Author Topic: Daytime lights?  (Read 12425 times)

tonycollinet

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #25 on: 21 July, 2013, 10:36:33 pm »
Drove past a time trial yesterday. Some of the riders were running flashing leds along the lines of the 1/2W single or double smarts. This was in bright sun, and they were remarkably effective.

I felt it justified my (sometime) use of them  ;D


Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #26 on: 21 July, 2013, 11:58:58 pm »
Lots (all?) TTs ask for rear LEDs these days.

mattc

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #27 on: 22 July, 2013, 09:59:07 am »
Lots (all?) TTs ask for rear LEDs these days.
Far from all, I think. And it's only in local events - the idea is frequently voted down at national level.

I wish people would stop trying to tell the whole country how to ride  :facepalm: If you want to use one - in broad daylight or grey rainy conditions - just do it, but don't bang on about it.

From my experience in similar meetings - and reading hearsay about other clubs - these  "we recommend SafetyMeasureX" are always a compromise: a few members will demand a "compulsory X" rule, the rest say it should be down to the rider, and the compromise reached is a " we recommend X" clause in event guidelines. Nobody actually wants such words!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #28 on: 22 July, 2013, 10:55:14 am »
I have dynamo main lights on both bikes. I just leave them on at all times.

Gandalf

  • Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #29 on: 22 July, 2013, 11:43:39 am »
I always have a smart light and a something blinky up front on board even in this weather.

I sometimes feel the need to switch them on when I'm going through lanes with a heavy tree canopy as it gets surprisingly dark all of a sudden.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #30 on: 22 July, 2013, 12:11:30 pm »
I usually have my rear light on at all times when commuting (in London) as most days I will go either through the Lower Thames Street underpass and/or under the lengthy rail bridge that carries all the tracks out of Waterloo Station. In both, I've noticed how quickly cyclists without lights disappear into the gloom.  I wouldn't as a general rule, though.
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #31 on: 22 July, 2013, 05:56:59 pm »
Lots (all?) TTs ask for rear LEDs these days.
Far from all, I think. And it's only in local events - the idea is frequently voted down at national level.

I wish people would stop trying to tell the whole country how to ride  :facepalm: If you want to use one - in broad daylight or grey rainy conditions - just do it, but don't bang on about it.

From my experience in similar meetings - and reading hearsay about other clubs - these  "we recommend SafetyMeasureX" are always a compromise: a few members will demand a "compulsory X" rule, the rest say it should be down to the rider, and the compromise reached is a " we recommend X" clause in event guidelines. Nobody actually wants such words!
Unfortunately not. Sometimes the COMPULSORY X! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! sect gain sufficient volume that it's written into the articles. And then people leave the club. Or perhaps that's just me/here.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #32 on: 22 July, 2013, 06:31:39 pm »
They had a compulsory daytime headlights rule in Poland for many years from November to March - the grey months. I suppose Polish roads are a bit similar to those in Scandinavia, in that they are broad, straight and not terribly busy, and most of the drivers are doubling the speed limit, straight up the middle of the road between two trucks, daring each other to give way. In those conditions - well, it's a sop for enforcing rules and altering driver behaviour, but in as far as those conditions are present, it makes sense. In town or on busy roads generally, not so much. Now they've extended the rule to cover the rest of the year.

DRLs are a bit different - because they're automatic, because they're usually front only, and because they're not designed to cast much light on the road. So when you enter that tree tunnel, the car shows up but the driver's view of the road doesn't improve so much.

It's hard to fix DRLs for non-motorised vehicles and pedestrians, so compulsory hi-viz is the logical answer. Could be a bit uncomfortable in this weather. Thankfully it hasn't got to the UN yet.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #33 on: 22 July, 2013, 06:32:43 pm »
With the number of cars on the road fitted with fairy lights DRLs increasing, it is already becoming harder to see other cars mixed in among them, let alone bikes.  As the driver of a dark grey car without DRLs (it's new but, despite a total front end redesign in the 2012 model year, was already type approved so sidestepped the regs) I am aware that I might no longer be very visible.

Even Halfrauds admit this

Quote
As more vehicles appear on the road with DRLs on, older vehicles will be at a disadvantage in terms of visibility. So it's expected that drivers with older vehicles will choose to add DRLs or will drive with sidelights or dipped headlights on.

So we're in the worst possible situation where some vehicles have DRLs and some don't.  If all vehicles have them then it's OK, just rather wasteful.  if no vehicles have them it's OK.  I don't believe the studies showing DRLs increase safety recognised that there is a 20 year transition period during which it is probably more dangerous.
They're not admitting it - they're claiming it, so they can sell more DRL kits.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Nick H.

