Author Topic: Tour de France 2012  (Read 143062 times)

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #550 on: 14 July, 2012, 08:40:31 pm »
Cav has been dropped on nasty little climbs near the finish like that on stages in the past when he's been tipped to win. Even with all of his HTC team mates around him. He can barely get over a railway bridge - even if he has lost 4 kilos!
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

welshwheels

  • stop eating cheeseburgers big boy!!!!
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #551 on: 14 July, 2012, 08:50:16 pm »
Cav has been dropped on nasty little climbs near the finish like that on stages in the past when he's been tipped to win. Even with all of his HTC team mates around him. He can barely get over a railway bridge - even if he has lost 4 kilos!
  ;D I agree he will never win yellow but  in a bunch sprint finish your money has got to be on cav ? (mine iS)
 when he was at H T C he was the superstar in the team and everything worked around him it must be a bit of a blow for him not only to be playing second fiddle to wiggo to be left on his todd  on astage with a sprint finish like today .         

I agree that the G C is the most important part of the tour but on a stage like today I would have thought sky would have tried to have cav there for the final sprint ?
struggling up hills since 1981 !!!

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #552 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:00:43 pm »
Brad said in his post race interview that they had discussed that but the split was too big to do anything about.

Froome is contracted for another 2 years to Sky. I can see him being the 'second GT leader' for the Vuelta, and maybe the Giro. Then we will see. Will one yellow jersey be enough for wiggins?
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

welshwheels

  • stop eating cheeseburgers big boy!!!!
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #553 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:06:19 pm »
I think once he has a taste of yellow he will want more  :thumbsup: He was impressive in the final 1k when he got on the front and led out for evb real quality there !!
struggling up hills since 1981 !!!

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #554 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:11:09 pm »
... Will one yellow jersey be enough for wiggins?

I doubt it.  Was one GC win ever enough for Contador, Armstrong, Indurain, LeMond, Fignon, Hinault, Thévenet or Merckx? (just going back to 1970 and Merckx's wins).

If they think they're capable of winning again, they're clearly going to keep on trying, because after all, who wouldn't. ;D
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #555 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:22:27 pm »
Is the Times contriving coverage of an event no-one's invested in? No. Fer chrissakes, we've been complaining for years that cycle racing gets a bum deal from the mainstream press. Now they're flavour of the month, we're going to complain because a Murdoch paper gives a Murdoch-sponsored team some space? Are the other papers ignoring the Tour because they don't like a competitor's team doing the winning? No, of course they aren't. Enjoy it while it lasts, no doubt we'll be back to obscurity soon enough.

Totally agree with TimC.

As I have already indicated, there are some very negative comments regarding the TDF on this Forum and it would appear that when we are in the best position we have ever been in the TDF as a nation, all some want to do is moan about something; commentary, tactics, drugs, press coverage etc etc.

My reaction is similar in sentiment to that of BW, if that is all you have got to contribute, then well ...............

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #556 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:31:52 pm »
Brad said in his post race interview that they had discussed that but the split was too big to do anything about.

Froome is contracted for another 2 years to Sky. I can see him being the 'second GT leader' for the Vuelta, and maybe the Giro. Then we will see. Will one yellow jersey be enough for wiggins?
Then someone was asleep on the job. Cav should never have been allowed to be the wrong side of the split. This was probably his only chance till the last day to have a serious chance of another stage, and as World Champion he should have been put in the right place to have a shot - how come EBH had that chance and Cav didn't? Yes, I know these things happen - and it may have been Cav himself that was asleep - but it seems a damn shame

As for Froome, he'll stay if the cheque is. If enough and he's given a shot at the Vuelta and/or Giro.

Tour de France 2012
« Reply #557 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:33:35 pm »
Surely when Wiggo said the "Olympic TT is NOT a target for me as I've promised I'll work Cav in the road race" the return is Cav will have to do his own thing in the TdF this year.

If BC/Brailsford can decide on Cav winning a WC 3 years out I'm sure this TdF and Olympics were discussed prior to Cav signing for Sky.

Next year when the TdF is full of climbing again Froome can climb with Wiggo in support and Cav can have 3 dedicated to the sprint train.

Also today i only saw 2 top sprinters that made it over the top today, greipel and hauteurwhatisname. (albeit I had no commentary).



Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #558 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:33:51 pm »
He got dropped on that hill 25km before the end and no-one in the group he was dropped with had any desire to catch up. He clearly realised he couldn't do it alone and sat up.

I reckon if this were the Olympic Road Race then all of Sky would have hung back, let him keep going and dragged him up to the front for the sprint finish. At least, I'm hoping that's what'd happen!

The 'main man' in the Olympic RR is Cav.  The team will support him just as he was supported during the WC.

The 'main man' in the TDF is BW and Cav knows that.  The team could not go back and leave BW to his own means as it could jeopardise the GC.  If Cav could not get up the hill like Greipal and Sagan, then he does not expect to win the stage.  Also, if Cav thought he was in with a chance, he would have conserved far more energy on the stage and have been further up the front.  I think stages 15/18/20 will better suit Cav.  Interesting to note that some expected him to have packed by now in order to rest for Olympics.  Still time for that to happen though and I'm sure the backroom staff are considering the suffering/benefit factors.

Toady

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #559 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:38:42 pm »
 When Cav signed for Sky I didn't understand why but assumed that this was due to my ignorance of pro racing and all would become clear. It has not done so. I still don't understand why. For Sky,  why employ a superstar sprinter as little more than  a non-climbing domestique when a top rouleur would be of more use to the team? For Cav why join a team that has other fish to fry and cannot support you? All I can think is that Cav provides Sky with a famous face and Sky provide him with a lot of dosh.

Tour de France 2012
« Reply #560 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:41:03 pm »
Brad said in his post race interview that they had discussed that but the split was too big to do anything about.

Froome is contracted for another 2 years to Sky. I can see him being the 'second GT leader' for the Vuelta, and maybe the Giro. Then we will see. Will one yellow jersey be enough for wiggins?
Then someone was asleep on the job. Cav should never have been allowed to be the wrong side of the split. This was probably his only chance till the last day to have a serious chance of another stage, and as World Champion he should have been put in the right place to have a shot - how come EBH had that chance and Cav didn't? Yes, I know these things happen - and it may have been Cav himself that was asleep - but it seems a damn shame

As for Froome, he'll stay if the cheque is. If enough and he's given a shot at the Vuelta and/or Giro.

I believe there is a real flat day on Friday for Cav.

Why should half or more of a team wait for Cav to get over a tough dig when he has little chance of getting back into the lead group?  The reason EBH had a shot is because he went over the top of the climb in the lead group.

plum

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #561 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:42:51 pm »
The devil mentioned earlier was removed from coverage two years ago because he took sponsorship. Can't remember exactly, was Coke or something like that splashed all over the big bike and they wouldn't allow the advertising.

As for Cav, they must be paying him an awful lot of money.

welshwheels

  • stop eating cheeseburgers big boy!!!!
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #562 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:44:20 pm »
but it is a shame for cav to be a rainbow jersey wearing domestique                                                        

struggling up hills since 1981 !!!

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #563 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:47:43 pm »
Is the Times contriving coverage of an event no-one's invested in? No. Fer chrissakes, we've been complaining for years that cycle racing gets a bum deal from the mainstream press. Now they're flavour of the month, we're going to complain because a Murdoch paper gives a Murdoch-sponsored team some space? Are the other papers ignoring the Tour because they don't like a competitor's team doing the winning? No, of course they aren't. Enjoy it while it lasts, no doubt we'll be back to obscurity soon enough.

Totally agree with TimC.

As I have already indicated, there are some very negative comments regarding the TDF on this Forum and it would appear that when we are in the best position we have ever been in the TDF as a nation, all some want to do is moan about something; commentary, tactics, drugs, press coverage etc etc.

My reaction is similar in sentiment to that of BW, if that is all you have got to contribute, then well ...............


Yebbut, as ani fule kno, we BRITONS aren't happy unless we have something, or someone to bitch about.  :demon:
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #564 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:49:53 pm »
Brad said in his post race interview that they had discussed that but the split was too big to do anything about.

Froome is contracted for another 2 years to Sky. I can see him being the 'second GT leader' for the Vuelta, and maybe the Giro. Then we will see. Will one yellow jersey be enough for wiggins?
Then someone was asleep on the job. Cav should never have been allowed to be the wrong side of the split. This was probably his only chance till the last day to have a serious chance of another stage, and as World Champion he should have been put in the right place to have a shot - how come EBH had that chance and Cav didn't? Yes, I know these things happen - and it may have been Cav himself that was asleep - but it seems a damn shame

As for Froome, he'll stay if the cheque is. If enough and he's given a shot at the Vuelta and/or Giro.

