Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: aidan.f on 29 May, 2013, 12:28:27 pm

Title: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: aidan.f on 29 May, 2013, 12:28:27 pm

Hi folks:
This  is not just about  good manners more a  few tips  on how  to set up your  lights for comfortable group riding.
 'brighter is not  better' when in a group,

1. Don't have a full on flashing laser on the back at  eye  level - well actually do have one for if you are  on your own, but fit it  somewhere like the seat post where you can switch it  off.  Have a constant lamp lower down e.g. on your rack If you go down to the  seat-stays you can up the brightness without dazzling other  riders.

2. Front lights: If you are  being  followed by  someone with  brighter  lights than yours  mounted high up you get a dancing  shadow  which is  good for  hiding potholes. Do you really want the  person just in front of your wheel to be half blinded?  Again, low down is  best. German standard headlamps, with a cut-off beam are good. You will also be  doing  yourself a  favour with this  type of  set up if you find  yourself in wet or foggy conditions as  the beam does  not  reflect back on you. As most  people will carry two lights have  a think about how to  set up a full and dipped beam arrangement for when you are on the front of or sitting in the group.

If  you take  this advice you will be  welcomed  into the groups that make night  riding on an event  like this  so much  fun  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: LEE on 29 May, 2013, 12:49:20 pm

It doesn't matter how low you mount your rear light, if it's pointing up then it's a pain for the riders behind.

In my opinion, for maximum safety effect, a rear light should be set so it shines horizontally and never up.

This will give you maximum visibility 100-200 yards back down the road, to car drivers, and minimum visbility 10 yards back down the road , to cyclists.

Put your bike on level ground, with a wall behind you.  Walk your bike as far from the wall as possible (so you can still see the beam from the light shining on the wall) and check that the beam is roughly still at waist to head height, but no higher. (There's bound to be some spillage)

Most car drivers' eyes are lower than you think, waist to chest height normally.
It's car drivers' eyes you should be aiming at.  Crouch down and look back towards your bike from 50 yards.
If you aim at car drivers' eyes then you won't be aiming at cyclists' eyes (apologies to 'bent riders).

I've never seen the point of a rear light pointing up or down.  Rear LEDs are so focussed that it negates the point of having them.
Set correctly however, they are extremely bright, even at long distances.

...all IN MY OPINION of course.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: marcusjb on 29 May, 2013, 12:55:14 pm

And don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice - all it will do is bounce up and down like a Buckeroo and serve little purpose in be visible to drivers and will dazzle other riders in the group on a frequent basis.

I am finding Fibre Flares the most 'friendly' light for group riding (based on having been behind people with them, I now use one attached to my Bagman).  Soft light, but very visible.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: rogerzilla on 29 May, 2013, 12:58:43 pm

The main thing for group riding is to switch LEDs to "steady" unless you're in a streetlit area, when flashing is more tolerable.  The FibreFlare is unusually offensive in flashing mode, but has been described (by mattc) as quite comforting, like a one-bar electric fire, on steady.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 01:03:52 pm

Good post sleepy  :thumbsup:

All I would add is perhaps:
Flashing lights - front OR back - just don't bother. They annoy almost everyone, for negligible benefit.
(My opinion - and that of dozens of riders I have talked to - and of the PBP organisers, who banned the things years ago! )


Also: at night, consider riding 2-a-breast as much as possible. You'll chat more, keeping eachother awake, and will BENEFIT from eachother's front lights, none of this brightest light casting shadows problem.

EDIT: oh, and ...
Don't get a bright head/helmet torch; or if you do, leave it mostly off in a group. If you can't see why, lend yours to a friend and try having a conversation with them ...

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Mr Fitz on 29 May, 2013, 01:21:10 pm

Quote from: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 01:03:52 pm

Good post sleepy  :thumbsup:

+1

Thanks all for the good advice. 

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Deano on 29 May, 2013, 01:24:09 pm

So other than the FibreFlare, what is a decent rear light for night riding? I generally use Smart lights and similar (e.g. the Planet X clones), which are a bit unpleasant to be stuck behind unless they're angled downwards.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 01:27:58 pm

I'd say 2-3* average lights (from a good brand for reliabilty), instead of any single uber-bright jobbie. And anything with a large reflector area. Smart old 'kidneys' are my favourite (and the tuppence Wilko clones!)


_{*Also gives redundancy benefits.}

I've got one of these (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Ever-Ready-Red-Rear-Vintage-Cycle-Light-Lamp-/00/s/MTU3N1gxNjAw/$T2eC16hHJF0E9nmFTMMiBQ5z17jM,Q~~60_35.JPG) if anyone has a couple of quid spare!

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Feline on 29 May, 2013, 01:57:45 pm

I would recommend the Smart R1 as a rear light, it actually has a group rider mode that gives a steady light on half power. It also comes with a bracket that will fit most seat stays as well as the seat post one. It does a DETH laser and psychedelic mode too for when you're one your own.

I currently have one on each seat stay, but Simon has pointed out to me a potential flaw with this in that cars can think you're another car a long way ahead in the distance. I might move mine to different heights to prevent this.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: jogler on 29 May, 2013, 02:23:42 pm

Quote from: Feline on 29 May, 2013, 01:57:45 pm

I would recommend the Smart R1 as a rear light, it actually has a group rider mode that gives a steady light on half power.

+1

I have one attached to the light loop on a Topeak Aero Wedge on the Longsatff,same for the Trek & a spare Wedge/R1 combo for another bike(usually g.d.'s Trek)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mcshroom on 29 May, 2013, 03:21:15 pm

I have a Cateye TL-LD500 on the rear of my bike. It's rack mountable (by screwing it on) so it's unlikely to get ejected and can be left on the bike when I leave it. Surprisingly good little light actually.

Another tip would be to check that any luggage you are using on your bike does not hide the rear light. I discovered this with a tent over a different rack mounted rear light and had to rely on a mudguard-mounted light only (Spanninga Pixeo).

I suppose that leads to a third tip, a mudguard mounted light is easy to get lined up straight, again can stay on the bike full time, and is unlikely to be obscured by luggage.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: jogler on 29 May, 2013, 03:34:36 pm

I also have one of these

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-tl-ld1100-led-rear-light/

attached to the ligh-mount of the rear pannier.

Not only is it very bright in static mode it has a scrolling feature which IMO is kinder than flashing to the retina of those riding behind me.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: eck on 29 May, 2013, 03:47:12 pm

Quote from: marcusjb on 29 May, 2013, 12:55:14 pm

I am finding Fibre Flares the most 'friendly' light for group riding (based on having been behind people with them, I now use one attached to my Bagman).  Soft light, but very visible.