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #34 on: 06 June, 2018, 03:12:04 am »
<bump>
Anybody seen the massive push Trek/Bontrager is having on running lights? Their GB home page https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/ shouts
Quote
"If you do only one thing do this..When cars did it, they reduced accidents by 25%. And motorcycles saw a 13% drop. Bicycle Daytime Running Lights just make sense..Bontrager’s have unique properties that allow them to be seen during the day..By directing or amplifying output, we intensify the beam or extend its range. Without this, a light may appear bright, but will not be noticed in the day...Using a flashing rear light in the day makes you 2.4x more noticeable than with no lights at all, and 1.4x than in steady mode...8 out of 10 cycling accidents occur during the day. Daytime Running Lights are the single most effective product to help increase your noticeability during the day...Bontrager Daytime Running Lights are detectable from a greater distance than other lights, from ¼ mile to over 2km away in daylight..If you’re looking to reduce the chance of an accident, research suggests that riding with a flashing light that’s daylight visible is the single best product solution to help make a cyclist more noticeable https://youtu.be/UB5T2HbkcOQ"

Strong stuff. I don't know what to think.

The driving where I live in Brixton is so bad that you'd need to throw a continuous stream of hand grenades in front of you to get people to pay attention. When I was a motorcycle courier I always noticed extra idiocy here. Now it's much worse. I reckon a lot of people have used a brown envelope to pass their test. And there are plenty who don't think twice about driving while stoned. Traffic laws may as well not exist. Traffic police don't patrol any more, they just turn up to measure skidmarks when somebody dies. Now that they have ANPR and the Met has switched crime resources to terrorism, traffic cars are all busy with more important things than traffic. Traffic bikes are pretty much extinct because all the riders are protecting politicians. End of rant.

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #35 on: 06 June, 2018, 08:46:09 am »
there's a smattering of (nouveau) cyclists roundhere who insist upon the strobing up and blinding me during daylight hours....it's also rumoured the same cyclists have to rig up mountaineering harnesses to sit on the bog at home with a inflatable ramp a la aeroplanes in case of a sudden ejection ?
look down from t' hills across a land traversed..having known at least a route through, and written it in body and ascribed the mind to its ways

Jaded

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #36 on: 06 June, 2018, 09:06:50 am »
8 out of ten cycling accidents occur during day.

My, that’s surprising....
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #37 on: 06 June, 2018, 09:24:36 am »
I'm sure I read a year or two ago that Germany has made DRLs compulsory for new ebikes. Or possibly it was for all new bikes.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #38 on: 06 June, 2018, 10:16:59 am »
<bump>
Anybody seen the massive push Trek/Bontrager is having on running lights? Their GB home page https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/ shouts
Quote
"If you do only one thing do this..
buy some expensive shit from Bontrager"


FTFY !
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #39 on: 06 June, 2018, 11:04:07 am »
I daylight flash a somewhat visible 1W smart rear light on the commute, solo rides, and a-roads on any ride... (Front light generally when gloomy)   It's high up on the seat stay so easily turned on and off.   I think that many drivers do look without seeing, i.e. don't 'register' properly.  Of course there are always some who see and don't care, or give space - on TINAT my light didn't prevent a motorbike going passed us at about 80mph on a clear stretch of a-'road, without even moving over.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Kim

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #40 on: 06 June, 2018, 11:56:22 am »
I'll occasionally switch my (dyanmo) lights on in clear daylight (rather than foul weather or low sun, where lights might actually make sense) if I'm travelling at speed or negotiating a big, scary roundabout on a recumbent and want to avoid a SMIDSY.  I've got a nice easy switch on the handlebars[1], so it's minimal effort to do so.  But realistically, the funny bike does far more for my seeability (and drivers giving a fuck) than any lighting solution will.  The (dynamo) lights on my Brompton are usually left in 'senso' mode, which switches to DRL in daylight, simply because the switch is awkward to reach.

DRLs are useful on cars, in that they tell you the car is switched on and therefore in motion or liable to move.  On a two-wheeler, the presence of a rider conveys the same information.  If DRLs aren't used consistently you can't rely on them, though, which reduces the safety of those without them.  TBH, I think this is an arms race we could do without, but it's a bit late for that now.  Can't really blame the manufacturers for cashing in on it.

I remain sceptical of the safety benefits of bike lights (as pertains to interaction with motorists, rather than seeing where you're going or as lemming repellent) generally.



