Poll

condition of my hands after LEL

just fine, thank you
11 (17.7%)
numb / tingling fingers, but they're ok now
2 (3.2%)
numb / tingling fingers, even after a weeks rest
44 (71%)
fingers are fine, but got numbness elsewhere
5 (8.1%)

Total Members Voted: 62

Author Topic: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL  (Read 12524 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #50 on: 15 June, 2018, 10:30:24 pm »
Given that I know several folk who have reverted back to normal bikes after several years on recumbents, perhaps normal bikes work well/ are more fun for some folk?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #51 on: 16 June, 2018, 11:04:31 am »
It's one of the things that still does make my mind ache. Objectively you would think that your average cyclist would take the option that has shown to be more efficient in terms of being more aero, more efficient in terms of muscles used, more comfortable and overall more fun - but alas people will take the df option.

More aero: True
More efficient in terms of muscles used: True but not relevant
More comfortable: True the majority of the time
More fun: Subjective

I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
* commuting with two large panniers
* storage
* cost
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LMT

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #52 on: 16 June, 2018, 12:22:16 pm »
It's one of the things that still does make my mind ache. Objectively you would think that your average cyclist would take the option that has shown to be more efficient in terms of being more aero, more efficient in terms of muscles used, more comfortable and overall more fun - but alas people will take the df option.

More aero: True
More efficient in terms of muscles used: True but not relevant
More comfortable: True the majority of the time
More fun: Subjective

I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
* commuting with two large panniers
* storage
* cost
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway

You don't think it's relevant the muscles that you use when riding a bike?

Any the other stuff you speak of is anecdotal.

Phil W

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #53 on: 16 June, 2018, 12:37:22 pm »
I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
Folding FWD
* commuting with two large panniers
Many recumbents can take panniers or use Banana bags.
* storage
Folding FWD
* cost
New can be built up from frame set for about £1,500. Less than £1,000 second hand.
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc
High Racers use standard road bike wheels and components.
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway
True for most of us outside audaxes that span more than a day.


Comes down to preferences.  I like riding both but anything moderately hilly my recumbent drops my average speeds, on audaxes that means I have less time to stop.  On the Highlands 1000 I was on a borrowed road bike (my road bike frame cracked in April). I am not suffering any hand , neck, or saddle related issues.  Samuel's point about lowering the saddle and putting it further back is just what I did after Shermer's in 2016.  I also now wear a cap with a shorter peak, that flips up, to avoid craning the neck so much (I keep my longer peak caps for the recumbent). It has the advantage of also reducing the stress on neck, which I pay more attention to these days. My replacement frame build has bars with shallow drop, slight flare and longer section of the drop so the reach to the drops is a lot less and I can maintain the same head position whether on hoods or hearest point of drops.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #54 on: 16 June, 2018, 12:48:43 pm »
It's a lot easier to train your arse to handle longer and longer days in the saddle than it is to deal with the problems you get from too much weight on the hands.

I would argue that you only have one way to sit on the saddle, but you can buy a different handlebar which has a wider range of positions available...

There are just as many variations with saddles/seatposts/shorts/etc as there are with different handlebars/stems/tape/padding/mitts/etc.

Do you often change your saddle mid way through a ride? My point is that you only have one way to sit on a saddle, give or take a few mm forward or backwards... if you have tri bars, you can rest your weight on your forearms from time to time

Even with basic drop-bars I can use my hands to hold them in many different ways.

I put this down to my hands being more versatile, dextrous and better trained. Whereas Greenbank is a smartarse.


[This feeble joke owes almost everything to the almost-as-feeble joke about the paralympic swimmer known as Clever Dick.]



Actually, there's a serious point in there: Even with basic drop-bars I can use my hands to hold them in many different ways.
I do feel that moving around your drops over a long ride pays off handsomely.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #55 on: 16 June, 2018, 01:10:06 pm »
I understand the argument for recumbents but don't forget the various cons that go along side the pros. They wouldn't suit me at all because:-
* trains (and stations with stairs)
* commuting with two large panniers
* storage

Depends on the bike.  My tourer is about as awkward for trains as a flat-barred DF tourer, because it's designed to fit a similar envelope.  It's also eminently suited to carrying panniers, and (new set of cables every year aside) admirably low maintenance.  Storage is awkward because the handlebars are in the middle, like the stoker bars of a tandem.

My racing bike is a pain in the arse on trains because it's so long.  It's not something you'd want to commute on, unless perhaps the commute involved miles of fenland.  It's brilliant for storage, though, because it's narrow and low.