+1 for Fibre Flares. Some of us rode the last stage of the Berwick & Beattock 400 with a rider (ramcityrocker otp?) who had one: it was a nice light to ride behind, but very visible. I might just get one.  :)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 03:47:41 pm

Sorry if this is a bit preachy, but I have ridden quite a few night rides these last few months and the standard of lighting adopted by fellow audaxers is somewhat mixed with some being appalling.  I find this surprising, because as soon as the sun goes down then most audaxers put on all sorts of reflective gear, so it's clear they understand the issues, it's just clear that some don't understand how to maximise (or don't care about doing so) their lights to minimise the risks from other road users (including cyclists).

Front lights have their own problems, the mains one being getting a light that's bright enough to light the moon and yet doesn't dazzle oncoming traffic: just get a decent B&M dyno lamp, they have a cut-off at about 4º above the horizon, just like a car's dipped headlight (although without the "kick"), and are more than bright enough to ride solo in mid-Wales in absolute darkness at 50kph (they haven't discovered street lighting there yet*).  Problem solved.

The aims of rear lights should be:

• Be seen by cars
• Don't blind other cyclists
• Be at least a bit legal

The big problems with rear lights appear to be:

• Crap lights
• Lights in a crap position
• Good lights on crap settings

So start with a good light: the best rear lights have a large surface area and aren't very bright: these give other road users the greatest chance to see you and to judge distance to you accurately. Cateye do some pretty decent rear lights like the Reflex, as do Busch & Müller: particularly the ones that include a reflector, which increases the surface area of the bit of red you're showing to road users behind and may even be road-legal**.  Smart R1s are good lights as well, but you must use a reflector as well (they aren't road-legal on their own).  Preferably have two lights for redundancy as well as emphasising you're a bike. Fibre Flares are rubbish as a rear light, because you don't look like a bike with them and as a car driver they are difficult to gauge distance to in the dark because the light is too soft; they're also not legal, so you still need a proper rear light; they are friendly to other cyclists, though.  Those pathetic little single-LED blinky lights embedded in a rubber assembly are rubbish verging on "just run me over, I deserve it"; most single-LED lamps are about as bad, even when set up correctly.

Set the lights up one above the other: as simonp pointed out, side-by-side and you look like a car in the distance, so drivers behind may overestimate your speed and come up behind rather sharpish; one-above-the-other and you look like a bike.  The biggest mistake I have suffered from (on others' bikes) is that the lights are attached to the seat stays using compact brackets, which prevents the lights being pointed down far enough: the rear lights MUST point straight backwards, NOT upwards or downwards.  If the bracket prevents you achieving a horizontal light beam then it's either the wrong light or the wrong bracket (for that part of the bike).  If you have  Smart R1s then you can get brackets designed for seat stays, like these on eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-CL18-Rear-Bike-Cycle-Light-Rear-Seat-Stay-Bracket-/130864105630).  If you have the 5-led Night Flares then these should NOT be mounted on the seat stays, because there isn't a bracket available to make them properly vertical in order to shine their light straight backwards (and they're not legal on their own either), although mounted to a rack they are very effective.

The point about rear lights is for other road users to see you, recognise what you are, and to cooperate on the road with you appropriately.  Drivers are just like you and me and if flashing lights are annoying to cyclists, they are annoying to drivers too.  The biggest problem with flashing lights is that when the light goes out, drivers behind can't see where you are; this is made even worse with flashing Smart R1s: the LED is soooo very bright that when the lamp is in the "on" state, it's blinding, and when it's in the "off" state then you can't see anything anyway, so really the worst of both worlds.  Just set all your rear lights to steady and keep the laser-beam setting for high-risk situations, e.g. riding along dual carriageways, fog, heavy rain.  If you have a legal reflector (you do have one, don't you?), car headlamps will light this up as well, adding to the overall effect of "cyclist".  And nothing else quite screams "cyclist" in the dark as pedal reflectors, but that's a whole other topic ...

I have a dyno-driven B&M Toplight Braketec (http://chestercycling.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/toplight-line-plus-braketec-rear-light/) just above the rear wheel (this is a German-legal light and reflector**); and because it's coupled to a B&M Luxos U on the front, which has an on-off switch on the handlebar, I can switch this rear light on while moving; the brake-light effect isn't very convincing, though.  About 18" above that light I have a Smart R1 (http://www.parker-international.co.uk/16958/Smart-Lights-Lunar-R1-1-Watt-Rear-Cycle-Light.html), which I don't usually use unless I am on my own, or the conditions require a "set-to-stun" light (fast and busy roads, poor visibility). And just above that I have an old Cateye 5-LED LD500 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cateye-TL-LD500-Rear-Light/dp/B002LK62NG) set to steady (sometimes flashing in the day, but it's not very bright, just gets a bit of extra daylight attention).  The overall effect is of two or three lights one above the other, none of them over-bright, none flashing, two are also reflectors, and enough light going backwards to alert other road users that I am there, that I am a cyclist, and for them to judge distance to me accurately in order to pass safely***.

The law is also quite clear (http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations): in the hours of darkness, you MUST have a red reflector on the rear and it must be visible only from the rear; you MUST have a suitable red light on the rear that must point backwards and be visible only from the rear. They can be one and the same unit.  You don't need either during daytime.

As for group etiquette: if you set your lights up properly for road use on your own, the chances are you won't be causing any problems to other cyclists.  If other cyclists are complaining then you really should look at your set-up, because firstly it's annoying other road users but more importantly it may be ineffective and even putting you in danger of getting knocked off.  (When I rode London-Cambridge last year with my Smart R1 blinking away, I heard other cyclists saying "let's get in front of this bozo, his light's blinding me", and that was in the daytime! I switched it off after they'd passed and that was when I started thinking about effective lighting.)

As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflectors (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards.  And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  Apparently nobody would buy the legal lights, because the standards are a bit out of date and so the lights are rubbish, they always buy the blinky LED ones instead.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.

And one more thing: don't forget to check your side-on lights/reflector profile, because cars pulling out of junctions (who are neither in front of or behind you) need to be able to see you as well.

* Not strictly true.
** Because of EU cross-border trading law, a lamp or reflector designed and built to an alternative European spec of an equivalent safety standard to British Standards is also legal for use in the UK.  Only one reflector and light on the bike must be legal in the dark, the rest can be anything, so long as they don't dazzle or otherwise adversely affect other road users.  Don't quote me on this, I read it somewhere.
*** Nothing's foolproof, though.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 May, 2013, 03:53:34 pm

Quote from: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 03:47:41 pm

As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflects (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards. And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.

Maybe because the law is out of date and even rear LED lights from poundland are adequate?  This is said as someone who drives - as long as the batteries are fresh then the cheapest of leds show up.

I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Dibdib on 29 May, 2013, 03:54:52 pm

Currently a fan of my rear set-up - a Cateye LD600 in ripple (or "nightrider"  ;D) mode which saves battery power while being less obnoxious than a flasher, and a steady FibreFlare on the offside seatstay for that warming glow.

