Author Topic: Drive train cleaning  (Read 6580 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Drive train cleaning
« on: 11 February, 2018, 12:59:07 am »

Am pondering when I kill my next chain, taking the opportunity to do a deep clean on the rest of the drive train (cassette, jockey wheels etc...).

With the cassette (Tiagra 11-34), are there any hidden parts that would be unhappy if left to soak in degreaser (terps?) for an hour?

The jockey wheels have bearings in them, so I'm guessing just soaking the whole thing is suboptimal. What's the best way to clean these to prolong the life?

Is there any advantage to putting any of these parts through the ultrasonic cleaner?

Thanks

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #1 on: 11 February, 2018, 01:28:30 am »

Am pondering when I kill my next chain, taking the opportunity to do a deep clean on the rest of the drive train (cassette, jockey wheels etc...).

With the cassette (Tiagra 11-34), are there any hidden parts that would be unhappy if left to soak in degreaser (terps?) for an hour?

not really.  Turps will make some plastics swell slightly but this isn't likely and is no big deal even if it does happen.

Quote
The jockey wheels have bearings in them, so I'm guessing just soaking the whole thing is suboptimal. What's the best way to clean these to prolong the life?
The best thing to do is to remove and dismantle the pulleys, clean and regrease the bushings (basic mechs) or service the ball bearings (some other mechs/pulleys).  Immersing  the whole rear mech in solvent is a bad idea because the upper and lower knuckles will be stripped of their grease.

Quote
Is there any advantage to putting any of these parts through the ultrasonic cleaner?

Not really.   Mechs do wear out though; they either wear out in the parallelogram pivots or they wear out at one of the knuckles (usually the upper one).  Dirt in either will cause wear. So will stripping out all the lube and not replacing it. To clean the former you can jetwash the mech (careful now) and relube, or repeatedly spray with GT85 and work the mech until what bleeds out of the pivots isn't dirty, then relube (eg using aerosol SFG, wipe away the excess after the solvent has flashed off). To service the knuckles is possible too; you can simply add grease through a spare spring hole in some cases but mostly it requires that you disassemble the knuckles (fiddly and difficult; most folk don't bother).  If you are going to do one, do the upper one.

BTW some recent shimano RD designs have a leak path from the parallelogram into the lower knuckle;  I have seen one or two where the lower knuckle has seized because of this.

In fairness putting a lot of effort into a RD that is liable to be damaged or wear out anyway (and is cheap enough to replace) is a lot of effort for very little gain. But IME XT and Ultegra level mechs have better pulleys and more durable bushings elsewhere, and these can last long enough that it is worth putting in the effort.

With basic mechs it is usually sufficient to service the pulleys and just remove most of the crud from the rest of the mech, and lube it. By the time it is all a bit worn it is most cost-effective to replace the whole mech.

In an LBS near me 10s mechs are very often going in the bin because they are worn enough they won't work cleanly on 10s systems any more; however the same mechs may still work fine on 7,8,9s systems.

cheers

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #2 on: 11 February, 2018, 09:04:42 am »
My experience of a tiagra rear mech is about 9 years life with nothing more than cleaning of jockey wheels, one replacement set of jockey wheels, and spray lube at the pivots.

I upgraded to 10 from 8 speed and eventually only replaced it because it lost precision as Brucey says. It's in my spares box as a just in case. 

I also have an Average 7 so that is now 20 years old and has given no trouble at all despite absolutely no maintenance, it I much lower mileage though.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #3 on: 11 February, 2018, 10:27:22 am »
I wouldn't use terps by choice. If possible I would use diesel.

Not only does it do a good job of degreasing, but the residue is a lubricant.  First read of this in a book on cycle maintenance written by a tdf mechanic.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #4 on: 11 February, 2018, 11:11:40 am »
turps (not 'terps') substitute i.e. white spirit, is most likely what  you will get these days and it like most other solvents is not very nice stuff to be around

http://www.flints.co.uk/pdffiles/white_spirit_msds.pdf

but diesel is worse

http://www.hallfuels.co.uk/media/3481/Esso-Diesel.pdf

and the Coshh sheet contains the magic word 'carcinogen' which should set your alarm bells ringing. It typically contains a cocktail of additives that may be incredibly unpleasant. Don't be confused by its apparently prosaic everyday availability, it is pretty nasty stuff.

