Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 04 March, 2019, 12:31:00 pm

Title: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: quixoticgeek on 04 March, 2019, 12:31:00 pm

The mens OHN race set off with a 10 minute headstart on the womens race, but the women were so fast, they caught up with the mens race, the womens race had to be stopped. The one woman break away - Nicole Hanselmann - was given a headstart, but was soon reeled in, ending up 74th.

It's not the first time something like this has happened, there was a race in Ireland where the women set off first, then had to stop to let the mens race go past, before continuing.

It's an interesting situation. When the men catch up with the women, the women are asked to get out the way for the men. When the women catch up the men, the women have to stop and let the men get away, messing up the race for the women.

There has to be a better solution to this. Would a half hour gap be enough? An hour? Should the faster race always have right of way?

How can we prevent this?

J

Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 04 March, 2019, 03:19:59 pm
I realize I know nothing about the organisation of races but why does one race have to get out of the way of the other? It should be easy enough to tell which race a particular rider is in, for instance using different coloured numbers. In fact, I'm sure it's standard at lower levels to different categories racing together. So is it just because of the number of riders on the road at one time and place? Or would it actually cause problems (what and who for?) if the order or riders crossing the finishing line went eg 1st man, 2nd man, 1st woman, 3rd man, 2nd woman, 4th man, 3rd woman, etc?
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: rafletcher on 04 March, 2019, 03:46:08 pm
I think it was the trailing caravan of cars the lead lady rider caught, not a rider in the men's race, but still, it shouldn't have happened. The easiest is to leave more than 10 minutes between the starts. And it's simply daft letting a women's race off in front of a men's race on the same course, given the known differences in speed.
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: mattc on 04 March, 2019, 03:52:35 pm
Nice idea, but these are two different races - they're supposed to be separate, and as you suggest, the sheer size of a combined field would be trouble. (probably blows their risk Ass't and/or road closure permissions thingummys as well)

And no, I don't have a constructive answer  ;D
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: trekker12 on 04 March, 2019, 05:00:53 pm

It's an interesting situation. When the men catch up with the women, the women are asked to get out the way for the men. When the women catch up the men, the women have to stop and let the men get away, messing up the race for the women.


I would suggest this is TV related. Men's races are televised, sadly, most women's races aren't and TV producers wouldn't want 'their' race interfered with.

The only real solution is to run them on separate days or one in the morning and one in the afternoon. This happens on the bigger races but I'd suggest the organisation and road closure costs are more prohibitive on a race which isn't a monument.
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: giropaul on 04 March, 2019, 05:55:23 pm
I think that it’s all much more mundane than is being suggested.

The men’s race is much longer, so the peloton tends to amble off. It was a bit iffy weather wise so my experience of being in a team car at such races would suggest that there was a sort of truce for a while to allow riders to warm up, go back to the cars with overshoes, gilets etc.

The women’s race had an unforeseen mega- fast start, one rider ( who won’t be popular in the ranks) went off at full gas. Hence she came within scope of the men’s race convoy ( typically a few km long)

The protocol for the race jury is clear, if there is risk of an obstruction ( train, protest etc) the times are taken and the race re-started with the original time gaps. Nothing to do with if it’s a men’s or a women’s race.

Actually, this tends to obscure the fact that most big races now have a women’s race with the same start and finish as the men’s. That’s a huge move forward from the women being on another day or having a criterium. The profile of women’s racing is the highest it’s ever been, especially in Belgium. There was another big women’s race in Belgium at the weekend ( Hageland) also televised ( and no men’s race there)

Samyn on Tuesday televised as well ( a women’s race included)

Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 March, 2019, 06:04:37 pm
^exactly what I was thinking. Men's race is 200k, women's is 122k. The men aren't going to go from the gun.
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: quixoticgeek on 04 March, 2019, 06:27:28 pm
^exactly what I was thinking. Men's race is 200k, women's is 122k. The men aren't going to go from the gun.

Why does the mens race have to be longer than the womens race? It's 2019...

J
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 March, 2019, 10:18:48 pm
Dunno. Are women's tennis games still shorter?
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: fimm on 05 March, 2019, 11:34:24 am
^exactly what I was thinking. Men's race is 200k, women's is 122k. The men aren't going to go from the gun.

Why does the mens race have to be longer than the womens race? It's 2019...

J
Because the UCI are a bunch of misogynous dinosaurs, as you know...