Still not convinced about my front setup though, two Cateye  4xAA lamps mounted one on each fork blade's rack mount. I think I'm going to have to rethink that one somehow.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: LEE on 29 May, 2013, 04:02:28 pm

As much as I love my 2 x Cateye LD610 setup I feel MUCH safer when I'm wearing a lot of Scotchlite retro-reflective.

As Wilkyboy suggests, pedal reflectors scream "cyclist" but so do Scotchlite ankle bands.  In fact it's sometimes surprising, until you see a flash photograph, just how much Scotchlite you have on you (Schwalbe Marathon tyres anybody?).

I keep my PBP Hi-Viz rolled up on my saddlebag, Scotchlite facing outwards. 
I know, as a motorist, just how well Scotchlite "lights up" in my headlights, sometimes before, and brighter than, any rear light.

Again, as a motorist, if I had to recommend anything, in addition to a light, it would be Scotchlite ankle bands.  They really are very noticeable.

Note. If you have refelectives on helmet and body as well as ankles, it gives an approaching motorist a good sense of scale/distance/speed, something that a single light source just doesn't (and why cars pull out on motorcycles a lot at night).

Quote

Currently a fan of my rear set-up - a Cateye LD600 in ripple (or "nightrider"  ) mode

Since my Ringtone is "Nightrider theme" I can achieve the full effect by holding phone to my LD610 on Nightrider strobe mode.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: L CC on 29 May, 2013, 04:03:28 pm

I've always thought ours is OK- we have a wide smart thingy on feeble, a cheap smart blinky on feeble and a fibre flare.

I think the necessity for being seen from miles away by cars is overrated. I don't need a car to see my bike from Ohio, only from 100m. And to be honest, they probably see that ray of white light heading up the road before they see anything red behind. I'm happy they think I'm walking, till they get closer.

How do we look from behind, wheelsuckers?

(Please only comment on the lighting. How my arse blocks out the sun is a subject for a different thread.)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:04:02 pm

Quote from: mrcharly on 29 May, 2013, 03:53:34 pm

Quote from: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 03:47:41 pm

As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflects (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards. And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.

Maybe because the law is out of date and even rear LED lights from poundland are adequate?  This is said as someone who drives - as long as the batteries are fresh then the cheapest of leds show up.

I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.

For lights to be legal in the UK, they must be stamped BS6102/3, or must comply to some equivalent European-country's national standard (e.g. Germany).  You'll often find lights stamped BS6102/2, but that's just for reflectors, so not a legal light.  Blinky lights are legal so long as they flash between 1 and 4 times a second and emit at least 4 candela, but if they have a steady state setting as well then they must comply with BS6102/3 in order to be legal (even if used as a blinky light). This is all pedantry [edit: on my part], but at some point on the scale of safety/cooperation/compliance it becomes relevant.

A few degrees up or down isn't really the point: yes there are lights designed to point slightly differently.  My experience is that the light will have a horizontal or vertical line, often where the casing splits open, on it to facilitate correct alignment, and at this position the beam may extend slightly down.  It's an uninteresting exception, though, as the vast majority of lights are most effective when mounted exactly vertically so that the light is emitted straight backwards.  The bigger problem is lights attached to seat stays, as they don't point down at all, but straight up into other cyclists' faces, which can be uncomfortable ... it is one way of forcing others to take the front wheel, though ...

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:08:24 pm

Quote from: fboab on 29 May, 2013, 04:03:28 pm

I've always thought ours is OK- we have a wide smart thingy on feeble, a cheap smart blinky on feeble and a fibre flare.

I think the necessity for being seen from miles away by cars is overrated. I don't need a car to see my bike from Ohio, only from 100m. And to be honest, they probably see that ray of white light heading up the road before they see anything red behind. I'm happy they think I'm walking, till they get closer.

How do we look from behind, wheelsuckers?

(Please only comment on the lighting. How my arse blocks out the sun is a subject for a different thread.)

I've sucked your wheel in the daytime, your lights seemed fine when off, although ISTR you've got something mounted on the seat stay that could do with being straightened?  It's been a while, though (G&YF and I was on the wheel of the sucker on the wheel of the sucker on your wheel, so I didn't get a good view of either your lights or anything else).

And Ohio's closer than you think*

* That's probably not true, is it.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: L CC on 29 May, 2013, 04:09:55 pm

Quote from: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:08:24 pm

you've got something mounted on the seat stay that could do with being straightened?

Fibreflare on the offside mudguard rack.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: LEE on 29 May, 2013, 04:10:56 pm

Quote from: mrcharly on 29 May, 2013, 03:53:34 pm

I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.

I guess we're saying that lights should be mounted optimally rather than just bolted on to any available surface.

My Cateye LD610s are VERY bright along a fairly narrow axis.  They are quite dim in any other axis.  That makes them superb, when fixed low, and aligned horizontally, for cyclists close behind and motorists a long way off (100-200yards).

Other makes will be different but all will have an optimal setup, because LEDs will typically sit behind a lens to achieve their brightness.

PS.  I have a cheap Cateye seat-stay botch.  Photos to follow.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Greenbank on 29 May, 2013, 04:14:52 pm

Quote from: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:04:02 pm

For lights to be legal in the UK...

It's made a bit easier because, for you to be legal in the UK, only one of your lights (both front and rear) needs to be legal. Any additional lights on top of this do not have to comply with any particular standards apart from the obvious[1].

1. They shouldn't dazzle users behind. Red lights must not point forwards, white lights must not point backwards, etc.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:17:20 pm

Quote from: Paul Metcalfe on 29 May, 2013, 04:02:28 pm

... pedal reflectors scream "cyclist" but so do Scotchlite ankle bands ...

+1

I have little strips of orange reflective tape stuck to the front/back faces of my SPD pedals, and my shoes have reflective panels built into the heels (little white dots, but still very effective).

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:18:20 pm

Quote from: fboab on 29 May, 2013, 04:09:55 pm

Quote from: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:08:24 pm

you've got something mounted on the seat stay that could do with being straightened?

Fibreflare on the offside mudguard rack.

Ah, yes, FibreFlares as a secondary lamp make a lot of sense in bulking out the rear profile of your bike in the dark.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: simonp on 29 May, 2013, 04:31:15 pm

Quote from: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:04:02 pm

Quote from: mrcharly on 29 May, 2013, 03:53:34 pm

Quote from: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 03:47:41 pm

As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflects (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards. And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.

Maybe because the law is out of date and even rear LED lights from poundland are adequate?  This is said as someone who drives - as long as the batteries are fresh then the cheapest of leds show up.

I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.

For lights to be legal in the UK, they must be stamped BS6102/3, or must comply to some equivalent European-country's national standard (e.g. Germany).

