Author Topic: LEL 2021 Route  (Read 41666 times)

mattc

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Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #75 on: 02 May, 2019, 10:39:38 am »

Time is almost always an issue! Are these people still riding bikes? If so, I would think they could have completed LEL2017... eventually ... given time off to fix/moderate their pain/injury.


Given a couple of months, they could have probably completed, but it's pedantic... the point is that it wasn't a case of being out of time by a few hours or a day
As you haven't given any details, I have no idea if this stands up. [Most injuries can be managed by reduced effort and/or speed.]

And in this case I assume you mean "pedantic" in the sense of "yes, you're right".
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #76 on: 02 May, 2019, 11:09:54 am »
I don't know what an organiser can actually do about DNFs other than plan a faster route. In essence, it's covering a set distance in a set time limit and those boundaries are unmoveable. London to Edinburgh and back will inevitably mean hills and without a hefty detour will include the fens.
People ride for their own reasons. Having a very high DNF rate will attract some and deter others and vice versa. 2017 was a lot windier than I'd expect. 2013 was bad enough but 2017 was much worse. It is what it is and I think the only thing you can do is to as accurately as possible, inform people of what they will and could be up against.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #77 on: 02 May, 2019, 12:17:00 pm »

Please could you offer from your wide experience examples of long brevets where the majority of riders didn't finish (in time). Where could one find/research those stats? As a relative newcomer, I can only think of the first Mille Pennines (2016) only 38 out 90? finished: btw I suspect "the majority of properly prepared riders [did] finish" MP1K 2016. I was not among that elite but, on the plus side, I did return to finish the business with a successful (if lanterne rouge) ride in 2017. I was better prepared, had a better plan (informed by the previous year's experience) and the conditions were better. The ride's finish rate was near 2/3rds, and that success rate was replicated last year (with me in the kitchen / behind the counter for 3 nights, that time).


I set out to film MP1K in 2016. I'd never made it as far as the North York Moors when filming related rides before, and planned to get a good night's sleep at the Askrigg control. That ride covers most of the 'designated' national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, and that's what I was aiming to cover.
I arrived at Askrigg to find that one of the two volunteers in the kitchen had gone to Caterrick to top up on supplies. I spent all night in the kitchen, still in my waterproof trousers and wellingtons, trying to conjure up meals from non-existent ingredients.

Meanwhile, a high proportion of the airbeds were proving to be punctured. There weren't any blankets. On a previous event there hadn't been space in the transport to take them to the control. On this occasion some informed participants had packed mattresses, sleeping bags, and even tents. So much time was spent loading and unloading bags from the hired van. I could go into further detail, but it was an amateur event, run on a relative shoestring, so the experienced participants build in work-rounds.

I think that a lot of DNFs result from a linear conception of the whole process. The all-in nature of the provision reinforces that. That's why I referred to the Accordion Effect upthread.

Quote
In physics, the accordion effect, known also as the slinky effect, concertina effect, elastic band effect, and string instability, occurs when fluctuations in the motion of a travelling body causes disruptions in the flow of elements following it. This can happen in road traffic, foot marching, bicycle and motor racing, and, in general, to processes in a pipeline. These are examples of nonlinear processes. The accordion effect generally decreases the throughput of the system in which it occurs.


This is important when riders are confronted by a queue. If you've already paid for the thing at the end of the queue, you are likelier to stick it out. Audax seems to appeal to 'non-linear' thinkers, those who 'think around' obstacles, often because they're used to critical path analysis. So that core of experienced participants are equipped to predict and surmount obstacles as they appear.

LWAB is an Audaxer with wide experience, and also a civil engineer. So if he wasn't able to finish a ride, I'd be concerned about the route. But all these project-orientated participants seem to be fascinated by the challenge of structuring the event to produce the optimum outcome. The main approaches seem to be more resource, and more modelling, and now a mandatory route. The logical end-point might be a ride on the Euraudax model, where the flow of riders is predictable.