Diesel has enough lubricity that diesel pumps don't wear out too fast (where they would with a different fuel running through them) but that is not to say that it is a 'good lubricant'; if you want to lubricate something, you would choose diesel as a last choice!

Messing around with solvents is, by and large, best avoided if possible.  If you are going to use a solvent, use one that doesn't have known carcinogenic effects, doesn't have a low flashpoint, and avoid skin contact or breathing in the vapour.

cheers

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #5 on: 11 February, 2018, 11:28:34 am »
I'm not sure how you spray with GT85 and avoid breathing in the vapour!

I use diesel like this; get a container like the 500ml plastic 'jars' of pinapple chunks, put 200ml or so of diesel in container. Drop in whatever I want to clean. Put lid on container. Slosh around a lot (all while wearing gloves, heavy duty washing up gloves work) until the grime is off the item.  If it is really bad, lift it partly out of the container and scrub the stubborn bits with a toothbrush - do this 'inside' the container so that the spray from scrubbing is contained. When finished, let drip-dry into the container. It isn't necessary to throw the dirty diesel away, it can be used multiple times for cleaning.

Sure, this will wash grease out of joints. But it will clean off the dirty, oily grime and combined oil/dirty. Then you can disassemble and regrease where required. Springs, other connections are cleaned and have a minor film of diesel that does help with lubrication.

I didn't invent this regime. A TDF mechanic did.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #6 on: 11 February, 2018, 11:33:00 am »
not really.  Turps will make some plastics swell slightly but this isn't likely and is no big deal even if it does happen.

Oh yes, I learnt that the hardway. AH brand chocolate icecream containers - these warp and go weird when you put turps in them. Lidl brand vanilla icecream, no such issues...

Quote
The best thing to do is to remove and dismantle the pulleys, clean and regrease the bushings (basic mechs) or service the ball bearings (some other mechs/pulleys).  Immersing  the whole rear mech in solvent is a bad idea because the upper and lower knuckles will be stripped of their grease.

Good to know.

Quote
BTW some recent shimano RD designs have a leak path from the parallelogram into the lower knuckle;  I have seen one or two where the lower knuckle has seized because of this.

Leak path?

Quote

In fairness putting a lot of effort into a RD that is liable to be damaged or wear out anyway (and is cheap enough to replace) is a lot of effort for very little gain. But IME XT and Ultegra level mechs have better pulleys and more durable bushings elsewhere, and these can last long enough that it is worth putting in the effort.

Yeah, was wondering about that as well. Think I'll concentrate on the surfaces that interact with the chain, so the jockey wheels.

My experience of a tiagra rear mech is about 9 years life with nothing more than cleaning of jockey wheels, one replacement set of jockey wheels, and spray lube at the pivots.

What's your milage in those 9 years? I'm loath to think of parts life in terms of time, but in terms of distance. I killed the first chain in just 70 days, but I did do just shy of 1300km on it.

I wouldn't use terps by choice. If possible I would use diesel.

Not only does it do a good job of degreasing, but the residue is a lubricant.  First read of this in a book on cycle maintenance written by a tdf mechanic.

Turps is a lot easier to get hold of, and slightly healthier to have around the flat. Slightly...

turps (not 'terps') substitute i.e. white spirit, is most likely what  you will get these days and it like most other solvents is not very nice stuff to be around

http://www.flints.co.uk/pdffiles/white_spirit_msds.pdf

The bottle says "Terpentijn" on the label.

Quote

but diesel is worse

http://www.hallfuels.co.uk/media/3481/Esso-Diesel.pdf

and the Coshh sheet contains the magic word 'carcinogen' which should set your alarm bells ringing. It typically contains a cocktail of additives that may be incredibly unpleasant. Don't be confused by its apparently prosaic everyday availability, it is pretty nasty stuff.

Diesel has enough lubricity that diesel pumps don't wear out too fast (where they would with a different fuel running through them) but that is not to say that it is a 'good lubricant'; if you want to lubricate something, you would choose diesel as a last choice!