The trike is a pain for most things (it's a two-person job to even get it out the door), but it's great for touring, not falling off on ice, safely hauling very heavy loads and - crucially - it means barkata can cycle rather than not be able to cycle.


Quote
* cost
* non-standard nature of parts/tyres/etc

Since there's a lively market for quality second-hand recumbents from people who bought the wrong kind of bike, long-term cost (compared to an upright) is mostly about chasing down sources of those obscure parts.  Things like idlers and suspension parts can be a right pain to get hold of.

Tyres are usually fairly standard sizes on modern bents (559, 406, some 622), so obtaining tyres isn't a problem unless you've got something vintage, there's just a limited choice of faster ones, particularly in 559.


Quote
* I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway

And this is where n+1 applies.  I do a lot of riding on recumbents, but when I'm popping to the shops it's on a boring hybrid with nice low gears, when I'm spending the day on and off trains it's a Brompton, and I have a Reasonably Priced Mountain Bicycle for sensible off-roading.

Best bike for the job.  And when the job means not inflaming my carpal tunnel and/or genitals with prolonged riding, that's some kind of recumbent.  Because that really does solve those particular problems far better than anything else I've tried, and it seems a shame to see people suffer or risk permanent injury when they haven't really considered all the alternatives.  I'm not suggesting that recumbents are always the best option - far from it (they're not always faster, some can be really hard work in traffic, riders who don't like spinning low gears can have problems, your normal level of street harassment will be turned up a notch, and all but the sturdier tourers are a liability on crap surfaces).


Anyway, now it's been thoroughly mentioned I suggest that further discussion of laid-back solutions to hand numbness be moved to The Dark Side, and we leave this thread for discussion of upright-oriented tweaks.

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #56 on: 16 June, 2018, 01:26:00 pm »
You don't think it's relevant the muscles that you use when riding a bike?

I don't think the minor efficiency gain is relevant. DF bikes aren't exactly inefficient.

Any the other stuff you speak of is anecdotal.

Sure, but it probably covers the reasons why 99% of people who are happy with uprights and don't bother with recumbents.

You said...

It's one of the things that still does make my mind ache. Objectively you would think that your average cyclist would take the option that has shown to be more efficient in terms of being more aero, more efficient in terms of muscles used, more comfortable and overall more fun - but alas people will take the df option.

and I'm just proposing a reason why most don't take that option.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #57 on: 16 June, 2018, 01:41:44 pm »
Recumbents are still a foreign country to me. One I'd like to visit but it's not top of my priorities.

Mostly, I'm happy with my bike set-up. I don't often have problems with pressure-related numbness - certainly not on rides up to 300km. But much longer distances bring other problems, principally fatigue, which I'm sure can lead to putting more weight on the arms. I'm certainly not just putting up with it, though - I'm keen to find ways of preventing and/or curing the problem, and that's why I'm posting in this thread.

I have heard lots of good things about SMP and ISM saddles and may investigate further. However, I'm mostly happy with my good old B17 and I'm convinced that my problems in that area from the West Highlands ride were due to the shorts rather than the saddle - I found myself regularly having to straighten out the pad which had bunched up in the middle.

I might also try moving the saddle back/down to shift weight further backwards, but I don't think there's anything too badly wrong with my current saddle position, which feels well balanced. More important for me personally, I suspect, is losing some weight and working on developing my core strength, which is currently very poor (certainly compared to how it was a few years ago).
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

whosatthewheel

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #58 on: 16 June, 2018, 02:54:54 pm »
As we are on the topic...

I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.

What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.

Can anyone comment?

LMT

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #59 on: 16 June, 2018, 03:48:37 pm »
As we are on the topic...

I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.

What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.

Can anyone comment?

Where on the route?

whosatthewheel

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #60 on: 16 June, 2018, 03:56:19 pm »
As we are on the topic...

I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.

What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.

Can anyone comment?

Where on the route?

After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #61 on: 16 June, 2018, 04:39:01 pm »
Interesting observation... So what are recumbents like to ride no-handed?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

LMT

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #62 on: 16 June, 2018, 05:03:33 pm »
As we are on the topic...

I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.

What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.

Can anyone comment?

Where on the route?

After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.

Yep that was me, the reason I asked is that there was only one point on that ride that I had anyone behind me who I could see in my mirrors for any length of time, but having said that your recollection does not tally with mine..'a few miles' is less than one mile, '...clearly a lot of effort...' was a HR and power in recovery and '...all over the road...' was me riding around some pot holes which are fairly plain to see on street view. ;)

I take it then it was one of the people in your group who felt the need to take a piss at the info control in view of the traffic going around that corner? I hope they know how lucky they were, 30 seconds later was an Old Bill car driving down the road towards the info....