I think it's worse than that. AIUI, a light can be stamped BS6012/3, and yet not be legal, because the law is an ass, and refers to a specific revision of BS6102/3, which predates LED lights. The standard was updated ages ago, yet the law still refers to the old light. They then added the stupid flashing LED rule.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: wilkyboy on 29 May, 2013, 04:52:03 pm

Quote from: simonp on 29 May, 2013, 04:31:15 pm

... because the law is an ass ...

+1  http://cars.aol.co.uk/2013/04/03/government-promises-action-on-dazzling-bicycle-lights/ (I'm now not sure whether my front's not too bright when reading this?)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: LEE on 29 May, 2013, 04:54:23 pm

Sorry to hijack this for a product question but does anyone know the brand of rear LED that emits a "frikkin deth ray" pulse every second or so?

I saw one on a ride once, in daylight, and it was very eye-catching.

I ride a lot from bright sunshine into "tree-tunnels" where it's almost dark.  One of those lights may be perfect for such situations.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 May, 2013, 04:59:51 pm

The eye of sauron?

Kim has one of those. I tihnk it is a radbot 1000

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: simonp on 29 May, 2013, 05:26:11 pm

More here:

http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Photometric-Testing-Uncovers-Arms-Race-4744051.S.229948864?qid=998d1420-c66c-4640-a765-00afbfc46e6d&goback=.gna_4744051

In particular it seems that the 70 candela limit is being questioned. It seems it should be more like 700 for a pair of dipped headlights. A German approved light would not exceed this if adjusted correctly, if the comments in the page I've linked to are accurate.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: vorsprung on 29 May, 2013, 05:29:43 pm

If your rear light is a Magicshine MJ-818 then I will either be a) dropping you asap or if this isn't possible b) stopping to let you go on

If you commute in fog or something this is probably a great light to have.  But if I am on your wheel then I won't share that opinion

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: simonp on 29 May, 2013, 05:43:10 pm

I've deliberately dropped a group after it was caught by riders with excessively bright dazzling rear lights who joined our group. I had to bide my time and wait for the group to miss a turn in order to have an opportunity.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: LEE on 29 May, 2013, 05:51:22 pm

Quote from: mrcharly on 29 May, 2013, 04:59:51 pm

The eye of sauron?

Kim has one of those. I tihnk it is a radbot 1000

It was De Sisti and a Dinotte 400R.  Truly bright (possibly too bright for group riding at night but gets you noticed in daylight)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Somnolent on 29 May, 2013, 08:10:34 pm

Quote from: Paul Metcalfe on 29 May, 2013, 04:54:23 pm

Sorry to hijack this for a product question but does anyone know the brand of rear LED that emits a "frikkin deth ray" pulse every second or so?

I saw one on a ride once, in daylight, and it was very eye-catching.

I ride a lot from bright sunshine into "tree-tunnels" where it's almost dark.  One of those lights may be perfect for such situations.

Smart R2 has a "pulse" mode (as well as the usual "flash" mode)
2 x 1/2 watt LEDs may not qualify "as frikkin deth ray" but it's as bright as I want at the back.   
 

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: aidan.f on 29 May, 2013, 08:25:28 pm

Good discussion, can the LEL group captains set up deth-ray sin-bin and light angels bunches on the  road?

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: MAC on 29 May, 2013, 09:10:11 pm

Quote from: PpPete on 29 May, 2013, 08:10:34 pm

Smart R2 has a "pulse" mode (as well as the usual "flash" mode)
2 x 1/2 watt LEDs may not qualify "as frikkin deth ray" but it's as bright as I want at the back.

I bit like these PpPete?

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/984089_10151437414216186_2059386863_n.jpg)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Kim on 29 May, 2013, 10:24:28 pm

Quote from: mrcharly on 29 May, 2013, 04:59:51 pm

The eye of sauron?

Kim has one of those. I tihnk it is a radbot 1000

That's the one.  I've stopped using it on group rides (except in city traffic), as for every "That's really cool - flashing, but not headache-inducing" there's a "I keep getting distracted by your sinusoidal throbbing", even with it mounted at axle-height, well below the eyeline of a following rider.  The 4DToplight is perfectly adequate in that sort of situation anyway.

I use it when I'm on my own, though, as a recumbent lacks many 'bicycle' cues when viewed from behind, and it seems like excellent insurance against accusations of invisibility.  It's also good (in super-obnoxious mode) for fog and heavy rain in daylight.


If an audaxy n+1 ever happens, I'm going to come up with a rear lighting solution consisting of a moderate brightness high-surface-area static light, with an obnoxious flashing laser of death that can be easily switched on and off from the handlebars according to need.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 10:42:15 pm

There seems to be an ongoing debate about
"just how irritating is my irritating light - I don't find them much of a problem to follow. Surely being visible to motorists is a good thing?".

What perhaps folks should bear in mind, is the experience of riding at 2am after 300km (or nx300km in the context of this thread) with 3-10 bikes up ahead, each with a different configuration of lighting, some of them vvvveryy bright, some flashing, some pulsing/gyrating/jiving.

It's a unique experience!

[Also consider a driver trying to pass this lot at 2am, and what mental state he/she may be in.]

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Kim on 29 May, 2013, 10:55:22 pm

Quote from: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 10:42:15 pm

[Also consider a driver trying to pass this lot at 2am, and what mental state he/she may be in.]

Almost certainly a better state than the cyclists...  :-\

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 11:08:18 pm

Often ... but not always, I can assure you!

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Karla on 30 May, 2013, 02:03:57 am

Quote from: Paul Metcalfe on 29 May, 2013, 04:54:23 pm

Sorry to hijack this for a product question but does anyone know the brand of rear LED that emits a "frikkin deth ray" pulse every second or so?

I saw one on a ride once, in daylight, and it was very eye-catching.

I ride a lot from bright sunshine into "tree-tunnels" where it's almost dark.  One of those lights may be perfect for such situations.

Head over to TTF for discussions passim about which rear lights will get you seen on a dual carriageway in broad daylight.  I have a Lezyne Micro Drive for this purpose, others have the Exposure Flare which is supposedly a bit brighter but is not as well made.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: STMS on 30 May, 2013, 09:56:59 am

70/700 candela = Lumens? Lux? How do you work out what you have.

I have Twin B&M Cyo's (60) both the non German legal type.(I had one legal one not,just in case of German ride) but unfortunately got sent two of the same type when the damaged ones were replaced,(Glad they were replaced so didn't complain, also not planning any German rides  ;D)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Somnolent on 30 May, 2013, 09:59:18 am

Quote from: MiddleAgeCyclist on 29 May, 2013, 09:10:11 pm

Quote from: PpPete on 29 May, 2013, 08:10:34 pm

Smart R2 has a "pulse" mode (as well as the usual "flash" mode)
2 x 1/2 watt LEDs may not qualify "as frikkin deth ray" but it's as bright as I want at the back.

