Author Topic: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?  (Read 60425 times)

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #500 on: June 05, 2018, 10:57:05 pm »
Just as I thought I was starting to understand ECE's I've got confused…

I'm looking doing a 400 ECE onto a 600 calendar BRM. The 400km ECE link gives you 28hrs + 40hrs for the 600 = 68hrs.

A 1000km calender BRM or a 1000km DIY is 75hrs.

Am i looking at this incorrectly, or is there really a 10% time difference ?

a 600 calendar BRM is allowed 40 hrs; adding another 400 takes the total ECE to 1000 which qualifies for the lower minimum of 13.3kph;

thus the total 1000km is allowed 75.9 hrs;


the generic 400km ECE does not take into account the reduced minimum speed as a result of extending over 700km


Thanks Martin

grahamparks

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #501 on: June 05, 2018, 11:05:59 pm »
I think he means adding 400 km onto an existing 600 km BRM calendar event. For that you treat the total event as a 1000 km DIY, so you get 1000/13.3 = ~75 hours from start to finish. You still have to stick to the original timings of the calendar event, of course.

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #502 on: June 05, 2018, 11:57:28 pm »
I think he means adding 400 km onto an existing 600 km BRM calendar event. For that you treat the total event as a 1000 km DIY, so you get 1000/13.3 = ~75 hours from start to finish. You still have to stick to the original timings of the calendar event, of course.

Indeed, and it can be very useful.

Consider doing a 200km ECE to the start of a calendar 600 (which, for the sake of argument, is BRM so 40h) and then 200km ECE home afterwards.

If the calendar event starts at 6am on a Saturday then you could work backwards as follows:-

200km ECE to the start at 13.3kph (because you're doing a 1000km ride). So that gives you 15h to do that 200km to the start.

Saturday 6am - 15h = Friday 3pm, so:-

A Friday 3pm start and 75h (3d 3h) time limit for a 1000km ride you have to finish the whole thing by Monday 6pm.

Friday 3pm start a 200km ride to the start of the calendar event. Knock that off in 12h or so and get a 2h nap. Faster = more sleep.
Saturday 6am start the 600km calendar ride, adhering to the calendar ride time control time limits/etc.
Sunday 6pm (for example), finish the 600km calendar ride.
That then gives you 24h to sleep and then knock off the 200km ECE leg at the end.

If you want you can front load the ride a bit more by starting later than Friday 3pm which pushes the end time later too, but you can't start any earlier than 3pm (if the calendar ride starts at 6am on a Saturday and the whole ride is a nominal 1000km with 200km ECE legs either side) as you'd be out of time at the start of the calendar ride.

But finishing a 600km in 36h (having already done a 200 to the start) and then having 24h to sleep and then knock off a final 200km is quite a nice way of doing it. Even if you push the 600 to the 40h time limit you've still got 20h to sleep and then do the final 200.

One day I'll do the 200km from SW15 to the start of the BCM, ride the BCM and then ride home again to make it into a 1000. One day.
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grahamparks

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #503 on: June 06, 2018, 12:32:55 am »
you can't start any earlier than 3pm (if the calendar ride starts at 6am on a Saturday and the whole ride is a nominal 1000km with 200km ECE legs either side) as you'd be out of time at the start of the calendar ride.

I think Martin has stated that he doesn't enforce time limits within the ride, so you can start as early as you like as long as you can finish it all in 75 hours. You do still have to hang around at the calendar start until 6 am though.

(or on this year's BCM, most of the horses bolted at 5:58)

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #504 on: June 06, 2018, 08:53:34 am »
To recap... I've read the first couple of pages from 2009, but I believe some things must have now changed

Let's say I pick a 105 km BP and I ECE to a BR 200 by adding 95 km to go there and back.

1) Can I just do everything with a GPX file much in the same way as a DIY, without the need for a brevet card, proof of passage and whatnot for the ECE part?