Messing around with solvents is, by and large, best avoided if possible.  If you are going to use a solvent, use one that doesn't have known carcinogenic effects, doesn't have a low flashpoint, and avoid skin contact or breathing in the vapour.

Yeah, I'd like to avoid diesel, it is not nice stuff.

What would you recommend as a degreaser if not turps?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #7 on: 11 February, 2018, 11:34:11 am »
I'm not sure how you spray with GT85 and avoid breathing in the vapour!

I use diesel like this; get a container like the 500ml plastic 'jars' of pinapple chunks, put 200ml or so of diesel in container. Drop in whatever I want to clean. Put lid on container. Slosh around a lot (all while wearing gloves, heavy duty washing up gloves work) until the grime is off the item.  If it is really bad, lift it partly out of the container and scrub the stubborn bits with a toothbrush - do this 'inside' the container so that the spray from scrubbing is contained. When finished, let drip-dry into the container. It isn't necessary to throw the dirty diesel away, it can be used multiple times for cleaning.

Sure, this will wash grease out of joints. But it will clean off the dirty, oily grime and combined oil/dirty. Then you can disassemble and regrease where required. Springs, other connections are cleaned and have a minor film of diesel that does help with lubrication.

I didn't invent this regime. A TDF mechanic did.

And there are several mechanic's I've talked to during an EHS audit

"so tell me about how you use solvents?"

"well, they give us these gloves and barrier creams, but I can't be arsed to use them, I've been doing this for 30 years with no problems"

" what do you know about sentitisation or contact dermatitis, have you had any training?"

"yes, that's when they started giving us the creams, I've never had any problems though, my hands get red and dry, but that's about all"
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #8 on: 11 February, 2018, 11:38:45 am »

My experience of a tiagra rear mech is about 9 years life with nothing more than cleaning of jockey wheels, one replacement set of jockey wheels, and spray lube at the pivots.

What's your milage in those 9 years? I'm loath to think of parts life in terms of time, but in terms of distance. I killed the first chain in just 70 days, but I did do just shy of 1300km on it.

Yeah, I'd like to avoid diesel, it is not nice stuff.

What would you recommend as a degreaser if not turps?

J


[/quote]

I use MUC-off and a stiff brush.

I don't log miles on a per-bike basis generally, but that bike in question has been the main winter bike because it could take mudguards, so that give you an idea of usage.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #9 on: 11 February, 2018, 11:45:43 am »
'Kersosene' (aka paraffin) can be used instead of diesel. Doesn't have lubricant properties to same degree, so adding some cheap engine oil would probably improve it! That's pretty obtainable.

Thing is, if you are working in a confined space like a flat you have the issue of lingering smells. white spirit does fade fairly rapidly. However, once mixed with dirty oil and grime from bike parts, it still stains just as badly as diesel. That's going to be true of anything. So for in-flat cleaning I think that cleaning in a jar like I described is the winning technique. You aren't going to want to spray anything.

Some of the 'green oil' stuff might be worth trying. Not cheap . . .
I have some of the chain oil. It is a bit rubbish as a chain oil but I've noted that spilled drops don't stain the driveway like spilled dino-oil.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #10 on: 11 February, 2018, 11:51:09 am »
'Kersosene' (aka paraffin) can be used instead of diesel. Doesn't have lubricant properties to same degree, so adding some cheap engine oil would probably improve it! That's pretty obtainable.

Ah, that I have in stock!

Quote

Thing is, if you are working in a confined space like a flat you have the issue of lingering smells. white spirit does fade fairly rapidly. However, once mixed with dirty oil and grime from bike parts, it still stains just as badly as diesel. That's going to be true of anything. So for in-flat cleaning I think that cleaning in a jar like I described is the winning technique. You aren't going to want to spray anything.

Yeah, I noticed this when rinsing the chain in the sink, which went from white to black very quickly, and required far too much scrubbing to get clean again... I don't know what it is they pave the streets of Amsterdam with, but it makes a hell of a mess of the chain...

For actual spraying I can step out onto the balcony, tho spraying in the current force 5-6 gale would be interesting...

