What is Audax?

[321up]

What is Audax?

I find myself re evaluating what Audax is about.  Until recently I viewed Audax as a celebration of human powered achievement.  Audax UK catered for a wide range of human powered achievement from 50km rides up to 1400km and beyond.  You could ride any type of machine on Audax rides, as long as it was human powered.

But the modern generation has spent a lifetime being delivered effortlessly to their destination by motor vehicles and it seems that 77% of Audax members think that it's time to start modernising Audax rides to allow Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC).  These are now allowed on many of the most popular Audax rides (Brevet Populaires).  It seems that the majority of Audax members want to allow EAPC to reduce the effort required to ride Audax events so they are accessible to more riders.  I'm in favour of EAPC where they are used to coax people out of their cars, or for people to continue cycling when ill health would otherwise prevent it, but I'm sad that it's now a temptation for Audax riders to give up being exclusively human powered.  I've always accepted that old age and ill health are likely to prevent me from riding Audax events, but that's ok as there are plenty of rides outside Audax that I enjoy.  Now EAPC riders can now also enjoy Audax, although it's not what it once was.

What does Audax mean to you?

For more information and debate about EAPC on Audax, please go to the Audax Forum (we are not allowed to debate Audax policy on YACF).

[alfapete]

I hope we don't make this TOO big an issue.

My initial reaction was dismay, but I doubt that more than 2 or 3 riders will use EAPC's over the next year and I'd rather include rather than exclude them.

No big deal

[321up]

I hope we don't make this TOO big an issue.

My initial reaction was dismay, but I doubt that more than 2 or 3 riders will use EAPC's over the next year and I'd rather include rather than exclude them.

No big deal

I'm curious to know what Audax means to others (including non members who can't access the Audax Forum).  To me it is/was a celebration of human powered achievement - if it's not that then what is it?  It's proving a big issue for me to adjust my perception.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I have absolutely no problem with folk riding electric bikes for an Audax but getting homologated is absurd. Audax UK is the only randonneur organisation in the world to equate riding by human power alone with power-assisted riding.

[Chris S]

I'm curious to know what Audax means to others (including non members who can't access the Audax Forum).  To me it is/was a celebration of human powered achievement - if it's not that then what is it?  It's proving a big issue for me to adjust my perception.

(My Bold)

Maybe that's the point. To you, it's that. To others - it probably means something else. For example, I always thought Audax encompassed rides that are audacious. To some, that means riding a lot of hills. To others, it might mean getting out on your bike with others even though that's a really hard thing to do for some reason, and if EAPCs aid in that, then perhaps it's a good thing?

For my part - the audaciousness has come from the sheer distances involved. I'm not a fan of the whole "My ride is hillier than your ride" pissing contest that's been going on with some rides; quite possibly because (it would seem) latterly I can't ride a bike uphill without being carted off in an ambulance  .

Riding a bike (a long way) is audacious. The nature of the bike, what "a long way" means, and the perceived difficulty - are all variables in the mix.

Like alfapete, I was pretty sneery when the EAPC motion was passed, but it's likely to have minimal affect overall, so I'm having less of a hard time processing it than I thought I would.

[tippers_kiwi]

I have only been Audaxing for 1 season but it suits me perfectly and turns out it seems to be 'my thing'to do on a bike.

It helps me keep fit, gives me something to work towards and the only real measure I need to worry about it myself. It's an adventure of how far I can push myself.

For me I think Audax is about the Personal Challenge and the People who take part.

[Andrew]

Following on from Chris S, I'd say as long as Audax UK (and others such worldwide) continue to offer the kind of rides that I want to do then I really don't mind who else rides nor on what. Even red bikes. And I hate red bikes.

Neither do I mind if those rides are homologated (if that's the word - get a stamped bit of cardboard in my parlance). Someone else's achievements do not rob me of mine. It doesn't concern me if someone else does it faster/further/higher/on a red bike.