I bit like these PpPete?

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/984089_10151437414216186_2059386863_n.jpg)

That's the one.

Quote from: marcusjb on 29 May, 2013, 12:55:14 pm

And don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice - all it will do is bounce up and down like a Buckeroo and serve little purpose in be visible to drivers and will dazzle other riders in the group on a frequent basis.

I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: L CC on 30 May, 2013, 10:12:06 am

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 09:59:18 am

I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.

And there lies the rub.

I also find wiggling Carradice¹ mounted lights really irritating. No one (surely) sets out to have an irritating/overkill rear light set-up, and yet there's loads of them out there....


1:Other saddlebags are available. Some of them even hold your lights still.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Somnolent on 30 May, 2013, 10:22:02 am

Quote from: fboab on 30 May, 2013, 10:12:06 am

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 09:59:18 am

I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.

And there lies the rub.

I also find wiggling Carradice mounted lights really irritating. No one (surely) sets out to have an irritating/overkill rear light set-up, and yet there's loads of them out there....

Ours don't wiggle, and both marcusjb and chrisS/fboab are likely to be miles in front of us - but two voices against is enough.  They're coming off, and will think of another option for the second rear light.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: marcusjb on 30 May, 2013, 10:23:17 am

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 09:59:18 am

Quote from: marcusjb on 29 May, 2013, 12:55:14 pm

And don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice - all it will do is bounce up and down like a Buckeroo and serve little purpose in be visible to drivers and will dazzle other riders in the group on a frequent basis.

I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.

Maybe I should rephrase that then -  don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice without additional support to stop it bouncing about.  ;)

I guess it also depends on how much stuff you have in your Carradice - the loop on a half empty bag is going to provide a very different hanging angle to that on a full bag.

All in all, I am not convinced it is a sensible place to have a heavier light when riding in groups.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: jogler on 30 May, 2013, 10:31:22 am

Quote from: fboab on 30 May, 2013, 10:12:06 am

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 09:59:18 am

I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.

And there lies the rub.

I also find wiggling Carradice¹ mounted lights really irritating. No one (surely) sets out to have an irritating/overkill rear light set-up, and yet there's loads of them out there....


1:Other saddlebags are available. Some of them even hold your lights still.

I still have a light attached to the loop on my Barley but having long ago realised the legitimacy of fboab's statement it is supplemented by one of these

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-tl-ld600-led-rear-light/

secured to the Bagman with one of these

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-ld120500au100ld6001000-tail-light-bracket/

& one of these

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-arc-j82s-sl-universal-rack-fitting-light-bracket-prod553/

I do wonder how many cyclists appreciate the visual impact of their rear light setup? Ideally you need some to ride your bike in the dark while you observe from behind.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: L CC on 30 May, 2013, 10:51:50 am

While we're whinging about other-people's-lights, can I just say that if you have killah-DETH-lasers on the front of your bike, and you're sucking someone's wheel riding in a group, could you PLEASE follow at an offset? I don't like the driver to be picking a line in shadow. Basically, if your light is doing a fine job of picking out the reflectives on my arse, it's creating an equivalently enormous shadow in front.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Bunker22 on 30 May, 2013, 04:13:16 pm

Quote from: fboab on 30 May, 2013, 10:51:50 am

While we're whinging about other-people's-lights, can I just say that if you have killah-DETH-lasers on the front of your bike, and you're sucking someone's wheel riding in a group, could you PLEASE follow at an offset? I don't like the driver to be picking a line in shadow. Basically, if your light is doing a fine job of picking out the reflectives on my arse, it's creating an equivalently enormous shadow in front.

Thanks.

Maybe a reflective note saying 'If you can read this.....dip your F'ing headlight' could be worn on a rearward facing body part.  ;)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Kim on 30 May, 2013, 04:32:08 pm

Quote from: fboab on 30 May, 2013, 10:51:50 am

While we're whinging about other-people's-lights, can I just say that if you have killah-DETH-lasers on the front of your bike, and you're sucking someone's wheel riding in a group, could you PLEASE follow at an offset?

The corollary to this is when you do ride at an offset, the person in front who moves *into* the beam.  What's that about, other than being a newbie thing?  I could understand if they moved further to the left thinking you were about to overtake...

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 30 May, 2013, 04:38:43 pm

Never noticed such a thing. Does this happen often to you Kim? I can't see that it's much of a problem ...  :-\

(This does all reinforce my earlier comment that 2-abreast-is-best :) )

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Kim on 30 May, 2013, 04:46:00 pm

It's happened to me a few times on FNRttCs, Dun Run and the like, and fboab's comment made me think of it.  I assume by the time people are riding in the dark on audaxes they've acquired enough knowledge to realise what's going on.

Two (or more) abreast is undoubtedly the best approach to effective use of lighting in a group.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: jsabine on 30 May, 2013, 05:40:22 pm

Rabbit transfixed by headlights, basically ...

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Veloman on 30 May, 2013, 05:45:21 pm

Quote from: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 01:03:52 pm

Flashing lights - front OR back - just don't bother. They annoy almost everyone, for negligible benefit.
(My opinion - and that of dozens of riders I have talked to - and of the PBP organisers, who banned the things years ago! )

My bold/underline

And I think the PBP organisers have got it 100% correct.  It was a joy at night having to content with the flashing and I think they should be banned in all Audax events.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Bunker22 on 30 May, 2013, 05:50:36 pm

Quote from: Veloman on 30 May, 2013, 05:45:21 pm

Quote from: mattc on 29 May, 2013, 01:03:52 pm

Flashing lights - front OR back - just don't bother. They annoy almost everyone, for negligible benefit.
(My opinion - and that of dozens of riders I have talked to - and of the PBP organisers, who banned the things years ago! )

My bold/underline

And I think the PBP organisers have got it 100% correct.  It was a joy at night having to content with the flashing and I think they should be banned in all Audax events.

+1.  If LEL organisers could request that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: jsabine on 30 May, 2013, 06:05:17 pm

Quote from: bunker on 30 May, 2013, 05:50:36 pm

+1.  If LEL organisers could request require that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

FTFY

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Somnolent on 30 May, 2013, 11:30:56 pm

Quote from: jsabine on 30 May, 2013, 06:05:17 pm

Quote from: bunker on 30 May, 2013, 05:50:36 pm

+1.  If LEL organisers could request require that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

FTFY

I beg to differ.
Much of the LEL route is on rural roads with low motor traffic volumes (which is a good thing).
Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".
Sorry, but my safety takes precedence over your discomfort.... that's not to say I won't happily turn my lights to steady in the unlikely event of someone wheelsucking me me keeping up with a group.
 