I agree with Giropaul. One other thought I had was that given that the women's race is shorter than the men's race they must have left the route that the men were taking at some point - possibly the race organisers thought that even if the women went off faster (for the reasons given by Giropaul) the men would be on the separate route before there was any chance of the women catching them?
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Frank9755 on 06 March, 2019, 08:44:33 am
What did all the others in the women's race think about it?  If the one who made the break caught the men's race she could draft, giving her a potentially very big advantage which would have been unfair to all the others.

At Hillingdon we have mens and womens races (and different levels) riding at once.  When the men's peloton passes the women's one (or other overtake) you need to keep alert as there often seems to be a crash at that point. 
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: paddyirish on 06 March, 2019, 09:07:34 am
The race organisers publish a timetable of when they expect the riders to reach various points along the route assuming they travel at 3 different average speeds (39,41 and 43km/h for the men) and 34, 36, 38km/h for the women.

The women's is here (https://www.omloophetnieuwsblad.be/en/ohn/elite-women/race)

and the men's is here (https://www.omloophetnieuwsblad.be/en/ohn/elite-men/race)

The men's slowest speed estimated is 39km/h and the womens fastest is 38km/h.

The organisers explain their thinking here (https://www.omloophetnieuwsblad.be/en/ohn/elite-women/news/flanders-classics-neutralization-womens-race) in an post race statement.

Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: paddyirish on 06 March, 2019, 09:17:30 am
So assuming the men travelled at 39km/h, for the catch to be made at 30km, the lead woman must have been averaging 47...
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: mattc on 06 March, 2019, 09:33:07 am
So assuming the men travelled at 39km/h, for the catch to be made at 30km, the lead woman must have been averaging 47...
But that assumption would be wrong - read the report you linked to! :)
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: fimm on 06 March, 2019, 09:37:52 am
So assuming the men travelled at 39km/h, for the catch to be made at 30km, the lead woman must have been averaging 47...
The organisers' statement says the men were doing less than 30km/h, so it's all their fault, the lazy so-and-sos  ;)

I like the fact that they do this: (quoted from the link)
"As we do since 2018, we presented all men’s and women’s teams jointly in the iconic ‘t Kuipke during an amazing show. Right after, we lined up the men’s and women’s race alongside each other at the Emile Clauslaan for their respective starts. The Elite Men took off just eight minutes before the Elite Women in order to keep the numerous fans and the nice atmosphere at the start site for the women’s start as well."
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 March, 2019, 09:38:39 am
I'm wondering why her director didn't use the team radio to warn her, 'Take it easy now Nicole, you've got a huge lead and you're going to get tangled up in the men's race if you carry on like this.' Come to that, she would have seen it herself. Maybe they were going so slowly (the report does say under 30km/h at times) she was bound to be reeled in if she did that.

So in the long term it has implications for tactics in women's races (or any race which starts shortly after another on the same course): breakaways right from the start are useless.
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: DuncanM on 06 March, 2019, 12:32:36 pm
Breakaways right from the start are always useless! :)
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Phil W on 06 March, 2019, 12:40:03 pm
I'm wondering why her director didn't use the team radio to warn her, 'Take it easy now Nicole, you've got a huge lead and you're going to get tangled up in the men's race if you carry on like this.' Come to that, she would have seen it herself. Maybe they were going so slowly (the report does say under 30km/h at times) she was bound to be reeled in if she did that.

So in the long term it has implications for tactics in women's races (or any race which starts shortly after another on the same course): breakaways right from the start are useless.

Maybe the men thought it was an Audax and didn't want to exceed the 30km/h limit?
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 March, 2019, 12:54:26 pm
I hope they stopped for beans on toast half way round!
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: fimm on 06 March, 2019, 02:18:57 pm
Article with a variety of opinions here:
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/6105/from-sexist-to-understandable-what-the-omloop-neutralisation-fiasco-says-about-womens
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: mattc on 06 March, 2019, 03:04:17 pm
I think they've given away their intentions there with that little word "fiasco" ...

Meanwhile, I need some Flemish translation help. What does the 2nd word here mean:
"Vlaamse openingsweekend"
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: giropaul on 06 March, 2019, 03:36:49 pm
I think they've given away their intentions there with that little word "fiasco" ...