Tbh, I'm equally bemused amused when walls start getting built and the citadel defended. It's a bike ride, I'd do it whether it was called audax or macaroni, whether I got a stamped bit of cardboard or a pain au raisin. No, I tell a lie. I'd prefer the danish.

[Euan Uzami]

Maybe that's the point. To you, it's that. To others - it probably means something else. For example, I always thought Audax encompassed rides that are audacious. To some, that means riding a lot of hills. To others, it might mean getting out on your bike with others even though that's a really hard thing to do for some reason, and if EAPCs aid in that, then perhaps it's a good thing?

maybe expecting a battery to last up to 200km is audacious in itself 

[321up]

Maybe that's the point. To you, it's that. To others - it probably means something else.

Yes, that's the point of this topic.  I probably need to adjust my perceptions, but what am I adjusting them too?  What direction is Audax UK going in?

Is Audax about gaining achievements through effort or cursing around a course just for fun?  I see Audax as sitting between CTC type 'just for fun' rides and racing/sportive's/timetrials 'it's all about speed'.  I like Audax because it can be a personal achievement and fun.

The public perception of Audax will depend on its fundamental principles, and that will influence what members Audax UK gets in future.  So I think "What is Audax?" is a big issue.  Human power only was a fundamental principle in my view. 

[Euan Uzami]

Hopefully this is the right place to post this, but part of the reason i voted against it is: is it not a slippery slope? Where does it end - will 50cc-ers be let in?

The devil's advocate pov is they're not getting points and they're not getting qualified for PBP, so what does it matter if they get a piece of cardboard with a stamp. I suppose if they're getting awards.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The original enquiry that prompted this absurd proposal was to enter and ride brevets but there was no intent to be homologated. Somehow we've ended up with this dog's breakfast of a result.

There already are riders entering 200+km brevets with electric bikes. Organisers don't do bike checks at the start or at the finish of brevets, so they have no idea who is riding electric bikes. The range of some electric bikes is getting towards 80km already and there is nothing preventing battery swaps at controls and fast chargers keep getting better.

There are already electric bikes that can be swapped between UK-legal 250 Watt continuous outputs and 'off-road' higher outputs without tools. Anybody want to rack up AAA points with 500 extra Watts of assistance and 20 mph road speeds? All it takes is the desire to do so.

[Veloman]

But the modern generation has spent a lifetime being delivered effortlessly to their destination by motor vehicles and it seems that 77% of Audax members think that it's time to start modernising Audax rides to allow Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC).

Minor point, but 77% of those members that bothered to vote did vote in favour of allowing EAPC on BP events.  Total number of people who voted on this issue numbered 503 members.

Membership currently 6286.  Suggests to me this is a minor issue.

For what its worth, I agree with LWB regards homologation, but do not see this as affecting me in any way whatsoever and neither do I think it will affect long distance cycling as I consider the long distance element starting at 200km.

I would probably get more annoyed when someone enters an event requiring mudguards and they don't bother with mudguards.  Again, no check on this so an absurd requirement.  So I just ignore whatever is going on and just do my own thing.  So audax for me allows me to achieve personal goals and EAPC will not affect my goals.

[Euan Uzami]

Maybe this is a direct consequence of the (deliberate) lack of a competitive element.
Maybe people (the people who voted in favour) think - becaue it's not competitive I'm not affecting anybody else ['s chances of winning anything] by having an electric bike, so why do they have a right to care whether I ride one?

Perhaps we need competition if for no other reason as a justification to enforce what we see as a level playing field.
But why do we need a level playing field if we're not 'playing' anything....

[Aunt Maud]

Oh what the hell.

I don't give a flying kucf whether bikes with batteries are ridden in any of these events or not, but I can see LWaBs point and I can appreciate why he's concerned.

There are just far too many small rules and regulations for me and it's spoiling the game.

And that's what it is peeps, a game, that we do for fun in our spare time.

[Hot Flatus]

You know what....there is an electric bike shop in town.

