[LEL17] LEL2021 Preferential entry.

[Graeme]

I'm not a member of the LEL team. Instead I am one of many UK based organisers: contributing to the hundreds of events running throughout the year, every year.

The LEL team offered early event places to existing AUK members and volunteers. We don't know what they'll offer in 2021, but maybe now is time to join Audax UK anyway.

"5 year membership!"

It would be lovely to see some of the demand for LEL boost other events in the interim.

[Somnolent]

I suspect that if the AUK membership continues to grow the LEL team may not be able to absolutely guarantee a place for members in 2021.
I do know that the current team have not wanted to use qualifying rides (like the SR needed for PBP) but with 1500 places going in a matter of minutes I wonder if in fact that is the way to boost other events.

[mmmmartin]

with 1500 places going in a matter of minutes I wonder if in fact that is the way to boost other events.

I'm glad it's not my decision on how to decide. I've always thought it rather daft to ask riders to do a 600k to show they're capable of at least a half-decent try at the full distance on LEL and PBP, but never saw the point of asking them to show they can do a 400k, a 300k and a 200k as well. Expanding the size of the event is a logistical nightmare as well. But ISTR Alwyn saying just about everyone who wanted to ride last time did so, so maybe the problem is not as bad as it appears.

[Fidgetbuzz]

The unsatisfied demand is roughly around 1000 I believe .. ( web master guru has tricks up his sleeve that suggest this ) .. it is our opinion that 1500 is the limit of UK capacity. We do not get the control location support that PBP gets.

2021 .. I am not expecting to be doing the money again .. but how the heck places get allocated if demand is greater still .. an absolutely horrid problem. Maybe straight genuine lottery .. all with an equal chance.  .. maybe bias it .. AUK have  a 1 in 2 chance  all the rest a 1 in 4 .. .. There is a fair amount of unpleasant feeling amongst the disappointed .. often aimed at Phil . which is totally unreasonable and ill informed . the web site had over a Million hits during the 3 offer for sale timings and all places went in minutes each time.

[mattc]

with 1500 places going in a matter of minutes I wonder if in fact that is the way to boost other events.

I'm glad it's not my decision on how to decide. I've always thought it rather daft to ask riders to do a 600k to show they're capable of at least a half-decent try at the full distance on LEL and PBP, but never saw the point of asking them to show they can do a 400k, a 300k and a 200k as well. Expanding the size of the event is a logistical nightmare as well. But ISTR Alwyn saying just about everyone who wanted to ride last time did so, so maybe the problem is not as bad as it appears.

"I'm glad it's not my decision on how to decide" Amen to that!

But if I was asked for my humble opinion, I'd be in favour of qualification. Doesnt need to be a full SR series.
If Alwyn wants some people with no experience - as he has stated - then perhaps give some places exclusively for those with something of relevance on their palmares.
And yes, I appreciate this creates extra issues and decisions (but there may be some payback in a much-reduced stampede for places).

[The French Tandem]

We do not get the control location support that PBP gets.

Why is it so, Fidgetbuzz? Most volunteers on PBP controls are members of local cycling clubs, or relatives of.  They have a strong incentive to run the control, since each time a rider eats/sleeps/take a shower, the club earns some money. Couldn't LEL imagine a similar scheme? There must be UK based clubs who would be happy to help!

[inappropriate_bike]

Wouldn't qualification just raise the problem if people qualifying and not getting a place?

[L CC]

We do not get the control location support that PBP gets.

Why is it so, Fidgetbuzz? Most volunteers on PBP controls are members of local cycling clubs, or relatives of.  They have a strong incentive to run the control, since each time a rider eats/sleeps/take a shower, the club earns some money. Couldn't LEL imagine a similar scheme? There must be UK based clubs who would be happy to help!

PBP's been running along the same route every four years for decades. LEL's been underground, and alwyn has expressed elsewhere a desire that it remain so.
The general feeling towards cyclists in the UK is not the same as in France. Communities are simply not as welcoming.
The cycling fraternity doesn't run clubs in the same way and some of the controls are in areas where there simply isn't a cycling club to help out- Heather told me she was struggling for locals to ask at Brampton- there isn't a club to get in touch with.

[mcshroom]

We do not get the control location support that PBP gets.