2) Does the ECE part need to be a metric lump (e.g. 100 km, 200 km etc) or can it just be the missing distance to the minimum required, as in the example above 95 km? So for instance if I enter a 160 km BP, can i just bring it up to a 200 km BR by doing 40 km?

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #505 on: June 06, 2018, 09:23:45 am »
To recap... I've read the first couple of pages from 2009, but I believe some things must have now changed

Let's say I pick a 105 km BP and I ECE to a BR 200 by adding 95 km to go there and back.

1) Can I just do everything with a GPX file much in the same way as a DIY, without the need for a brevet card, proof of passage and whatnot for the ECE part?

2) Does the ECE part need to be a metric lump (e.g. 100 km, 200 km etc) or can it just be the missing distance to the minimum required, as in the example above 95 km? So for instance if I enter a 160 km BP, can i just bring it up to a 200 km BR by doing 40 km?

Martin's the man who knows - he's pragmatic and flexible, but also busy ...

1) Yes, enter nominating appropriate controls (you do still need to designate controls at reasonable intervals, though start point and end point will normally do if you've got a fairly direct ECE route up to 80 or 100km or so), then submit your GPX. No need for cards, receipts and the like.

2) In principle (and because of advisory routing), you're adding the ECE to the nominal distance rather than the actual distance of the calendar event, so your first example would have to be (100km Nom)+(100km ECE) to make it up to a 200, not (105km Actual)+(95km ECE). But a relatively recent concession is that if you are using a GPS, and will treat the calendar event as having mandatory routing, then you can just make up the actual event distance to an appropriate 100km threshold: 105+95 is fine as long as you've followed the calendar event route fully and submit a GPX.

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #506 on: June 06, 2018, 09:33:35 am »
thank you

BeMoreMike

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #507 on: July 11, 2018, 12:06:23 am »
Thanks everyone for all the replies above, I've been away from here for a while and forgot to acknowledge the as always excellent information.

75hrs is definitely better than 68hrs...but a 1000km is still 1000km !!

It still needs alot of consideration  :-\

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #508 on: July 12, 2018, 10:08:05 am »
I think he means adding 400 km onto an existing 600 km BRM calendar event. For that you treat the total event as a 1000 km DIY, so you get 1000/13.3 = ~75 hours from start to finish. You still have to stick to the original timings of the calendar event, of course.

Indeed, and it can be very useful.

Consider doing a 200km ECE to the start of a calendar 600 (which, for the sake of argument, is BRM so 40h) and then 200km ECE home afterwards.

If the calendar event starts at 6am on a Saturday then you could work backwards as follows:-

200km ECE to the start at 13.3kph (because you're doing a 1000km ride). So that gives you 15h to do that 200km to the start.

Saturday 6am - 15h = Friday 3pm, so:-

A Friday 3pm start and 75h (3d 3h) time limit for a 1000km ride you have to finish the whole thing by Monday 6pm.

Friday 3pm start a 200km ride to the start of the calendar event. Knock that off in 12h or so and get a 2h nap. Faster = more sleep.
Saturday 6am start the 600km calendar ride, adhering to the calendar ride time control time limits/etc.
Sunday 6pm (for example), finish the 600km calendar ride.
That then gives you 24h to sleep and then knock off the 200km ECE leg at the end.

If you want you can front load the ride a bit more by starting later than Friday 3pm which pushes the end time later too, but you can't start any earlier than 3pm (if the calendar ride starts at 6am on a Saturday and the whole ride is a nominal 1000km with 200km ECE legs either side) as you'd be out of time at the start of the calendar ride.

But finishing a 600km in 36h (having already done a 200 to the start) and then having 24h to sleep and then knock off a final 200km is quite a nice way of doing it. Even if you push the 600 to the 40h time limit you've still got 20h to sleep and then do the final 200.