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Phil W on 30 May, 2013, 11:32:39 pm

I have a fibre flare on my barley. The flare is so light it doesn't generally bounce around on the filled saddlebag. I also have a tail light / reflector  on the bottom of the mudguard

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: jsabine on 31 May, 2013, 01:26:50 am

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 11:30:56 pm

I beg to differ.

Yeah, I kind of meant while part of a group, but gave up accuracy in favour of a quick and snide 'FTFY' post.

That said, I was behind someone in London a couple of weeks ago who had a LASER of DETH rear light with an exceptionally fast blink rate, such that it was almost constantly illuminated. It was so unpleasant to look at that I'd bet most drivers' response would be to pass as quickly as they possibly could - I'm not convinced that blinkies, especially silly-bright ones, aren't a bit counterproductive even in the absence of a wheelsucker fellow rider.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: JennyB on 31 May, 2013, 06:56:43 am

Quote from: Kim on 30 May, 2013, 04:32:08 pm

The corollary to this is when you do ride at an offset, the person in front who moves *into* the beam.  What's that about, other than being a newbie thing?  I could understand if they moved further to the left thinking you were about to overtake...

Probably thinking "I can see the road so much better over there" Of course, once they're there, they can't.   :facepalm:

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: teethgrinder on 31 May, 2013, 08:55:19 am

Flashing rear lights are a throwback to the early days of rear diode lights when they weren't very bright. Making rear flashing lights legal in 2004 came 10 years too late. Lights are bright enough now.

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands.

I'm planning to avoid the problem by spending the nights asleep in bed. :)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: graydog68 on 31 May, 2013, 09:10:13 am

flashin leds can be a pain and eat your eyeball out at 1000yds!!! (about 760m to our not imp riders ;D)

in a pack ride I'd agree fixed light, or at least very high rate flash.
many cars not have a high pwm, and why it seems the rear light seems to drift.

however, with these eyeball eating leds even fixed rate will hurt you tired eyes.......

saftey first or overtake  :P

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Mr Fitz on 31 May, 2013, 09:30:00 am

Quote from: teethgrinder on 31 May, 2013, 08:55:19 am

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands.

For us recumbent riders reflective ankle bands probably aren't as visible from behind.  Nevertheless, due to the many useful comments in this thought-provoking thread, I have just bought a load of reflective tape which I intend to drape liberally over me and my bike.

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 11:30:56 pm

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".

I tend to agree with PpPete's view that - while flashing lights may not be any more visible than a steady light - they do broadcast to car drivers that there's a cyclist ahead.

However, for those LEL participants (including me) who would not necessarily be aware of the anti-social effects of their chosen personal safety system when riding in a group, I would add my vote for the LEL organisers to publish "strong recommendations" - either in a global email, or at registration.

And while we're on the subject of etiquette and respect for others, why not extend such "recommendations" to comment on other issues that may also be a potential cause of upset for some riders.  The use or not of noisy space blankets in the sleeping area comes to mind.  (I have taken the advice of many posters and purchased an emergency blanket - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/amk-heatsheet-emergency-bivvy/ Would this be deemed to constitute a noise hazard?  If so, I'd rather know in advance.)  I'm not suggesting that this should escalate into an EU Commission-style rule book, but one or two sensible guidelines on a few potentially touchy subjects could help avoid unintentional anti-social behaviour.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: L CC on 31 May, 2013, 09:45:14 am

I'm curious just what safety bonuses (bonii?) people think they're getting from 'better' rear lights wrt motorised traffic. They see you further away... and still pass like knobbers. Or they don't, and don't. We all know that some motorists will ignore your very existence whatever you're wearing in daylight, and fail to see something waved right in front of their face if they happen to be eyes down texting at the wrong moment. I don't use eye searing rear lights if I can possibly help it, because I really don't think it makes a jot of difference to my safety. I don't like flashing rear lights in any circumstances but Chris agrees with PpPete that 'flashing light screams cyclist' (I think it makes distance harder to judge) and that's why we have a flasher. I'm much more likely to have a cyclist behind me for hours who is bothered about it, than a car to whom my existence doesn't even merit a sideways glance, let alone any amendment to their driving. The splay of front lights is much more noticeable, and they actually help me. I commute in unlit lanes for 6 months of the year and ride regular overnight audaxes, and the only 'trouble' I've had in the hours of darkness was being yelled at by loons in a 4x4 coming up to Newport (Wales, not Essex). They saw us fine. Slowed down to have a bloody good gander and shouted abuse. I'd rather have been a bit more invisible, then.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 31 May, 2013, 09:58:31 am

Totally agree, boab. They seem to have very little benefit, and the "hard to judge distance" effect has been proven by actual scientists.

@Mr Fitz,

(click to show/hide)

Well the subject is actually "Lighting etiquette for group riding" :)
But yes, metallic blankets are a nuisance indoors. They're banned - you shouldn't need one in a control anyway. PLEASE start your own thread for such things (removing shoes in dorms is another obvious related issue).

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Somnolent on 31 May, 2013, 10:53:18 am

@mattc
do your actual scientists have anything to say on the subject of distance perception to a pair of lights, one steady and one blinking ?

I want to get the best of both worlds.... we have a more than adequate supply of bright but not DETH RAY lights (mostly Smart 1/2 watts of various shapes) , and having abandoned the idea of putting one on saddle bag loop (as discussed upthread)   my current thinking is to mount one low on the seat stay which will be on steady (and pointing horizontally), with another high on the seat stay (which I can hopefully reach the switch of without dismounting) that will be:
on blinky when riding alone
off when riding in a group
and on steady if the battery on the lower one should die mid stage and I CBA to change them until the next control.

Does this meet with the assembled YACF wisdom ?

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: marcusjb on 31 May, 2013, 11:00:42 am

Quote from: teethgrinder on 31 May, 2013, 08:55:19 am

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands

I have been pondering the purchase of some ankle bands as they really do stand out, some one on BCM was using them and I really noticed it then. Big fan of retroreflective stuff anyway. The PBP gilet is brilliant for lots of shiny silver bits at night and make more impact (in my mind) than any light can.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Bunker22 on 31 May, 2013, 11:14:02 am

Quote from: marcusjb on 31 May, 2013, 11:00:42 am

Quote from: teethgrinder on 31 May, 2013, 08:55:19 am

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands

I have been pondering the purchase of some ankle bands as they really do stand out, some one on BCM was using them and I really noticed it then. Big fan of retroreflective stuff anyway. The PBP gilet is brilliant for lots of shiny silver bits at night and make more impact (in my mind) than any light can.

May have been me after your kip an Menai?

They are light, dont have batteries to run out, and are in motion to catch drivers eyes. Whats not to like?