I believe there is a real flat day on Friday for Cav.

Why should half or more of a team wait for Cav to get over a tough dig when he has little chance of getting back into the lead group?  The reason EBH had a shot is because he went over the top of the climb in the lead group.

They shouldn't, of course - and I did say it may have been Cav who screwed it up - but it is a damn shame. Of course, it may all be part of the great Brailsford Olympic Plan!

Tour de France 2012
« Reply #565 on: 14 July, 2012, 09:59:35 pm »
Brad said in his post race interview that they had discussed that but the split was too big to do anything about.

Froome is contracted for another 2 years to Sky. I can see him being the 'second GT leader' for the Vuelta, and maybe the Giro. Then we will see. Will one yellow jersey be enough for wiggins?
Then someone was asleep on the job. Cav should never have been allowed to be the wrong side of the split. This was probably his only chance till the last day to have a serious chance of another stage, and as World Champion he should have been put in the right place to have a shot - how come EBH had that chance and Cav didn't? Yes, I know these things happen - and it may have been Cav himself that was asleep - but it seems a damn shame

As for Froome, he'll stay if the cheque is. If enough and he's given a shot at the Vuelta and/or Giro.

I believe there is a real flat day on Friday for Cav.

Why should half or more of a team wait for Cav to get over a tough dig when he has little chance of getting back into the lead group?  The reason EBH had a shot is because he went over the top of the climb in the lead group.

They shouldn't, of course - and I did say it may have been Cav who screwed it up - but it is a damn shame. Of course, it may all be part of the great Brailsford Olympic Plan!

We seem to be too hard on Cav. Today was a tough dig with 23k ish left from the top. Maybe if Lotto hadn't chased down Vino/Albadini he may of got back.

I've never been up Box Hill or checked out the gradients but is it a hill Cav can do 9 times and be close enough to be bought back to the lead group by 4 team mates before they hit that Landon ??? Or should I be betting on a Sagan/Gilbert type ???

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Tour de France 2012
« Reply #566 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:04:16 pm »
Cav should never have been allowed to be the wrong side of the split. This was probably his only chance till the last day to have a serious chance of another stage, and as World Champion he should have been put in the right place to have a shot - how come EBH had that chance and Cav didn't?

The steepest part of that climb was 20%. Evans attacked... They would have had to sacrifice the yellow jersey just for a non-guaranteed chance of a stage win for Cav today.

Anyway, you may have noticed that Cav didn't even contest the intermediate sprint yesterday. He's not chasing scraps. There are two reasons Cav is still in this Tour: 1. Keeping in race shape for the Olympics. 2. The opportunity to make it 4 out of 4 on the Champs-Elysées. You can guarantee that Sky will give him the full lead-out in Paris and looking at the form book, I'm betting on him to take it. Greipel is looking very good but he won't beat Cav if he really wants it.

We might see Cav trying to contest stages 15 and/or 18, but far more likely that he'll keep his powder dry for Paris.

Quote
As for Froome, he'll stay if the cheque is. If enough and he's given a shot at the Vuelta and/or Giro.

He'll stay if he has any sense because no other team will give him a better chance of success.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #567 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:09:39 pm »
I believe there is a real flat day on Friday for Cav.

Hopefully he'll come round Greipel again and show him who's boss. He's getting a bit big for his boots and needs bringing down a peg or two. The Twat
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Tour de France 2012
« Reply #568 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:16:33 pm »
why employ a superstar sprinter as little more than  a non-climbing domestique when a top rouleur would be of more use to the team?

He won a stage, might have won two more if things had gone his way, and will probably win at least one more.

Sheesh, I guess it's a sign of how far we've come when we have a British World Champion who's won a stage of the Tour de France and we're complaining because the team is putting its efforts into backing the British rider who's leading GC...

It never rains, eh?

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Tour de France 2012
« Reply #569 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:24:52 pm »
At the end of the day, whilst winning stages is important, it's not as important to any team as keeping the Yellow Jersey, quite possibly until the end, so Cav lost out to Wiggins, quite rightly.