I think you guys might be looking at next years points champion 

[Veloman]

Anybody want to rack up AAA points with 500 extra Watts of assistance and 20 mph road speeds? All it takes is the desire to do so.

Can we leave the side show issue of AAA to one side as I believe AAA is not really AUK main business and we should not be considering decisions applicable to AUK and audax based on something as AAA/fixed/tandem or whatever.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Audax/ randonneuring is a simple pass or fail challenge - Complete the chosen course on the chosen day within the time limits using human power alone.

Now you have the option to motor around. I don't have a problem with them riding an event with their friends (or alone) but I do have a problem with having official recognition that they have reached the same standard as somebody riding on muscle power alone.

[321up]

Maybe this is a direct consequence of the (deliberate) lack of a competitive element.
Maybe people (the people who voted in favour) think - becaue it's not competitive I'm not affecting anybody else ['s chances of winning anything] by having an electric bike, so why do they have a right to care whether I ride one?

Perhaps we need competition if for no other reason as a justification to enforce what we see as a level playing field.
But why do we need a level playing field if we're not 'playing' anything....

So if AUK is getting rid of all competitive elements are they going to get rid of points, results tables, controls, awards, medals, trophy's?  What will Audax be without these?  I'll still enjoy riding my bike without those things, but I can do that without AUK membership and without paying entry fees for rides.

[marcusjb]

I'm pretty okay with the modification of the regulation for BPs, partly because I really don't count them as part of Audax as I know it. 

I know they are the cash cow, but I'd rather see BPs as not part of AUK and that includes AAA points on anything under 200km etc. - so I think my definition of "what is Audax" is there. 

AUK regulation talk below:

(click to show/hide)

LWaB's suggestions that an EAPC could be used on any distance but not homoliwhatsited is great, but surely if the rider of an EAPC is riding it on an a machine that isn't officially-sanctioned, then they just become "any other cyclist" (from reg 9.9.3) and jeopordise everyone's homoliwhatsigations due to the pacing regulations? 

I want to to win the points championship (I don't, I'd rather have my pubic hair removed with a blowtorch), so I get my mate on his EAPC to enter every event I am doing and sit in front of me and take the wind for me. 

EAPCs will evolve dramatically over the coming years, particularly in terms of range. 

I really do understand LWaB's concerns on the original modifcation, but I struggle to see that the option of just allowing anyone with an EAPC to turn up on any distance event but just not to offer homologation can be fair on other riders.

[Aunt Maud]

There are different standards to riding brevets and they existed before the issue of battery bikes was raised.

Some people like a bag drop or a hotel stay and some people like to sleep on bags of charcoal on garage forecourts and eat cat shit and gravel for breakfast. On a 600km BRM they all get the same result, but they are very different approaches to doing the same thing.

Maybe there should be a category for purists who like to do it all with what they can carry and under their own steam.

[Euan Uzami]

So if AUK is getting rid of all competitive elements are they going to get rid of points, results tables, controls, awards, trophy's?  I'll still enjoy riding my bike without those things, but I can do that without AUK membership and without paying entry fees for rides.

Aside from controls and awards, which aren't competitive, I believe they're trying to.

[Exit Stage Left]

 some people like to sleep on bags of charcoal on garage forecourts and eat cat shit and gravel for breakfast.

We soft water area dwellers have always been jealous of those bags of water softening salt on forecourts in the limescale areas. There's never been a level playing field.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Get homologated for riding a Ducati round a BP. How is this situation different to all of the arguments for allowing electric bikes to be homologated on a BP?

[T42]

I have absolutely no problem with folk riding electric bikes for an Audax but getting homologated is absurd. Audax UK is the only randonneur organisation in the world to equate riding by human power alone with power-assisted riding.

Agree completely. Allowing them homologation devalues everyone else's effort.

[Veloman]

Some people like a bag drop or a hotel stay and some people like to sleep on bags of charcoal on garage forecourts and eat cat shit and gravel for breakfast.

Hey, I missed that breakfast!