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Chuffy on 31 May, 2013, 11:16:59 am

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 11:30:56 pm

Quote from: jsabine on 30 May, 2013, 06:05:17 pm

Quote from: bunker on 30 May, 2013, 05:50:36 pm

+1.  If LEL organisers could request require that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

FTFY

I beg to differ.
Much of the LEL route is on rural roads with low motor traffic volumes (which is a good thing).
Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".
Sorry, but my safety takes precedence over your discomfort.... that's not to say I won't happily turn my lights to steady in the unlikely event of someone wheelsucking me me keeping up with a group.

Have to say, I agree with PpPete. I've never understood the problem with flashers, and I spend most of the winter sitting behind Baggy and her array of Smart 1/2ws . That said, I have a collection of rear lights and some have flash patterns that would induce epilepsy in a statue (Moon Shield, yes, you). I also have a Lezyne rear light which is basically a 60 lumen torch which only mounts in a seatpost and can't be adjusted for angle. Ludicrous piece of rubbish.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: teethgrinder on 31 May, 2013, 11:35:31 am

Quote from: marcusjb on 31 May, 2013, 11:00:42 am

I have been pondering the purchase of some ankle bands as they really do stand out, some one on BCM was using them and I really noticed it then. Big fan of retroreflective stuff anyway. The PBP gilet is brilliant for lots of shiny silver bits at night and make more impact (in my mind) than any light can.

I use them for keeping my trousers out of my chan when I ride to work and go shopping.
I have used them for Audax. The snap on ones cut into my ankles after a while and get uncomfortable and even painfull. The velcro ones don't breathe so I end up with sore skin and the velcro eventualy comes off. They're also extra faff.
I agree with fboab. Just a set of lights is enough.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Chris S on 31 May, 2013, 11:50:16 am

Quote from: teethgrinder on 31 May, 2013, 11:35:31 am

I agree with fboab. Just a set of lights is enough.

And maybe a gilet with Police Polite on it.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: wilkyboy on 31 May, 2013, 12:06:31 pm

Quote from: Chuffy on 31 May, 2013, 11:16:59 am

Have to say, I agree with PpPete. I've never understood the problem with flashers, and I spend most of the winter sitting behind Baggy and her array of Smart 1/2ws .

The Smart 1/2 Watt flashers are fine, beacuse all the LEDs are behind a fractal lens; it's the 1 Watt focused burn-the-retina-from-mine-eyes flashers that are the real criminals here.

That said, I use the softer flashers for daytime: low sun, dappled shade, rain, that sorta thing, to say "here's a cyclist", but the ambient light means that the contrast between the blinky and what it's bolted to (me and my bike) is relatively small, and so the blinky's purpose is effective.  At night it's all wrong, and the contrast between the light and what it's bolted to is so great that a steady light is more effective.  Both together: nah, it's better to have both on steady, IMO, although am I bovvered?  Only when the blinky's a death-ray and I'm sucking your wheel.

The new-ish Cateye Reflex is nice, because it has a soft fade-in-fade-out mode that never actually goes out, just gets brighter and dimmer, and it is a legal reflector too.  EDIT: I just checked this and I forgot it has a write-my-name-on-the-moon LED in the middle, but a small piece of white tape over that one small area and now it's much more group-friendly.  However, its rectangular shape isn't as aesthetically pleasing juxtaposed with the rounded rear of the saddle (during the day), which is why I am using a much older, elliptical Cateye.  Aesthetics on a bike — who'd'a thought?!  I may swap them over for LEL, because the Reflex switches on automatically when it's dark (and you're moving), and switches off again in the light, which is neat right up until you stick the bike in the boot of a car without switching the light off completely first  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: graydog68 on 31 May, 2013, 01:36:54 pm

Quote from: Mr Fitz on 31 May, 2013, 09:30:00 am

Quote from: teethgrinder on 31 May, 2013, 08:55:19 am

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands.

For us recumbent riders reflective ankle bands probably aren't as visible from behind.  Nevertheless, due to the many useful comments in this thought-provoking thread, I have just bought a load of reflective tape which I intend to drape liberally over me and my bike.

Quote from: PpPete on 30 May, 2013, 11:30:56 pm

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".

even harder to see them in our fully faired recumbents :D
My lights are on a high phase rate (altough i do have 3hz units to)
I've found using flashie bike light I get treated by cars like a bike in the dark when they clearly cant see what it is.....
This is quite worring when heading in to roundabouts and they over take you!!!! I have had in one case the car realise at the last moment how fast I was going, and they could not pull in, basically parking their car at the central bollard..... 

so on the bents in the dark I generally use high phase rate, in the lowlight dawn and evening. flash as high as I can place it.


safty first, but I will take on baord and fit a flash over ride swith for when your coming up to over take me  ???

there is some good M3 reflective tape on fleabay as I understand, in most colours to match.

on the unfaireds I use flat snaps reflective stripe and karamor running armband high up my arms. These have red fibres otp also. cost £2.99.
also on fitted on rear of lid.
foward and sidewards I have white snap strips.....



got to add this icon as my little boys want sto see it :demon: 

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: andyoxon on 03 June, 2013, 11:20:31 pm

Good thread.   Just been thinking about how to re arrange my Smart 1/2w and R1 rear lights*; probably going to be along the lines as PpPete suggested.  Praps with R1 top most, so it can be set/turned on or off, while riding with the lower 1/2w on steady.  The R1 also has two low intensity LEDs below the main burner - but not used these on their own before.   Guess there's not two much need for two on together ona group ride.

*  not doing LEL - just visiting thread...

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: LEE on 05 June, 2013, 10:23:33 am

Will cross post with the "bodge it" thread

This is how I affix my rear light.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/QzcuVlwv1W8-eTrY8b8bhUTUhaoVaSa_SFjFx43RCf8=w276-h207-p-no)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3_JZY7H8EHg/Ua8Cht2t3eI/AAAAAAAABJ4/UKyKZFbQHUQ/w958-h719-no/IMG_9076.JPG)

It uses a P-Clip (with the rubber insert), a standard Cateye bracket and a plastic block (I had loads left over from building some flat-pack furniture).  The blocks are pre-drilled, strong and light.  I wrapped it in black tape.

It's rock-solid but can be tweaked up/down or left/right easily. Without the plastic block the light hits the seat stay before I can get it horizontal, although this is a Cateye 600 issue that wouldn't affect other lights I imagine.

I could get it closer to the wheel by mounting the block the other side of the P-Clip but you start losing light in the mudguard stays and the wheel.  However, I may turn the P-Clip over to get the light more in line with the seat stay.

The close-up photos make the setup appear more obtrusive than it is in reality.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 05 June, 2013, 10:25:21 am

Quote from: Paul Metcalfe on 05 June, 2013, 10:23:33 am

It's rock-solid but can be tweaked up/down or left/right easily.