I'm not using a jar, I'm using an empty icecream tub. I don't eat enough food that comes in glass containers, at least not in this country...

Quote

Some of the 'green oil' stuff might be worth trying. Not cheap . . .
I have some of the chain oil. It is a bit rubbish as a chain oil but I've noted that spilled drops don't stain the driveway like spilled dino-oil.

Shall investigate...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #11 on: 11 February, 2018, 12:01:12 pm »
Mechs do wear out though.....
In fairness putting a lot of effort into a RD that is liable to be damaged or wear out anyway (and is cheap enough to replace) is a lot of effort for very little gain. But IME XT and Ultegra level mechs have better pulleys and more durable bushings elsewhere, and these can last long enough that it is worth putting in the effort.
As does Campag.  My (10s triple) FD & RD are at 35,000 km and still going strong.  Keep drive train clean.  Deep clean the mech every year. Replace jockey wheels when worn (twice so far) with after-market ball-bearing type. 

Tiagra OTH - I'm sure the latest ones are fine, but back in the days they were 9s and I had one shear right across the body, sending the cage into the spokes.   Fortunately I was only 100 metres from home.  I'd suggest just cleaning crud off outer surface of jockey wheels, keep chain clean and lubed, treat whole RD as 'disposable'.

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #12 on: 11 February, 2018, 01:09:56 pm »
I wouldn't use a glass jar. I meant one of these https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/293074106 or similar. They seal reasonably well (don't tip them, but they keep the smell in ok). Bigger than the ones in my link are better.
Ice cream containers work until some clumsy person tips them and the free surface effect slops crap out. Big yoghurt pots/lekker pots work as well.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #13 on: 11 February, 2018, 01:22:11 pm »
I use “green” degreasers based on oranges  :). Finish Line Citrus Degreaser is one.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Genosse Brymbo

  • Ostalgist
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #14 on: 11 February, 2018, 01:37:03 pm »
Replace jockey wheels when worn (twice so far) with after-market ball-bearing type. 
Which after-market wheels have you used and found to be good, Peter?  I'm seeking some for my Veloce 10speed.
The present is a foreign country: they do things differently here.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #15 on: 11 February, 2018, 02:50:02 pm »
My approach is:

Sheldon shake in white spirit for the chain.
Pull a tampon soaked in GT85 through the chain tubes with an old brake cable inner.
Cassette cleaned in situ by 'flossing' with a microfibre cloth (the freewheel makes this quick and easy), with either detergent or degreaser, depending on how manky it is.
Jockey wheels and derailleur cage cleaned by rubbing the cack off with the afore-mentioned cloth, and picking the hair out of the bearings by hand.

I gave up removing the cassette just to clean it as too much faff for not a lot of gain.  By all means give it a soak/scrub if you've got it off for some other reason.

Servicing jockey wheel or idler bearings seems mostly unnecessary, to the point where I've stopped bothering.  If they feel smooth, they're probably fine, and they'll probably wear out or get accidentally damaged before the bearings go.  OTOH, if you're taking the whole mech apart to thoroughly de-skank it, you might as well do it then.

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #16 on: 11 February, 2018, 04:05:55 pm »
Apart from step 2 (I haven't any chain tubes  ;) ) this is my approach.

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #17 on: 11 February, 2018, 04:39:58 pm »

I didn't invent this regime. A TDF mechanic did.

...in 1950-something. You can do better than that now.

cheers

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #18 on: 11 February, 2018, 04:48:25 pm »
Yeah, I noticed this when rinsing the chain in the sink, which went from white to black very quickly, and required far too much scrubbing to get clean again... I don't know what it is they pave the streets of Amsterdam with, but it makes a hell of a mess of the chain...

I did SCIENCE... where's the photo?

*tapity-tap*



White spirit post Sheldon-shake (chain had done a couple of hundred kilometres of London roads):  Lubricant remains dissolved in the solvent.  Majority of the crud is attracted to the magnet, smaller portion of brown sediment on the bottom of the jar.  I conclude that, in the absence of mud, chain crud is mostly composed of chain.