Cav is never likely to win the Yellow Jersey on The Tour, he's not really enough of a climber.  Even if he has improved his performance on the hills, this Tour has shown that he's still not enough of an all rounder to keep the Yellow Jersey.  Wiggins on the other hand, can, and the Yellow Jersey has a lot more credibility for advertising than individual stages, and at the end of the day, the team has to keep it's profile high, so that it's advertisers get coverage, since that's basically what they're paying for.

What I think a lot of the responses in this thread reflect is the fact that the majority of the British public, even the ones who follow cycling, don't really understand why stage wins don't equate to overall victory.

How is it that Brad has won only won stage but is likely to win overall, while Cav has won 21 stages but will never wear the yellow jersey? Eh? Eh? Eh?

This is why Chris Hoy is so popular - it's much easier (and less time consuming)* to follow track racing (silly events like the points race notwithstanding).

d.

*and less interesting.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #570 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:29:16 pm »
[snipped to save space - Ed]

We seem to be too hard on Cav. Today was a tough dig with 23k ish left from the top. Maybe if Lotto hadn't chased down Vino/Albadini he may of got back.

I've never been up Box Hill or checked out the gradients but is it a hill Cav can do 9 times and be close enough to be bought back to the lead group by 4 team mates before they hit that Landon ??? Or should I be betting on a Sagan/Gilbert type ???

Elsewhere on the webs, I noticed yesterday that someone had quoted Laurent Jalabert as saying that many riders were going to find that hill to be a nasty surprise. He wasn't wrong.

By itself, the hill might not have been a problem, but it was the strong cross-wind that ultimately led to the back half of the peloton sitting up. You may remember that cross-winds were an issue on stages 3 and 5 of the 2009 edition of the Tour  ;):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Tour_de_France,_Stage_1_to_Stage_11#Stage_3

Regarding Box Hill, I used to live nearby - it's not especially steep, though the part before the first hairpin on the way up always used to feel somewhat "draggy". The pros should be able to ride it on the big ring*. After the last circuit, there should be enough distance back to the finish in that London to get back on if a split forms.

* My personal opinion is that if there wasn't a level crossing on the road, they should have taken the route further east to Betchworth, and climbed on to the downs up the B2032 Pebblehill Road instead. It's a shorter climb than Box Hill, but it's nastier. When you get to Pebble Coombe, the gradient kicks up dramatically. Put it like this, if I was riding southwards on that road, I could be nudging 50mph at the point between Fraser Wood and Dawcombe Wood...

Linky


EDIT - earlier post quoted for context.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Toady

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #571 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:42:29 pm »

He won a stage, might have won two more if things had gone his way, and will probably win at least one more.

Sheesh, I guess it's a sign of how far we've come when we have a British World Champion who's won a stage of the Tour de France and we're complaining because the team is putting its efforts into backing the British rider who's leading GC...

It never rains, eh?

d.
I see what you mean, but I wasn't complaining about today. I just don't really understand why Cavendish chose Sky (and vice versa). It doesn't seem to be a marriage made iI heaven.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Tour de France 2012
« Reply #572 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:43:33 pm »
Elsewhere on the webs, I noticed yesterday that someone had quoted Laurent Jalabert as saying that many riders were going to find that hill to be a nasty surprise. He wasn't wrong.

If there's one team you can guarantee had done their homework, it's Sky. Evans and Van Den Broeck also seemed to know when to make their move.

Quote
Regarding Box Hill, I used to live nearby - it's not especially steep, though the part before the first hairpin on the way up always used to feel somewhat "draggy".

Today's climb was much harder than Box Hill and was only a cat 3...

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Tour de France 2012
« Reply #573 on: 14 July, 2012, 10:47:41 pm »
I just don't really understand why Cavendish chose Sky (and vice versa). It doesn't seem to be a marriage made iI heaven.

Well, he's said himself that he's benefited from Sky's training methods, especially with regard to preparing for the Olympics.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

plum

Re: Tour de France 2012
« Reply #574 on: 14 July, 2012, 11:12:08 pm »
Cav should never have been allowed to be the wrong side of the split. This was probably his only chance till the last day to have a serious chance of another stage, and as World Champion he should have been put in the right place to have a shot - how come EBH had that chance and Cav didn't?
2. The opportunity to make it 4 out of 4 on the Champs-Elysées. You can guarantee that Sky will give him the full lead-out in Paris
If he hangs around that long?