Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: mattc on 02 March, 2019, 12:11:44 pm

Title: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: mattc on 02 March, 2019, 12:11:44 pm
Speaks his mind with (TV's) Daniel Friebe. I can't remember an active British sportsperson being this outspoken:

https://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/cavendish-on-the-comeback-trail
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: slope on 03 March, 2019, 12:57:32 pm
Raw and emotional to say the least. Wish him well, soon.

(and might one suggest Daniel Friebe is a well nuanced interviewer?)
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 March, 2019, 01:39:26 pm
A sprinter's dominance is, of course, entirely in relation to the people he or she is racing against, and their team context.

Groenewegen, Viviani, Ewan, Gaviria, Kittel, Bennett, Jakobsen and Ackermann are the top tier at the moment. How many of them are relatively new entrants?  ;) If you look at the team context, compare Cavendish (pre and post Sky) and Groenewegen. Groenewegen doesn't have the luxury of a team built for him. If he did, he'd probably outshine everybody.

Cav belongs at the next level down along with people like Greipel, Kristoff, Hodeg, Trentin, and Demare, some of whom were once at the top, and some who might get there.


Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: ElyDave on 03 March, 2019, 02:54:20 pm
Doesn't seem part bolshie to me, just down to earth and honest. 
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: mattc on 03 March, 2019, 06:28:38 pm
Quote from: ElyDave on 03 March, 2019, 02:54:20 pm
Doesn't seem part bolshie to me, just down to earth and honest.
I've always found him pretty down to earth (in as much as someone around the top of his million-dollar sport can be!), and very honest. I'm a fan, but historically the trend amongst Brits has been to label him arrogant, which I've never understood  :-\

Given his illness situation, I'm not sure we'll ever know how right Flatus' comments are.
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Mr Larrington on 03 March, 2019, 06:45:59 pm
Quote from: slope on 03 March, 2019, 12:57:32 pm
Raw and emotional to say the least. Wish him well, soon.

(and might one suggest Daniel Friebe is a well nuanced interviewer?)

When he first appeared as TV's D Friebe he was painfully wooden but he seems to have improved his act greatly since then.  TV's Super D Millar was bloody awful on his debut too :demon:

Bethany [8]:His hats are still shit though!
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Hot Flatus on 11 March, 2019, 05:45:01 pm
Quote from: mattc on 03 March, 2019, 06:28:38 pm
Quote from: ElyDave on 03 March, 2019, 02:54:20 pm
Doesn't seem part bolshie to me, just down to earth and honest.
I've always found him pretty down to earth (in as much as someone around the top of his million-dollar sport can be!), and very honest. I'm a fan, but historically the trend amongst Brits has been to label him arrogant, which I've never understood  :-\

Given his illness situation, I'm not sure we'll ever know how right Flatus' comments are.

Cavendish has abandoned Paris-nice.

Groenewegen has won both stages.

I'd say my comments are pretty accurate  ::-)

p.s. no coverage/headlines in cycling press about Cavendish abandoning. What does that tell you about his status...
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: DuncanM on 11 March, 2019, 09:54:35 pm
Given the GC guys who got hurt (Uran broken collar bone, Barguil fractured vertebrae, Gorka Izaguire crashed out) and who got dropped in the Crosswinds (Yates, Chaves, Soler, Superman Lopez), Cavendish abandoning isn't a long way down the news about Paris Nice.

When he's been healthy, he's been in the top ranks of the sprinters. Clearly he's not been healthy for a couple of years, and what Friebe doesn't say in the interview is that people get old. You can understand Cavendish thinking that he can beat any of the current crop of sprinters because he's done it before, but fundamentally, at some point, even if he were healthy and firing, age will catch up and he'll struggle to win races. With the health issues he's had (and crashes), whether he can ever get to that condition again (before age dulls his edge) remains to be seen. Of Hot Flatus' list, there are only a couple who would get anywhere near Cav at his best (maybe Groenewegen, Gaviria and Kittel?), but sprinting has such fine margins that even a couple of tenths of a percent down makes a huge difference...
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Hot Flatus on 11 March, 2019, 10:30:58 pm
Cavendish's best ended 8 years ago.

Since 2013 most years have been pretty  fallow, with 2016 an exception.

Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: DuncanM on 12 March, 2019, 09:35:47 am
Quote from: Hot Flatus on 11 March, 2019, 10:30:58 pm
Cavendish's best ended 8 years ago.