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #19 on: 11 February, 2018, 04:57:39 pm »
In English it is 'Turps' for Turpentine. The original cocktail of things in it included a range of compounds more widely known as 'Terpines', which may explain why the spelling of Turpentine varies in other languages.

If you don't want your flat/home/workshop stinking up with solvents etc  there are alternatives.

1) shake with hot water and detergent (or organic degreaser, or muc-off  etc etc)

2) use a hot pressure wash on the transmission (carefully) 'in situ'. No detergents required if the water is hot enough.

I used to get my whole bike filthy every single day and I had a setup at home whereby a pressure washer was plumbed into the hot tap. I could clean the whole bike  (including chain and sprockets) in a little over five minutes.  A spray of water displacing lube on the chain, sprockets, mechs and that was it, done. It was lovely, just  like having a new bike every day.... 8)

This regime works with an XT or ultegra rear mech; the parallelogram gets cleaned and relubed every day, but the pulleys are sealed and need to be serviced once every three months or so. I kept a spare set of pulleys 'ready to go' so this swap was as quick as possible. In this regime the knuckles need a service maybe once a year; the dirt doesn't get much chance to penetrate them.

cheers

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #20 on: 11 February, 2018, 05:11:12 pm »
....  I conclude that, in the absence of mud, chain crud is mostly composed of chain.

yup, London roads are largely free of mud but some of the metallic debris on your chain will have come off the road, not from within your chain.

Much of the metal lying on the road is simply from (disc) brakes on cars etc. most likely.  You may be able to see (under a microscope) if the particles are the right size to have come out of a chain or not. 

Over on the CTC (Cycling UK) forum, it was recently estimated that chain pin bushings wear ~ 1 Angstrom per loaded flexion or something, i.e. the pin bushings wear about one atomic layer at a time. I suppose it is possible that wear on the rollers and side plates makes slightly larger particles but they won't be several orders of magnitude bigger.
 Thus any metal particles that you can see under a decent optical microscope ought to be 1-5um in size or larger and if they are that big, they have not come out of a wearing chain; they are maybe x1000 too large for that.

The other contaminants in urban road crud include precious metals from catalysts. These get sorted as rainwater washes down the roads and in some places the deposits contain so much that they would be 'workable ore' if a geologist found them in the field.

If you don't have access to a good optical microscope, I do; if you want to send me a sample of your metallic crud let me know by PM.

cheers

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #21 on: 11 February, 2018, 05:50:04 pm »
Excellent SCIENCE there, Kim!

What kind of optical microscope do you need for this kind of analysis, Brucey? I'm guessing the 600x magnification kids' microscope I've got is probably not powerful enough?

Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #22 on: 11 February, 2018, 06:29:26 pm »

I didn't invent this regime. A TDF mechanic did.

...in 1950-something. You can do better than that now.

cheers
It was a 1980's mechanic. Accompanied by how (at the time, things have improved with the advent of team buses), the team mechanics frequently had to do maintenance on pavements outside hotels, or in hotel rooms. I therefore conclude that what worked for that mechanic may well work for us.

Your suggestions are not exactly practical for someone living in a rented flat, apart from suggesting shaking with degreaser. Which is what I suggested further up thread and you rubbished.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #23 on: 11 February, 2018, 06:33:42 pm »
Steve Snowling. I helped prep frames for the Halfords TdF team in '87 while he was busy building their wheels.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Drive train cleaning
« Reply #24 on: 11 February, 2018, 06:35:30 pm »
I used to have access to a Safety-Kleen parts washer at work.  This was most excellent, and used some proprietary solvent.

I don't any more, and I now use diesel as a substitute.
I use a couple of stainless steel roasting trays, one as a diesel bath and one with absorbent paper in it to lay out the cleaned parts on.
But I am doing this in a large garage, not in the kitchen of a flat.

I do wear disposable gloves, and use a toothbrush on the parts in the diesel bath.
The diesel can be re-used several times if you let the worst of the solids settle out and carefully decant the diesel into another container.

The maintenance regime for my commuter bike is quite high.
Pretty much every weekend (particulatly in winter) the chain, cassette and chainset is removed and given a thorough clean in this way.
Otherwise it would fall to bits within a month!