Good thing too - as it's quite clearly pointing upwards.    ;D

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: graydog68 on 05 June, 2013, 10:59:14 am

flip cool place for a spare water bottle Paul Metcalfe..... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Duh its another bike behind or a very short wheelbase

like the p-clip idea

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: MattH on 11 June, 2013, 10:38:55 pm

Quote from: Chuffy on 31 May, 2013, 11:16:59 am

Have to say, I agree with PpPete. I've never understood the problem with flashers, and I spend most of the winter sitting behind Baggy and her array of Smart 1/2ws .

Flashing lights don't generally bother me (unless pointing in my face) - but in full darkness, when I'm tired (i.e. not just on a commute or towards the end of a day ride), they start to induce sleepyness in me with their hypnotic flashing.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Greenbank on 11 June, 2013, 11:48:42 pm

I've wiled away hours playing the blinking game on Audaxes:-

Try and blink at the right frequency so that the flashing rear light ahead of you either looks on all the time, or off all the time.

Better than the number plate game.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Feline on 12 June, 2013, 01:49:14 am

On PBP at one night stage I had the joy of being some way behind some idiot with a BLUE flashing rear light of DETH. It was sufficiently annoying to be blinding from some half a mile behind. When we got to the next control Simon had to stop me seeking out the moron's bike and kicking the shit out of the light and her bike in general. Yes, it was a she. She subsequently asked if I wouldn't mind waiting for her as I left a control so she had someone to ride with and she wasn't yet ready to go. I rode off rapidly.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mkpaa on 12 June, 2013, 01:51:58 am

Quote from: Greenbank on 11 June, 2013, 11:48:42 pm

I've wiled away hours playing the blinking game on Audaxes:-

Try and blink at the right frequency so that the flashing rear light ahead of you either looks on all the time, or off all the time.

Better than the number plate game.

I want to see your doing that with Knog blinder or Niterider Solas. :-D

I think there are two major problems with blinkers:
1) In a group it looks horrible. Lights already "blink" because people move in front of them. If the light also actually blink it is very hard to concentrate. This of course it not a problem in small (<10 riders) groups.
2) It is harder know the distance to a blinking light than always on light.
+ Light should be placed so that rider right behind you doesn't see it. For example below your saddle bag.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 12 June, 2013, 07:19:35 am

Quote from: Feline on 12 June, 2013, 01:49:14 am

On PBP at one night stage I had the joy of being some way behind some idiot with a BLUE flashing rear light of DETH. It was sufficiently annoying to be blinding from some half a mile behind. When we got to the next control Simon had to stop me seeking out the moron's bike and kicking the shit out of the light and her bike in general. Yes, it was a she. She subsequently asked if I wouldn't mind waiting for her as I left a control so she had someone to ride with and she wasn't yet ready to go. I rode off rapidly.

 ;D

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mds101 on 13 June, 2013, 07:37:30 pm

Sometimes I like to see a flashing light in the distance, especially if I'm on my own at night, reminds me there's someone else about, I guess that's different on a ride with numbers like LEL though

On the M&W recently I spent ages following a pair of red lights, when I got close enough it was an aerial or something.... Happened a couple of times :facepalm:

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: MattH on 13 June, 2013, 09:09:21 pm

And the opposite of that is the BCM, where if you're late starting the climb up towards the YH at Pen-y-Pas you see flashing lights in the sky and assume they are aerials on top of the mountain, or low flying aircraft, before the horrible realisation hits that they are bicycle lights and you need to get up there...

(not that the climb is hard, but they seem an awfully long way up when you are at the bottom)

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: STMS on 14 June, 2013, 12:09:27 am

Quote from: MattH on 13 June, 2013, 09:09:21 pm

And the opposite of that is the BCM, where if you're late starting the climb up towards the YH at Pen-y-Pas you see flashing lights in the sky and assume they are aerials on top of the mountain, or low flying aircraft, before the horrible realisation hits that they are bicycle lights and you need to get up there...

(not that the climb is hard, but they seem an awfully long way up when you are at the bottom)

A fantastic event all on its own those lights in the sky, it has to be seen to be believed!

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: Kim on 14 June, 2013, 12:42:32 am

Similarly, the sea of shimmering red up thorugh Epping Forest on the Dunwich Dynamo.

On that one, the obnoxious rear lights come as a welcome alternative to the obnoxious flashing front lights that some of the more London-centric riders use to light their progress in a surreal stroboscopic manner.  Fortunately such riders tend to be easily dropped.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mds101 on 14 June, 2013, 02:51:23 pm

Quote from: STMS on 14 June, 2013, 12:09:27 am

Quote from: MattH on 13 June, 2013, 09:09:21 pm

And the opposite of that is the BCM, where if you're late starting the climb up towards the YH at Pen-y-Pas you see flashing lights in the sky and assume they are aerials on top of the mountain, or low flying aircraft, before the horrible realisation hits that they are bicycle lights and you need to get up there...

(not that the climb is hard, but they seem an awfully long way up when you are at the bottom)

A fantastic event all on its own those lights in the sky, it has to be seen to be believed!

Unless you're first up then I guess you have to look back at a trail of white?

Planning on doing BCM next year and look forward to the red lights in front of me.

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: tiermat on 14 June, 2013, 03:17:03 pm

Quote from: mds101 on 14 June, 2013, 02:51:23 pm

Quote from: STMS on 14 June, 2013, 12:09:27 am

Quote from: MattH on 13 June, 2013, 09:09:21 pm

And the opposite of that is the BCM, where if you're late starting the climb up towards the YH at Pen-y-Pas you see flashing lights in the sky and assume they are aerials on top of the mountain, or low flying aircraft, before the horrible realisation hits that they are bicycle lights and you need to get up there...

(not that the climb is hard, but they seem an awfully long way up when you are at the bottom)

A fantastic event all on its own those lights in the sky, it has to be seen to be believed!

Unless you're first up then I guess you have to look back at a trail of white?

Planning on doing BCM next year and look forward to the red lights in front of me.

You get a similar effect on the FNRtSR to Whitby.  Just after the Hole of Horcum the road DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS then climbs again.  It looks like a string of christmas lights away up the hill!

Title: Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
Post by: mattc on 14 June, 2013, 03:22:18 pm

Quote from: mds101 on 13 June, 2013, 07:37:30 pm

Sometimes I like to see a flashing light in the distance, especially if I'm on my own at night, reminds me there's someone else about, I guess that's different on a ride with numbers like LEL though

Yes, it's a lovely sight - it's warmed my heart on quite a few long rides - but IN THE DISTANCE.

Then as you start getting closer and closer, you start wishing they'd stop for a pee, so you could shout a cheery hello and get the hell past them! The longer it takes to catch them, the more you want to "do a Feline" on their ass rear light ...