Meanwhile, I need some Flemish translation help. What does the 2nd word here mean:
"Vlaamse openingsweekend"

Opening weekend of the Flemish Cycling season
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: mattc on 06 March, 2019, 03:42:08 pm
really???
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: jsabine on 07 March, 2019, 01:45:57 am
Yes, really.
</straight bat>
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 March, 2019, 12:31:10 pm
Breakaways right from the start are always useless! :)

Plucky J Durand:Bof!  You Eengleesh!
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: andrew_s on 08 March, 2019, 09:59:11 pm
Breakaways right from the start are always useless! :)
Emma Pooley attacked from the start of the 2009 Montreal World Cup, and stayed away to win by 1m14
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: MattH on 18 March, 2019, 06:54:14 am
A bit late to this...

It gets interesting in regional UK races. Round our way in the last couple of years there has been problems getting a big enough field for a women's race, but holding it on the same day as a men's race gets around some of the cost issues. Running them simultaneously has the advantage that the accredited marshals etc. only have to be around for half of the day, you are only disrupting the area you are racing in for the morning, and you don't need the hall for so long.

However, you do need twice as many cars, and additional other officials (commissaires, NEG, lead car drivers) so you aren't halving the costs.

One I did last year was supposed to have a 10 minute gap between races, but looking at the field the decision was taken to roll out together, then de-neutralise the men seconds before the women. That meant the women couldn't do a breakaway from the start, which is unlikely anyway, but they were unlikely to be lapped. It got close to the second happening :-)
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: JonBuoy on 03 April, 2019, 08:39:32 pm

The mens OHN race set off with a 10 minute headstart on the womens race, but the women were so fast, they caught up with the mens race, the womens race had to be stopped. The one woman break away - Nicole Hanselmann - was given a headstart, but was soon reeled in, ending up 74th.

It's not the first time something like this has happened, there was a race in Ireland where the women set off first, then had to stop to let the mens race go past, before continuing.

It's an interesting situation. When the men catch up with the women, the women are asked to get out the way for the men. When the women catch up the men, the women have to stop and let the men get away, messing up the race for the women.

There has to be a better solution to this. Would a half hour gap be enough? An hour? Should the faster race always have right of way?

How can we prevent this?

J

Not today in Dwars door Vlaanderen (http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/dwars-door-vlaanderen-women-2019/results/):

Quote
The men's peloton was competing at the fastest-expected time of arrival, while the women's race, because of the early delays, were now racing at the slowest ETA.

The women's peloton reached the three climbs, beginning with the Kluisberg, just ahead of the men's field. In addition, two crashes that happened almost simultaneously in the women's race required emergency medical services.

Orgnaisers neutralise the men's race to avoid the two categories merging but more so, to allow for an ambulance to drive on the course to get to the crashed riders.
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: giropaul on 04 April, 2019, 10:57:00 am
I wondered who else would spot that one.

I more general terms, some good coverage on Eurosport of the women’s alongside the men’s racing over the Belgian calendar. Compared with even 5 years ago there’s been a big change for the good.
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: quixoticgeek on 05 April, 2019, 12:14:35 pm
Not today in Dwars door Vlaanderen (http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/dwars-door-vlaanderen-women-2019/results/):

Quote
The men's peloton was competing at the fastest-expected time of arrival, while the women's race, because of the early delays, were now racing at the slowest ETA.

The women's peloton reached the three climbs, beginning with the Kluisberg, just ahead of the men's field. In addition, two crashes that happened almost simultaneously in the women's race required emergency medical services.

Orgnaisers neutralise the men's race to avoid the two categories merging but more so, to allow for an ambulance to drive on the course to get to the crashed riders.

Yep, I saw that. It was to allow an ambulance to reach an injured rider. Had there not been an ambulance, would they have done the same thing?

J
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Karla on 06 April, 2019, 04:38:48 am
Errrrr, yes.  There was a blockage so they neutralised the race behind.  As always. 
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: quixoticgeek on 06 April, 2019, 08:08:50 am
Errrrr, yes.  There was a blockage so they neutralised the race behind.  As always.

Not as always, at least one womens race in Ireland last year had to move over so the mens race behind could go past.

J
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: Karla on 06 April, 2019, 05:43:37 pm
Errrrr, yes.  There was a blockage so they neutralised the race behind.  As always.

Not as always, at least one womens race in Ireland last year had to move over so the mens race behind could go past.

J

You mean the national champs in 2017 I take it?
Title: Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 April, 2019, 12:12:37 am

You mean the national champs in 2017 I take it?

Yep.

J