Lighting etiquette for group riding

[mattc]

Never noticed such a thing. Does this happen often to you Kim? I can't see that it's much of a problem ... 

(This does all reinforce my earlier comment that 2-abreast-is-best )

[Kim]

It's happened to me a few times on FNRttCs, Dun Run and the like, and fboab's comment made me think of it.  I assume by the time people are riding in the dark on audaxes they've acquired enough knowledge to realise what's going on.

Two (or more) abreast is undoubtedly the best approach to effective use of lighting in a group.

[jsabine]

Rabbit transfixed by headlights, basically ...

[Veloman]

Flashing lights - front OR back - just don't bother. They annoy almost everyone, for negligible benefit.
(My opinion - and that of dozens of riders I have talked to - and of the PBP organisers, who banned the things years ago! )

My bold/underline

And I think the PBP organisers have got it 100% correct.  It was a joy at night having to content with the flashing and I think they should be banned in all Audax events.

[Bunker22]

Flashing lights - front OR back - just don't bother. They annoy almost everyone, for negligible benefit.
(My opinion - and that of dozens of riders I have talked to - and of the PBP organisers, who banned the things years ago! )

My bold/underline

And I think the PBP organisers have got it 100% correct.  It was a joy at night having to content with the flashing and I think they should be banned in all Audax events.

+1.  If LEL organisers could request that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

[jsabine]

+1.  If LEL organisers could request require that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

FTFY

[Somnolent]

+1.  If LEL organisers could request require that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

FTFY

I beg to differ.
Much of the LEL route is on rural roads with low motor traffic volumes (which is a good thing).
Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".
Sorry, but my safety takes precedence over your discomfort.... that's not to say I won't happily turn my lights to steady in the unlikely event of someone wheelsucking me me keeping up with a group.
 

[Phil W]

I have a fibre flare on my barley. The flare is so light it doesn't generally bounce around on the filled saddlebag. I also have a tail light / reflector  on the bottom of the mudguard

[jsabine]

I beg to differ.

Yeah, I kind of meant while part of a group, but gave up accuracy in favour of a quick and snide 'FTFY' post.

That said, I was behind someone in London a couple of weeks ago who had a LASER of DETH rear light with an exceptionally fast blink rate, such that it was almost constantly illuminated. It was so unpleasant to look at that I'd bet most drivers' response would be to pass as quickly as they possibly could - I'm not convinced that blinkies, especially silly-bright ones, aren't a bit counterproductive even in the absence of a wheelsucker fellow rider.

[JennyB]

The corollary to this is when you do ride at an offset, the person in front who moves *into* the beam.  What's that about, other than being a newbie thing?  I could understand if they moved further to the left thinking you were about to overtake...

Probably thinking "I can see the road so much better over there" Of course, once they're there, they can't.   

[teethgrinder]

Flashing rear lights are a throwback to the early days of rear diode lights when they weren't very bright. Making rear flashing lights legal in 2004 came 10 years too late. Lights are bright enough now.

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands.

I'm planning to avoid the problem by spending the nights asleep in bed.

[graydog68]

flashin leds can be a pain and eat your eyeball out at 1000yds!!! (about 760m to our not imp riders )

in a pack ride I'd agree fixed light, or at least very high rate flash.
many cars not have a high pwm, and why it seems the rear light seems to drift.

however, with these eyeball eating leds even fixed rate will hurt you tired eyes.......

saftey first or overtake 

[Mr Fitz]

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands.

For us recumbent riders reflective ankle bands probably aren't as visible from behind.  Nevertheless, due to the many useful comments in this thought-provoking thread, I have just bought a load of reflective tape which I intend to drape liberally over me and my bike.

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".

I tend to agree with PpPete's view that - while flashing lights may not be any more visible than a steady light - they do broadcast to car drivers that there's a cyclist ahead.

However, for those LEL participants (including me) who would not necessarily be aware of the anti-social effects of their chosen personal safety system when riding in a group, I would add my vote for the LEL organisers to publish "strong recommendations" - either in a global email, or at registration.

And while we're on the subject of etiquette and respect for others, why not extend such "recommendations" to comment on other issues that may also be a potential cause of upset for some riders.  The use or not of noisy space blankets in the sleeping area comes to mind.  (I have taken the advice of many posters and purchased an emergency blanket - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/amk-heatsheet-emergency-bivvy/ Would this be deemed to constitute a noise hazard?  If so, I'd rather know in advance.)  I'm not suggesting that this should escalate into an EU Commission-style rule book, but one or two sensible guidelines on a few potentially touchy subjects could help avoid unintentional anti-social behaviour.