Why is it so, Fidgetbuzz? Most volunteers on PBP controls are members of local cycling clubs, or relatives of.  They have a strong incentive to run the control, since each time a rider eats/sleeps/take a shower, the club earns some money. Couldn't LEL imagine a similar scheme? There must be UK based clubs who would be happy to help!

PBP's been running along the same route every four years for decades. LEL's been underground, and alwyn has expressed elsewhere a desire that it remain so.
The general feeling towards cyclists in the UK is not the same as in France. Communities are simply not as welcoming.
The cycling fraternity doesn't run clubs in the same way and some of the controls are in areas where there simply isn't a cycling club to help out- Heather told me she was struggling for locals to ask at Brampton- there isn't a club to get in touch with.

I'd recommend contacting Border City Wheelers for Brampton. They're a pretty big club in Carlisle so I'd imagine will have members in Brampton.

[Fidgetbuzz]

We do not get the control location support that PBP gets.

Why is it so, Fidgetbuzz? Most volunteers on PBP controls are members of local cycling clubs, or relatives of.  They have a strong incentive to run the control, since each time a rider eats/sleeps/take a shower, the club earns some money. Couldn't LEL imagine a similar scheme? There must be UK based clubs who would be happy to help!

it is only for the last 2 events that LEL has become of any size. Fboab has said what i would have replied .. to build the local support to do as PBP does would take ..how long 8/12/16 years .. way outside our time scale . PBP controls benefit by how much they can charge the riders and in reality it is quite often for  so so food offerings . 

Never mind how the heck we would get that interest even started .. running the event as we do .. takes a huge effort from a small team .. but we know we can do it  .. lose control of the way a control is run .. and you get the PBP model which to quite a few is unsatisfactory .. charged substantially for modest offerings.

[alwyn]

I would resent having to use LEL as a means to boost other events. If other AUK events are struggling, those organisers should perhaps ask why that is the case at a time when you can't move for successful cycling events.

[Planet X Paul]

Wouldn't qualification just raise the problem if people qualifying and not getting a place?

This the situation in Ultra Running events.  Having come from this background I know full well what it is like to have the full quota of qualifying events and still not get in.  However, as these events are usually annual, it is not too long to wait for the next years event and keep your qualifying points and fitness up.  You usually get a positive bias towards the following year's even, but still no guarantee of entry.

LEL is a victim of its own success and that success is down to the organisers putting on a superb event.  I do not know which would be the best way forward for 2021.  There will be lots of discussions in the future about this topic.  But you are still going to have lots of disappointed people.

[Exit Stage Left]

PBP's volunteer base is ageing. I've been seeing the same key volunteers for the last three editions, and mention was made of this in the round-up brochure. Internationalisation is one factor.

[D.A.L.E.]

Despite not getting a place, I actually thought Mike Halls method for The Transcontinental to be spot on.

[alwyn]

FB tried to persuade me to run a ballot this tine, but I declined. I think I will look at this more closely next time. It's not without its pitfalls though. TC has individual riders, whereas a lot of people ride LEL in pairs and teams. That complicates matters but isn't an insurmountable problem.

ANYWAY - I have more pressing LEL matters to attend to.

[D.A.L.E.]

FB tried to persuade me to run a ballot this tine, but I declined. I think I will look at this more closely next time. It's not without its pitfalls though. TC has individual riders, whereas a lot of people ride LEL in pairs and teams. That complicates matters but isn't an insurmountable problem.

ANYWAY - I have more pressing LEL matters to attend to.

Nah, it has pairs too.

It's just a weighted ballot but seems a decent solution.

[Fidgetbuzz]

Just tossing this into the pot

I think we could do a preferential type ballot .. different odds for different categories  1 in 2 for Auk for places , 1 in 3 for Overseas riders for  places , varying the odds to make sure that only 1000 places go like this...and then  residual places everyone with an even chance .. maybe 50 places first for females.. plenty of scope for adjusting this.
just an idea .. not considered in any detail .. and far to far away to think about now.

[MikeFromLFE]

Just tossing this into the pot

I think we could do a preferential type ballot .. different odds for different categories  1 in 2 for Auk for places , 1 in 3 for Overseas riders for  places , varying the odds to make sure that only 1000 places go like this...and then  residual places everyone with an even chance .. maybe 50 places first for females.. plenty of scope for adjusting this.
just an idea .. not considered in any detail .. and far to far away to think about now.