The ACP model is explicitly about riding at your own pace, within defined limits, and implies self-sufficiency. I tend to the view that this makes the participants as much 'producers' as 'consumers' of the events. The balance between 'production' and 'consumption' is on a sliding scale, which equates to the cost  of the event. Large-scale, long distance, commercially-run events exist, the Deloitte LEJOG is a prime example. Shoestring Audaxes exist at the other end on the spectrum. LEL and PBP occupy a middle ground where insight gained from self-reliance is useful.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #78 on: 02 May, 2019, 12:41:55 pm »
Organisers do make route choices that can change the amount of climbing significantly. And food/sleep will certainly affect DNF rates, and while a lot of that's on the individual riders, what the organisers arrange will undoubtedly have a big effect too (especially if some provision is advertised and then not delivered).

As a prospective rider I'm not so worried about the absolute DNF rate (and it's somewhat unfair to compare LEL to PBP when the latter requires qualification), but I'd definitely want to feel the organiser cared about it, if that makes sense, just in terms of being "in my corner". Particularly with a mandatory route I'd not want to be following one that made the ride harder than it needs to be - while there's an inherently challenging distance and geography that means a ride like this will never be easy, it's always possible to route in a way that makes it harder.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #79 on: 02 May, 2019, 12:54:30 pm »
SNIP
examples of long brevets where the majority of riders didn't finish (in time). Where could one find/research those stats? As a relative newcomer, I can only think of the first Mille Pennines (2016) only 38 out 90? finished: btw I suspect "the majority of properly prepared riders [did] finish" MP1K 2016.
SNIP

The first Sydney-Melbourne Alpine 1200 had 50% DNF (which matched our household's finish rate), the second was slightly worse. The first Granite Anvil 1200 had a 50% DNF. I vaguely recall a couple of other 1200s around that rate. Last year's Essex 1000 had a pretty high DNF rate too.

Mille Pennine 1000 was self-selecting for capable riders to a certain extent, as was the Endless Mountains 1200, and nasty weather always increases DNF rate. No doubt HK and I could dig up a couple of other examples with a bit more thought.

I don't have a problem with very challenging brevets, provided the riders know what they are getting into. Weaker or average riders tend to avoid brevets that they are highly likely to fail. A too-high DNF rate (whatever that threshold might be) in normal weather suggests that there might be a bit much in the way of surprises along the way for riders.

Just for interest's sake, I don't believe that riding qualifiers for a 1200(+) makes a huge difference to DNF rate, provided the rider knows what is involved.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #80 on: 02 May, 2019, 12:54:57 pm »
Be assured that with LEL, we never set out to make it difficult, or more difficult. We set it out to make it gorgeous. That will mean in 2021 that at times you will have to plan for times when the going will be slow. There is a high chance you will have to walk small stretches.

The wind in 2017 was vicious. I would count it as adverse weather. Without that wind I suspect the DNF would have been  closer to the norm. A good way to find out would be to look at times up to Louth southbound and times at Loughton. The data is there if anyone wants to crunch it.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #81 on: 02 May, 2019, 02:32:46 pm »
The wind in 2017 was vicious. I would count it as adverse weather. Without that wind I suspect the DNF would have been  closer to the norm. A good way to find out would be to look at times up to Louth southbound and times at Loughton. The data is there if anyone wants to crunch it.

The data doesn't back up this assessment. LEL 2017 lost 433 people between Louth northbound and Louth southbound. It lost 104 between Louth and Loughton. If you were still in the game at the start of the Fens there was a 90% chance you'd be a finisher.

The data points to the North British hills being a bigger problem than the Dutch ones.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #82 on: 02 May, 2019, 03:06:43 pm »
You can't be held to account for the weather Danial.

In 2009 we caught the tailend of a hurricane returning through the Scottish borders. Eskdalemuir control resembled a field hospital. The glorious landscape of previous days became an unfriendly and threatening wilderness.