[L CC]

I'm curious just what safety bonuses (bonii?) people think they're getting from 'better' rear lights wrt motorised traffic. They see you further away... and still pass like knobbers. Or they don't, and don't. We all know that some motorists will ignore your very existence whatever you're wearing in daylight, and fail to see something waved right in front of their face if they happen to be eyes down texting at the wrong moment. I don't use eye searing rear lights if I can possibly help it, because I really don't think it makes a jot of difference to my safety. I don't like flashing rear lights in any circumstances but Chris agrees with PpPete that 'flashing light screams cyclist' (I think it makes distance harder to judge) and that's why we have a flasher. I'm much more likely to have a cyclist behind me for hours who is bothered about it, than a car to whom my existence doesn't even merit a sideways glance, let alone any amendment to their driving. The splay of front lights is much more noticeable, and they actually help me. I commute in unlit lanes for 6 months of the year and ride regular overnight audaxes, and the only 'trouble' I've had in the hours of darkness was being yelled at by loons in a 4x4 coming up to Newport (Wales, not Essex). They saw us fine. Slowed down to have a bloody good gander and shouted abuse. I'd rather have been a bit more invisible, then.

[mattc]

Totally agree, boab. They seem to have very little benefit, and the "hard to judge distance" effect has been proven by actual scientists.

@Mr Fitz,

(click to show/hide)

Well the subject is actually "Lighting etiquette for group riding"
But yes, metallic blankets are a nuisance indoors. They're banned - you shouldn't need one in a control anyway. PLEASE start your own thread for such things (removing shoes in dorms is another obvious related issue).

[Somnolent]

@mattc
do your actual scientists have anything to say on the subject of distance perception to a pair of lights, one steady and one blinking ?

I want to get the best of both worlds.... we have a more than adequate supply of bright but not DETH RAY lights (mostly Smart 1/2 watts of various shapes) , and having abandoned the idea of putting one on saddle bag loop (as discussed upthread)   my current thinking is to mount one low on the seat stay which will be on steady (and pointing horizontally), with another high on the seat stay (which I can hopefully reach the switch of without dismounting) that will be:
on blinky when riding alone
off when riding in a group
and on steady if the battery on the lower one should die mid stage and I CBA to change them until the next control.

Does this meet with the assembled YACF wisdom ?

[marcusjb]

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands

I have been pondering the purchase of some ankle bands as they really do stand out, some one on BCM was using them and I really noticed it then. Big fan of retroreflective stuff anyway. The PBP gilet is brilliant for lots of shiny silver bits at night and make more impact (in my mind) than any light can.

[Bunker22]

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands

I have been pondering the purchase of some ankle bands as they really do stand out, some one on BCM was using them and I really noticed it then. Big fan of retroreflective stuff anyway. The PBP gilet is brilliant for lots of shiny silver bits at night and make more impact (in my mind) than any light can.

May have been me after your kip an Menai?

They are light, dont have batteries to run out, and are in motion to catch drivers eyes. Whats not to like?

[Chuffy]

+1.  If LEL organisers could request require that rear lights should be on constant rather than flashing, that would be useful.

FTFY

I beg to differ.
Much of the LEL route is on rural roads with low motor traffic volumes (which is a good thing).
Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".
Sorry, but my safety takes precedence over your discomfort.... that's not to say I won't happily turn my lights to steady in the unlikely event of someone wheelsucking me me keeping up with a group.

Have to say, I agree with PpPete. I've never understood the problem with flashers, and I spend most of the winter sitting behind Baggy and her array of Smart 1/2ws . That said, I have a collection of rear lights and some have flash patterns that would induce epilepsy in a statue (Moon Shield, yes, you). I also have a Lezyne rear light which is basically a 60 lumen torch which only mounts in a seatpost and can't be adjusted for angle. Ludicrous piece of rubbish.

[teethgrinder]

I have been pondering the purchase of some ankle bands as they really do stand out, some one on BCM was using them and I really noticed it then. Big fan of retroreflective stuff anyway. The PBP gilet is brilliant for lots of shiny silver bits at night and make more impact (in my mind) than any light can.