LMT

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #63 on: 16 June, 2018, 05:14:46 pm »
Interesting observation... So what are recumbents like to ride no-handed?

Easy, steer with your feet.

whosatthewheel

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #64 on: 16 June, 2018, 06:01:58 pm »
As we are on the topic...

I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.

What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.

Can anyone comment?

Where on the route?

After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.

Yep that was me, the reason I asked is that there was only one point on that ride that I had anyone behind me who I could see in my mirrors for any length of time, but having said that your recollection does not tally with mine..'a few miles' is less than one mile, '...clearly a lot of effort...' was a HR and power in recovery and '...all over the road...' was me riding around some pot holes which are fairly plain to see on street view. ;)

I take it then it was one of the people in your group who felt the need to take a piss at the info control in view of the traffic going around that corner? I hope they know how lucky they were, 30 seconds later was an Old Bill car driving down the road towards the info....

Didn't know him personally, but yes, I do recall a guy having a wee at the info control.

I had the impression your arms were very tense trying to keep a good line with the bike and I recall thinking that it must be a pain to "drive" a recumbent... didn't seem very stable

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #65 on: 16 June, 2018, 06:08:44 pm »
As we are on the topic...

I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.

What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.

Can anyone comment?

It's all about the bike, apart from a small part that's about rider confidence.  Also, don't fall into the trap of assuming that 'recumbent' is a functional class of bicycle (like 'road bike' 'mountain bike' 'city bike' or whatever) - there's more variation between different types of recumbent than there is between different types of diamond-framed bicycle.

You've probably seen upright bike riders wobbling around and fighting with the bars, and you've probably seen upright bike riders gliding along effortlessly, it's the same with recumbents.  It's because different bikes that are optimised for different purposes have different steering geometry, which affects the handling.  A bike designed for confident high-speed cornering will tend to be twitchy at low speed.  A bike designed for hauling a camping load will be admirably stable, but a bit reluctant at cornering.  Get some random combination of factors interacting in a certain way, and you can get steering shimmy at certain speed.  And a rider who's unfamiliar with the bike (or falling asleep or extremely distracted) is liable to wobble, regardless of what they're riding.

I have a recumbent bike that I can (literally, for a few seconds - DAHIKT) ride in my sleep and balance at speeds my bike computer can't properly register, and another one that at low speed requires you to either concentrate intently on balance, or embrace a zen-like state where the bike and your muscle memory get on with it - but if you suddenly start to think about how you're balancing the bike, it's liable to wobble alarmingly.  (On the other hand, the latter is much better behaved at high speed.)  One's a touring bike, and the other's a racing bike.

The main difference with recumbents generally is that many have the centre of mass much lower to the ground than uprights.  That means it's a shorter inverted pendulum to balance, so tends to involve higher frequency steering corrections (contrast with tallbikes and ordinaries, where the frequency is lower).  Also, tiller steering in particular tends to visually amplify small steering corrections.  Small changes that you'd barely notice on drop handlebars or under-seat steering look much bigger, simply because the business end of the handlebars moves further in order to make them.  Looks clunky, but it keeps the rider's arms in, which reduces drag, and makes for a neater package.

There's a technique thing, as well, in that (exotic geometries where you can steer with your feet aside) all steering input is via the handlebars.  Unless the seat's very upright, you can't move your body-weight around to make small corrections like you can on a DF bike.  It's only a problem if you try to ride slowly at too low a cadence, but it severely reduces the ability to ride no-handed.  I can just about do it on the Streetmachine, but the bike will pick a random direction to go in as there's no way to correct it.

Further note on wobbling:  Sometimes I'll do something that causes a wobble deliberately.  My mirrors are mounted on the handlebars, and a brief wobble allows me to pan them around, eg. to check for cyclists in my blind spot.  Sometimes little things like reaching over to shoo flies from certain parts of your body is liable to cause wobble, too - I find it surprisingly difficult to reach my opposite elbow while keeping under-seat steering on track, for example.  And since a recumbent rider can't take their body off the seat to absorb a bump with their legs, those who aren't equipped with wide tyres and rear suspension (which is fairly common on touring recumbents, for exactly this reason) are liable to be quite pothole-averse to prevent excessive rattling of their BRANEZ.  With a really laid-back racing geometry your view of the road immediately in front of your bike is compromised, which exacerbates this issue - if in doubt, you dodge it.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #66 on: 16 June, 2018, 06:12:54 pm »
I still have a bit of numbness in my fingers, but I'm able to play piano and keyboards as well as ever so suspect that its the upper back stiffness that is causing the problem.  My Audax bike has a whole series of spacers so it is far from a racing angle, so I doubt, in my case, that was the cause of the problem.  On the West Highland 1000, taking a piss at an info control would have invited deadly midge attack more than a threat from the old bill.
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 574 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

LMT

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #67 on: 16 June, 2018, 08:21:55 pm »
As we are on the topic...