One day I'll do the 200km from SW15 to the start of the BCM, ride the BCM and then ride home again to make it into a 1000. One day.
You most certainly could start earlier than 3pm as you only have to reach controls by the time limit not leave them. So your start time is limited by reaching the first control of the 600. Assume it is at 75km and you woukd have 5hour 36mins to get there and could reasonably expect to get there in 3 hours group riding and refreshed after a sleep so that pushes earliest departure time to 12:30 on the previous day. If you could ride a 200 in 10 hours this would give 7 hours to eat and sleep before starting the 600 and a finish time of 15:30 on the Monday. Setting off at dawn should make this feasible 11 hours seems enough and would leave another reasonable sleep If the 600 were finished by 18:00 (4 hours in hand)

This has been an interesting exercise and has me looking at the are ewe abbey ride in a new light.
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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #509 on: July 12, 2018, 11:05:05 am »
Not disagreeing with any of your conclusions but ...

You most certainly could start earlier than 3pm as you only have to reach controls by the time limit not leave them.

As I see it the purpose of a control closing time is to put a hard limit on the time that any control staff have to stay on duty.  Thus riders arriving at an intermediate control within minutes of the close must expect a minimum of TLC and the possibility of being thrown back out into the rain and the doors locked behind them.  (I exaggerate but you see the point.) 
Of course if there are no control staff, then any closing time is pointless and IMHO AUK should have a policy of ignoring any time transgressions on unmanned intermediate controls.  I tried to get this into the Regs a few years ago but without success.

In the case of a ECE 'arrival at the start' control that's a rather fine point - is it a staffed control or not? - I would say not, because the ECE is supposed to have zero impact on the event or its controllers.  The event, once it is ridden and validated, itself becomes the PoP required by the ECE arrival.  Likewise if you ECE back from the finish, the event itself is the PoP for the start of your ECE back.
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grahamparks

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #510 on: July 12, 2018, 11:22:12 am »
As I see it the purpose of a control closing time is to put a hard limit on the time that any control staff have to stay on duty.  Thus riders arriving at an intermediate control within minutes of the close must expect a minimum of TLC and the possibility of being thrown back out into the rain and the doors locked behind them.  (I exaggerate but you see the point.) 

I'd argue that the closing times only apply to the card stamper and the TLC arrangements are a separate enterprise with opening times at the whim of the organiser.

(which as a full value rider can often go against me - it's not unusual to turn up at controls well in time to find the TLC long since packed away)

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #511 on: July 12, 2018, 02:36:42 pm »
So is my understanding correct. ECE plus calendar event gives total time available for ride.  Calendar event has to be ridden within its prescribed time limit. So if you are quick of wheel you can ride 100km ECE, arrive 2 hours before start of calendar event for pre ride curry then ride event and providing you arrive on time or even better 2 hours before calendar event closing time all is well with your AUK world?

grahamparks

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #512 on: July 12, 2018, 03:02:09 pm »
Quote
So is my understanding correct. ECE plus calendar event gives total time available for ride. 

(Distance of ECE plus distance of calendar event) divided by ECE minimum speed gives total time available for ride.

So if you were attempting a 13h30 200 km, you'd have (200+100)/14.3 = 21 hours (or more for over distance). If you expected to finish the calendar ride in 11h30, you could potentially leave 11h30 - 21 h = 9h30 before the start time of the event, assuming everything went to plan.

(that's my understanding anyway. I'm not sure Martin has ruled on quite how far this can be pushed)

mattc

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #513 on: July 12, 2018, 03:24:41 pm »
So is my understanding correct. ECE plus calendar event gives total time available for ride.  Calendar event has to be ridden within its prescribed time limit. So if you are quick of wheel you can ride 100km ECE, arrive 2 hours before start of calendar event for pre ride curry then ride event and providing you arrive on time or even better 2 hours before calendar event closing time all is well with your AUK world?
Indeedy. Bonus cool points for not telling anyone at the curry that you are already riding an event  ;D

[See graham's answer for more detail. That stuff only becomes significant when the ECE moves you into a different min speed bracket i.e. the 699km watershed being the most likely.]
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frankly frankie

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #514 on: July 12, 2018, 04:07:59 pm »
So if you were attempting a 13h30 200 km, you'd have (200+100)/14.3 = 21 hours (or more for over distance). If you expected to finish the calendar ride in 11h30, you could potentially leave 11h30 - 21 h = 9h30 before the start time of the event, assuming everything went to plan.