I use them for keeping my trousers out of my chan when I ride to work and go shopping.
I have used them for Audax. The snap on ones cut into my ankles after a while and get uncomfortable and even painfull. The velcro ones don't breathe so I end up with sore skin and the velcro eventualy comes off. They're also extra faff.
I agree with fboab. Just a set of lights is enough.

[Chris S]

I agree with fboab. Just a set of lights is enough.

And maybe a gilet with Police Polite on it.

[wilkyboy]

Have to say, I agree with PpPete. I've never understood the problem with flashers, and I spend most of the winter sitting behind Baggy and her array of Smart 1/2ws .

The Smart 1/2 Watt flashers are fine, beacuse all the LEDs are behind a fractal lens; it's the 1 Watt focused burn-the-retina-from-mine-eyes flashers that are the real criminals here.

That said, I use the softer flashers for daytime: low sun, dappled shade, rain, that sorta thing, to say "here's a cyclist", but the ambient light means that the contrast between the blinky and what it's bolted to (me and my bike) is relatively small, and so the blinky's purpose is effective.  At night it's all wrong, and the contrast between the light and what it's bolted to is so great that a steady light is more effective.  Both together: nah, it's better to have both on steady, IMO, although am I bovvered?  Only when the blinky's a death-ray and I'm sucking your wheel.

The new-ish Cateye Reflex is nice, because it has a soft fade-in-fade-out mode that never actually goes out, just gets brighter and dimmer, and it is a legal reflector too.  EDIT: I just checked this and I forgot it has a write-my-name-on-the-moon LED in the middle, but a small piece of white tape over that one small area and now it's much more group-friendly.  However, its rectangular shape isn't as aesthetically pleasing juxtaposed with the rounded rear of the saddle (during the day), which is why I am using a much older, elliptical Cateye.  Aesthetics on a bike — who'd'a thought?!  I may swap them over for LEL, because the Reflex switches on automatically when it's dark (and you're moving), and switches off again in the light, which is neat right up until you stick the bike in the boot of a car without switching the light off completely first 

[graydog68]

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than
reflective ankle bands.

For us recumbent riders reflective ankle bands probably aren't as visible from behind.  Nevertheless, due to the many useful comments in this thought-provoking thread, I have just bought a load of reflective tape which I intend to drape liberally over me and my bike.

Nothing screams "CYCLIST" to an otherwise inattentive driver on such a road at night than a bright "blinky".

even harder to see them in our fully faired recumbents
My lights are on a high phase rate (altough i do have 3hz units to)
I've found using flashie bike light I get treated by cars like a bike in the dark when they clearly cant see what it is.....
This is quite worring when heading in to roundabouts and they over take you!!!! I have had in one case the car realise at the last moment how fast I was going, and they could not pull in, basically parking their car at the central bollard..... 

so on the bents in the dark I generally use high phase rate, in the lowlight dawn and evening. flash as high as I can place it.


safty first, but I will take on baord and fit a flash over ride swith for when your coming up to over take me 

there is some good M3 reflective tape on fleabay as I understand, in most colours to match.

on the unfaireds I use flat snaps reflective stripe and karamor running armband high up my arms. These have red fibres otp also. cost £2.99.
also on fitted on rear of lid.
foward and sidewards I have white snap strips.....



got to add this icon as my little boys want sto see it  

[andyoxon]

Good thread.   Just been thinking about how to re arrange my Smart 1/2w and R1 rear lights*; probably going to be along the lines as PpPete suggested.  Praps with R1 top most, so it can be set/turned on or off, while riding with the lower 1/2w on steady.  The R1 also has two low intensity LEDs below the main burner - but not used these on their own before.   Guess there's not two much need for two on together ona group ride.

*  not doing LEL - just visiting thread...

[LEE]

Will cross post with the "bodge it" thread

This is how I affix my rear light.





It uses a P-Clip (with the rubber insert), a standard Cateye bracket and a plastic block (I had loads left over from building some flat-pack furniture).  The blocks are pre-drilled, strong and light.  I wrapped it in black tape.

It's rock-solid but can be tweaked up/down or left/right easily. Without the plastic block the light hits the seat stay before I can get it horizontal, although this is a Cateye 600 issue that wouldn't affect other lights I imagine.

I could get it closer to the wheel by mounting the block the other side of the P-Clip but you start losing light in the mudguard stays and the wheel.  However, I may turn the P-Clip over to get the light more in line with the seat stay.

The close-up photos make the setup appear more obtrusive than it is in reality.