[1] Legacy of the IQ-X switch fault fiasco.

mattc

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #41 on: 06 June, 2018, 12:21:05 pm »
TBH, I think this is an arms race we could do without, but it's a bit late for that now.  Can't really blame the manufacturers for cashing in on it.

They're not the starving population of the 3rd world, desperate for more sales just to feed their children. So yes, I can blame them.

But I'm not surprised.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #42 on: 06 June, 2018, 02:41:37 pm »

Oh great, day time running lights... yet another victim blaming pile of bollocks from people tho can't get their head round the basic problem on our streets is shit drivers, not invisible cyclists.

Once again, let us look to the Dutch to see how this works. Day time running lights? You're lucky if any cyclists have any reflectors, let alone lights. And yet they have some of the best KSI numbers of any developed nation. You can dress cyclists up in body armour, you can make them fluoresce in the slightest of daylight, you can cover them in blinky flashy illuminations. But they are still going to get splatted by badly designed HGV's, on roads that haven't so much been designed, as allowed to spontaneously come into existance...

You want to save cyclists, start by educating drivers, then move on to fixing the roads. Anything else is just victim blaming bullshit.

From Amsterdam.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #43 on: 06 June, 2018, 02:47:34 pm »
You want to save cyclists, start by educating drivers, then move on to fixing the roads.

Or vice-versa, if you want it to happen slightly faster than it has been in the UK, where educating drivers is a nice easy soft option that means nobody has to do anything.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #44 on: 06 June, 2018, 02:52:47 pm »
Once again, let us look to the Dutch to see how this works. Day time running lights? You're lucky if any cyclists have any reflectors, let alone lights. And yet they have some of the best KSI numbers of any developed nation.
All a bit of a contrast to India, where all the cars, trucks and motorbikes have lights but use them randomly. And they have terrible KSI but again that's really down to the non-following of basic rules (like drive on the left) and to an extent the state of the rules (pavements?).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #45 on: 06 June, 2018, 02:58:54 pm »
Or vice-versa, if you want it to happen slightly faster than it has been in the UK, where educating drivers is a nice easy soft option that means nobody has to do anything.

Nope. Education hasn't even started in the UK yet. Not even close.

You can build all the infrastructure you like, but if you aren't training drivers that cyclists are valid road users, you're still gonna get close passes, you're still going to get people splatted on orbital cycle paths because the driver didn't give way. You have to educate all road users. Infrastructure alone isn't enough.

Oh, and for an encore, fix the presumed liability. People are getting away with splatting cyclists, it's all victim blaming, and it's wrong. The 2 ton death boxes driven by morons are the problem. Fix the morons, fix the problem.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #46 on: 06 June, 2018, 03:14:02 pm »

Oh great, day time running lights... yet another victim blaming pile of bollocks from people tho can't get their head round the basic problem on our streets is shit drivers, not invisible cyclists.

Once again, let us look to the Dutch to see how this works. Day time running lights? You're lucky if any cyclists have any reflectors, let alone lights. And yet they have some of the best KSI numbers of any developed nation.
You see the same thing in UK cycling cities like Oxford; the cyclists are all ninja twats, yet drivers are used to them so they live surprisingly long lives.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Kim

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #47 on: 06 June, 2018, 03:36:18 pm »
You see the same thing in UK cycling cities like Oxford; the cyclists are all ninja twats, yet drivers are used to them so they live surprisingly long lives.

I reckon that's mostly because Oxford is a perpetual bus-jam[1] and the cyclists are the only thing moving fast enough to do any real damage.



[1] I'm sure this is how London's Oxford Street got its name.

arabella

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #48 on: 06 June, 2018, 03:36:55 pm »
I still can't help thinking that DRL will go the same way as high viz in that after a certain level of use then it becomes the background.
I will continue to do nothing and continue to have no expectation that anyone will notice me.
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

Kim

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Re: Daytime lights?
« Reply #49 on: 06 June, 2018, 03:45:09 pm »
Doing nothing doesn't mean not using DRL, though.

My lovely German dynamo lights used to switch on automagically at dusk (and in tunnels etc).  Brilliant.

I got another bike, so bought the equivalent newer model lights with slightly improved performance.

With those, unless I actively intervene to switch them on and off, they switch between DRL and illumination mode at dusk.  It's a bit like buying cycling-specific jackets in the sale and not wanting them in hi-vis colours.

If this is some German regulation, expect the trend to continue.



Assuming that other road users haven't seen you and don't give a fuck is always the sanest course of action.  Until you try to use a Fietspad, anyway.