake rub, where does energy stored in a laterally flexed wheel end up? I think that, as with frame flex, most of it ends up propelling the bicycle after a delay of a fraction of a second. That delay seems to agitate many people out of proportion to its practical import.

There’s little energy there anyway, as can be intuited by flexing the wheel with light thumb pressure or flexing the frame at the bottom bracket with a touch of the shoe.

[Ajax Bay]

I see that you worry about these tiny effects while ignoring the elephant in the room, your Continental Grand Prix 4-Season tyres. Stare into its eye and sternly ask yourself why. If you find a good answer, let us know!

This. Without wishing to turn this into a 'tyre fest', I've ridden GP4S for many tens of thousands of km but if the OP is sometimes 'averaging' 20mph, then while staying Continental, changing to GP4000S II will save them several watts per wheel, with relatively little loss of puncture protection. Go to the rollingresistance site to do some comparisons.
Must confess to buying a pair for the summer from Ribble https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/continental-gp4000s-ii-folding-tyre/ at 2 x £25.

[dim]

I see that you worry about these tiny effects while ignoring the elephant in the room, your Continental Grand Prix 4-Season tyres. Stare into its eye and sternly ask yourself why. If you find a good answer, let us know!

This. Without wishing to turn this into a 'tyre fest', I've ridden GP4S for many tens of thousands of km but if the OP is sometimes 'averaging' 20mph, then while staying Continental, changing to GP4000S II will save them several watts per wheel, with relatively little loss of puncture protection. Go to the rollingresistance site to do some comparisons.
Must confess to buying a pair for the summer from Ribble https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/continental-gp4000s-ii-folding-tyre/ at 2 x £25.

I used to use GP4000 SII but I'm now using tubeless tyres on my best bike. (currently using IRC tyres).... I am using the 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless and these are amazing .... I have not found any rolling resistance data on these, but I would say that they roll faster than GP 4000SII. I would use these on a long audax ride such as PBP or LEL

My next tubeless set will be the IRC Roadlite Tubeless which are lighter and which roll much faster that the RBCC .... not much info on the internet about these, but the few reviews that I have read are all very positive

On my commuter, I'm currently using Vittoria Open Pave CGIII ... first time that I've used these and so far I'm happy (1400 Km so far). I'm not sure if I will use GP 4000 SII again, as I've had 2 tyres split on the sidewall and on both times, I never rode over anyting sharp or rode into a pothole etc .... Also, there are many newer tyres that roll faster and that get very good reviews .... I may try Michelin Power Competition next
 
I have had very good results with Specialized Turbo Cotton and will definately use these again (a bit pricy though at £50 per tyre).... and these are very fast.... zero punctures and still look fairly new after 930 Km (I had these on my Giant TCR before fitting tubeless tyres I have them in storage and will use them again in spring on my commuter)

If you are using GP 4000 SII, add some latex tubes and you will be amazed at the difference in speed (only downside is that you need to pump them up a bit more often)

[halvis]

I have tried Vittoria Open Pave something or other in the past and did like them, I wouldn't say there was too much difference between those and the 4 Seasons though.

I can certainly say that the 4 Seasons are very capable of allowing the rider to feel the difference between wheel stiffness.  I used these on both Archetype and Open Pro rims.  I felt a big difference between ride quality as well when I moved from running 23mm on Archetype to 25mm.

Interested to hear the positive results with the Specialized Cotton, I might try a pair of those next in 26mm.  Thanks.

[The French Tandem]

I had a pair of Zondas back in 2011 that I matched with a carbon frame. On the first few rides, I was happy with that, the ride was fine, but uninspiring. After about 1500 km, the wheels slowly started getting out of true. It was not only a pain in the a**e to make them true again, but the flat spokes on the front wheel kept rotating, which made me seriously question the idea of better aerodynamics with flat spokes.

[dim]

I have tried Vittoria Open Pave something or other in the past and did like them, I wouldn't say there was too much difference between those and the 4 Seasons though.

I can certainly say that the 4 Seasons are very capable of allowing the rider to feel the difference between wheel stiffness.  I used these on both Archetype and Open Pro rims.  I felt a big difference between ride quality as well when I moved from running 23mm on Archetype to 25mm.

Interested to hear the positive results with the Specialized Cotton, I might try a pair of those next in 26mm.  Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynD0Rwc3Ius