(that's my understanding anyway. I'm not sure Martin has ruled on quite how far this can be pushed)

I don't see how that could work.  That would require Martin (as ECE org/validator) to have a knowledge of the event finishing times.  Which he doesn't need to know.  All he needs to know is the event has been completed successfully.
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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #515 on: July 13, 2018, 09:20:30 pm »
Wot Francis said

Hrvatska!

(where I am until next week)

quixoticgeek

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #516 on: July 13, 2018, 11:10:14 pm »


Hi, just wondering if it's possible to ECE a calendar ride that is not in the UK. The AUK DIY setup seems entirely ok with doing DIY rides outside the UK, but I'm wondering if the ECE setup would work with tacking a 100km ECE onto the end of a 200km Dutch BRM ?

J
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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #517 on: July 14, 2018, 10:28:18 pm »
I'm pretty sure yes. Overseas BRM appear on the AUK results as if they were ridden in the UK. So the ECE will be added as normal.

Not sure if you have to claim the calendar event though

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #518 on: July 15, 2018, 09:34:03 pm »
Dear riders
I suggest you look for a new ECE organiser
from October as I don't appear to be
doing my job within certain riders' expected timeframes

I would remind each rider that you are one of
hundreds all of whom require validation. I will get round to you all
in good time.

Thanks
Martin

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #519 on: July 15, 2018, 10:05:10 pm »
Dear riders
I suggest you look for a new ECE organiser
from October as I don't appear to be
doing my job within certain riders' expected timeframes

I would remind each rider that you are one of
hundreds all of whom require validation. I will get round to you all
in good time.

Thanks
Martin

I first used the ECE system in 2010, and while only doing one or two ECEs a year I've always found the system easy to use and never had an issue with the validation timeframe. I'm sure that's the same for pretty much all riders, but they'll always be a few moaners.
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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #520 on: July 15, 2018, 10:07:26 pm »
I’m with you, Martin. 👍

It’s obvious really, that with extended calendar events, you will occasionally get extended validation 😜

Keep up the good work 🏅🏅

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #521 on: July 16, 2018, 12:37:13 am »
I will get round to you all in good time.

I don't think I'm speaking out of turn in suggesting that the AUK board would support Martin in reminding riders that *volunteers* have other demands on their time, which sometimes they prioritise over getting a brevet card stamped ...

(Unless of course Martin's posting from the Bahamas, where he's been for the past three months on his ill-gotten gains.)
((At three quid a time.))

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #522 on: July 16, 2018, 08:45:20 am »
I will get round to you all in good time.

I don't think I'm speaking out of turn in suggesting that the AUK board would support Martin in reminding riders that *volunteers* have other demands on their time, which sometimes they prioritise over getting a brevet card stamped ...

(Unless of course Martin's posting from the Bahamas, where he's been for the past three months on his ill-gotten gains.)
((At three quid a time.))

Hear hear ! Martin's doing a grand job !!

Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #523 on: July 16, 2018, 08:47:22 am »
Croatia actually  8) but only 3 days

Thanks for the replies I will get a dedicated email for validation so I don't
have to wade through tons of junk mail every week to find them  :thumbsup:

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Re: Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?
« Reply #524 on: August 13, 2018, 10:20:29 am »
Looking at this weekend, Tour of the Hills has 2300m of climbing. If I ECE it up to a 200km, and the ECE part has an additional 1100m of climbing, would the 2.25AAA be upgraded to 3.5 if I mandatory route the ECE part?
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