I think you're starting to flesh out what's been buzzing round my head as I've watched the saga unfold. The organisers do a sterling job, and already the back-office has been truly awesome. But I do wonder how much extra work a preferential ballot might create, and whether the extra work might reduce some of the abuse and misunderstanding there has been during the entry process.

Second thought - could heavily promoting an (almost) x-rated event a week before/after the main event have any benefit?


Sent from my brain to my iPad using my fingers and Tapatalk

[Fidgetbuzz]

Certainly not....  AFTER  .. when the ride is over .. we breathe a huge sigh of relief .. and then realise how much more we still have to do ( possibly more then  for the money man ) .. but last time we all swore we would not do another one .. and yet here are Alwyn and myself back again. i have even already heard Alwyn mention 2021 .. but that would be an absolute NO NO from Mrs FB, (maybe  I could send her off on  a prolonged holiday to sunny somewhere)    .. it is bitterly cold here .. and the central heating boiler broke down yesterday !!!

[mattc]

I would resent having to use LEL as a means to boost other events. If other AUK events are struggling, those organisers should perhaps ask why that is the case at a time when you can't move for successful cycling events.

Any boost would just be a side effect to qualification requirements. (and bear in mind that AUK owes its existence to riders needing to qualify for PBP! )

We could look at the PBP pre-qualification model (used in 2011 & 2015). This seemed to work really well. It only involves 1 ride, so that should assuage your reluctance to bully people, and require much less admin than the whole SR thing.

Another option is to allow non-AUK rides - thus reducing the bullying factor further - and/or even big rides outside the standard BRM formula (LEL's discretion). Again, if this is done in the season before, the manic rush of admin will be mitigated.

[Veloman]

Another option is to allow non-AUK rides - thus reducing the bullying factor further - and/or even big rides outside the standard BRM formula (LEL's discretion). Again, if this is done in the season before, the manic rush of admin will be mitigated.

The great attraction of AUK or BRM validated rides in the 'validation' thingy which is probably a good thing, whereas other 'big rides' might have challenges on the verification side of life.

[IanDG]

We do not get the control location support that PBP gets.

Why is it so, Fidgetbuzz? Most volunteers on PBP controls are members of local cycling clubs, or relatives of.  They have a strong incentive to run the control, since each time a rider eats/sleeps/take a shower, the club earns some money. Couldn't LEL imagine a similar scheme? There must be UK based clubs who would be happy to help!

PBP's been running along the same route every four years for decades. LEL's been underground, and alwyn has expressed elsewhere a desire that it remain so.
The general feeling towards cyclists in the UK is not the same as in France. Communities are simply not as welcoming.
The cycling fraternity doesn't run clubs in the same way and some of the controls are in areas where there simply isn't a cycling club to help out- Heather told me she was struggling for locals to ask at Brampton- there isn't a club to get in touch with.

Can Heather get in touch with my mum - she doesn't feel she can help this year, but she lives in Brampton and could ask around?

[Somnolent]

I would resent having to use LEL as a means to boost other events. If other AUK events are struggling, those organisers should perhaps ask why that is the case at a time when you can't move for successful cycling events.

Any boost would just be a side effect to qualification requirements. (and bear in mind that AUK owes its existence to riders needing to qualify for PBP! )

We could look at the PBP pre-qualification model (used in 2011 & 2015). This seemed to work really well. It only involves 1 ride, so that should assuage your reluctance to bully people, and require much less admin than the whole SR thing.

If you kept it to BRMs you'd remove any equivocation and any 'last minute' panics about qualification.
The differential dates according to the length of the pre-qualification ride would split things nicely into batches.
Is this some kind of 'special' day on the interwebs? Me (almost) agreeing with mattc ?
Hopefully though, alwyn will ignore our blatherings and get on with doing it his way.

[Veloman]

Hopefully though, alwyn will ignore our blatherings and get on with doing it his way.

Which appears to be working well!

[IanDG]

It's good that if you're a volunteer one year that you get preferential entry 4 years later, but as a member? I've been a member of AUK since the 90s because I like the mag and want to support long distance cycling. The last event I rode was 2 year ago and I've only ridden a handful of events in the last 20 years (less than 6 - but organised as many events) - should I get preferential entry? Where do you draw the line?