I had a recumbent in front of me for a few miles at LWL.

What I noticed is that the rider did seem to put a lot of effort to keep the damn thing going straight, with not much success as he was weaving all over the road. Looking at his arms, they were anything but relaxed, there was clearly a lot of effort going on.
I am assuming he was an experienced rider, or he wouldn't embark in a 400 km audax on a recumbent... there was no wind.

Can anyone comment?

Where on the route?

After the info and before Yat Rock... then you (?) turned left to avoid the climb and haven't seen you (?) since.

Yep that was me, the reason I asked is that there was only one point on that ride that I had anyone behind me who I could see in my mirrors for any length of time, but having said that your recollection does not tally with mine..'a few miles' is less than one mile, '...clearly a lot of effort...' was a HR and power in recovery and '...all over the road...' was me riding around some pot holes which are fairly plain to see on street view. ;)

I take it then it was one of the people in your group who felt the need to take a piss at the info control in view of the traffic going around that corner? I hope they know how lucky they were, 30 seconds later was an Old Bill car driving down the road towards the info....

Didn't know him personally, but yes, I do recall a guy having a wee at the info control.

I had the impression your arms were very tense trying to keep a good line with the bike and I recall thinking that it must be a pain to "drive" a recumbent... didn't seem very stable

DNFTT

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #68 on: 17 June, 2018, 06:06:57 pm »
I still have a bit of numbness in my fingers, but I'm able to play piano and keyboards as well as ever so suspect that its the upper back stiffness that is causing the problem.  My Audax bike has a whole series of spacers so it is far from a racing angle, so I doubt, in my case, that was the cause of the problem.  On the West Highland 1000, taking a piss at an info control would have invited deadly midge attack more than a threat from the old bill.

All my finger numbness has gone, but I must be doing something wrong, because I still can't play the piano......
IGMC

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #69 on: 18 June, 2018, 04:42:16 pm »
Nerve compression injuries of this sort usually recover at around 1mm per day.

Does the 1mm refer to the damaged nerve or to the affected limb / digit / etc?
Eddington Number = 132

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #70 on: 18 June, 2018, 04:51:13 pm »
Damaged nerve. Cyclists' ulnar nerve damage is usually at the wrist, about 150mm from fingertips and 70-80mm from intrinsic hand muscles.

This is compression damage in continuity.

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #71 on: 18 June, 2018, 05:13:15 pm »
I had what is probably cyclists palsy return yesterday on the wander Wye when I was about 400Km in. It also happened at the tail end of Bryan Chapman a couple of years ago and more seriously on LEL last year (which ended the ride for me). Theres an article here about it which includes some exercises and ideas to avoid it.

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Cyclist%27s_palsy

Ive had it despite a bike fit but other measures that Ive adopted have been extra thick gloves (Grip Grab) which do help a little and stretching. Yesterday I found that taking regular breaks helped. A 5-10 minute break kept it at bay for 30 mins to an hour.

Terrain and road surface is also relevant Im sure. Im convinced it came on badly at LEL after the bad road surfaces between Moffat and Edinburgh.

Other things I need to look into I think  are strengthening core (yes I know this is a given) and perhaps working on arm and hand strength (my arms are pretty puny)


Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #72 on: 18 June, 2018, 06:16:12 pm »
I didn't ride LEL in '17, but I've never quite regained full hand strength having damaged the nerves in 2011 (PBP) and 2013 (LEL). This is not that great since I am a surgeon. I can remember not being able to snap the top off single use glass opiate vials for quite a while initially.

Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #73 on: 18 June, 2018, 10:09:14 pm »
 
Quote
I rarely every suffer any DF-related discomfort on the vast majority of my riding anyway

Your point then is?  ::-)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: [LEL17] numb fingers (cyclist's palsy) after LEL
« Reply #74 on: 19 June, 2018, 12:02:12 am »
I didn't ride LEL in '17, but I've never quite regained full hand strength having damaged the nerves in 2011 (PBP) and 2013 (LEL). This is not that great since I am a surgeon. I can remember not being able to snap the top off single use glass opiate vials for quite a while initially.

I am also not sure if my left hand fully recovered from my cycling.

I never did either LEL or PBP but had problems initially when cycle camping solo towards the Arctic Circle and later after my longest Audax rides. My MS affected ulnar nerve distribution fairly early so it's hard now to know what has caused what.