Since 2013 most years have been pretty  fallow, with 2016 an exception.
2014 he broke his shoulder on the first day of the Tour.
2015 he won a bunch of smaller races, including Kurne Brussels Kurne and 1 TdF stage.
2016 he won 4 TdF stages, and an Olympic silver
2017 he got Epstein Barr, and then broke his shoulder in the TdF (stage 4)
2018 he crashed his way through the first half of the year, and was then re-diagnosed with Epstein Barr.

So wins have been fewer in those years, but if you are an optimist, you say that when he's fit he wins stuff. The question is whether he can get fit enough.

And, FWIW, his withdrawal from Paris Nice made Cycling Weekly, though they said he was there as a domestique as part of building his fitness: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/mark-cavendish-abandons-paris-nice-continues-work-way-back-towards-full-fitness-410174
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 March, 2019, 11:45:28 am
I think the point being is that the others didn't crash.

Not crashing is an integral part of being a good sprinter.
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Ian H on 12 March, 2019, 01:02:50 pm
Quote from: Hot Flatus on 12 March, 2019, 11:45:28 am
I think the point being is that the others didn't crash.

Not crashing is an integral part of being a good sprinter.

As are taking risks and being lucky.
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: DuncanM on 12 March, 2019, 01:30:21 pm
Sure.  I just think you are making different comparisons when you look at him vs the others you list as top drawer (Highlights are whole career).

Kittel clearly has the most impressive palmares, but he's only 3 years younger than Cav, and last year won nothing of note. Viviani is the same age, and has been consistent, but never great. Bennett is 28 and is unlikely to go to a grand tour this year.  Jacobsen and Ackerman are youngsters and have done almost nothing as professionals.
In the 5 "fallow" years, Cavendish has more grand tour wins than everyone on this list except Gaviria and Kittel have in their entire career. No doubt Gaviria, Groenewegen, and Ewan (if his new team will take him) have time and pedigree and will get many more stage wins from this point forwards than Cavendish will. But if he can get fit, he could be in amongst them for a year or 2. Likewise, if Kittel can get back to 2017, he could clean up...

I can't work out if you're saying that Cav is currently not a top ranked sprinter (agreed - he needs to show he's got his fitness back), or if you are saying that the new breed are significantly better than those who Cav raced in the past.
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 March, 2019, 01:46:32 pm
I'm saying Cavendish is no longer at the top. That is self-evident, but I'm saying it is because regardless of illness he is too long in the tooth.
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Karla on 15 March, 2019, 12:52:16 pm
Quote from: Ian H on 12 March, 2019, 01:02:50 pm
Quote from: Hot Flatus on 12 March, 2019, 11:45:28 am
I think the point being is that the others didn't crash.

Not crashing is an integral part of being a good sprinter.

As are taking risks and being lucky.

Yeah, but e.g. in 2014 his crash was due to trying too hard to fit through a gap that wasn't there, when a few years before he wouldn't have been fighting for the gap, he'd have been off the front.
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: mattc on 15 March, 2019, 02:42:36 pm
“I'd rather have lucky generals sprinters than good fast ones!"
- Bonaparte Oleg Tinkoff
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Mr Larrington on 16 March, 2019, 10:40:21 am
A Greipel:Oi!  11 stages of the Tour, 4 at the Vuelta, 7 on the Giro, 3 x national road race champion!  And not dead!
Omnes:You're 36, though.  Also, MUNKEH!!1!
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: DuncanM on 18 March, 2019, 11:23:23 am
Quote from: Mr Larrington on 16 March, 2019, 10:40:21 am
A Greipel:Oi!  11 stages of the Tour, 4 at the Vuelta, 7 on the Giro, 3 x national road race champion!  And not dead!
Omnes:You're 36, though.  Also, MUNKEH!!1!
He's in Hot Flatus' second tier list with Kristoff, Demare, and Cav (among others).
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: Hot Flatus on 18 March, 2019, 01:05:28 pm
And that is because Greipel is now a second tier sprinter. His palmares are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Bolshie Cav interview on TCP
Post by: mattc on 02 July, 2019, 08:09:52 pm
Looks like Cav's TdeF stage record dreams are as good as over. It was probably only ever a distant hope, but I still felt sad reading the news today :(

Quote
@JohnMacLeary
The last time Mark Cavendish did not start the Tour de France, the boy Robbie McEwen won the green jersey, Michael 'chicken legs' Rasmussen took the polka dot and Floyd Landis claimed yellow, briefly. That may seem like a very long time ago, because it is.

10:17 AM - 2 Jul 2019