In 2013, PhilW has already mentioned the extremely high temperatures (and strong wind) we had to contend with returning through Cambridgeshire and Essex, like riding into a hair dryer... normally benign cycling terrain....rendered attritional by the weather conditions.

In 2017, the 15 kms pan flat stretch from Spalding to Crowland into a vicious cross/headwind was some of the most testing riding I have ever experienced....never mind the onward journey to the relative shelter of St. Ives.

The point is, that whatever the terrain, kind, hard, bucolic, brutal.....it will always be tougher if Nature decides to play capricious.
#makewattsnotwar

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #83 on: 02 May, 2019, 03:55:22 pm »
Absolutely the worst conditions I've ever seen on LEL from 2001 onwards were on Yad Moss from 11am on Wednesday, Southbound, on LEL 2017. We'd started filming at about 7am, and followed riders over to the white barn towards Langdon Beck. We then returned, stopping at Drew's van, I dropped Dave off in Alston, and drove back to Brampton to swap Heather's car for my motorbike.

So I was able to see conditions change throughout that period. It was alright early on, but there were ominous clouds to the South. I don't have any footage of the worst weather, as it was raining hard enough to reduce my speed on the motorbike to below 30mph. That one spell of weather must have seen off a lot of those who'd manage to struggle through the Southern Uplands.

Having said that, controllers were reporting that many of the field were behind schedule from Barnard Castle onwards, Northbound.

mattc

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Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #84 on: 02 May, 2019, 04:14:39 pm »
It's a good thing we do this in July for the best of British weather, hmm?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

simonp

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #85 on: 02 May, 2019, 04:24:04 pm »
I packed at Brampton northbound because I knew I wasn't heading north fast enough.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #86 on: 02 May, 2019, 04:33:07 pm »
Absolutely the worst conditions I've ever seen on LEL from 2001 onwards were on Yad Moss from 11am on Wednesday, Southbound, on LEL 2017. We'd started filming at about 7am, and followed riders over to the white barn towards Langdon Beck. We then returned, stopping at Drew's van, I dropped Dave off in Alston, and drove back to Brampton to swap Heather's car for my motorbike.

...

Having said that, controllers were reporting that many of the field were behind schedule from Barnard Castle onwards, Northbound.

Agreed (to both). We had to help a lot of riders who got into trouble in that storm. What was also worrying was the number of people who stopped to call me to tell me they were suffering. My advice was always the same, to keep moving and not stay still. There was one crash on Yad Moss, but nobody got into serious trouble with hypothermia or suchlike.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #87 on: 02 May, 2019, 04:46:36 pm »
I was in favour of leaving my motorbike at Barnard Castle and carrying on with Dave in his car. That would have limited filming, and it was entirely due to the excellence of the Barnard Castle control that I was persuaded to get back onto the bike.
I headed straight to the Louth control, and fortunately the weather improved, so I got to our overnight  in Boston in relatively good order. The coverage between Barnard Castle and St Ives is a bit sketchy for that reason, missing out Thirsk and Pocklington completely.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #88 on: 02 May, 2019, 04:47:27 pm »
The wind in 2017 was vicious. I would count it as adverse weather. Without that wind I suspect the DNF would have been  closer to the norm. A good way to find out would be to look at times up to Louth southbound and times at Loughton. The data is there if anyone wants to crunch it.

The data doesn't back up this assessment. LEL 2017 lost 433 people between Louth northbound and Louth southbound. It lost 104 between Louth and Loughton. If you were still in the game at the start of the Fens there was a 90% chance you'd be a finisher.

The data points to the North British hills being a bigger problem than the Dutch ones.

It does. The point you make and the point I made aren't mutually exclusive by any means. Losing 10% of the field on an almost pancake flat 250km section in otherwise fine conditions is down to something other than the route. And as you point out, the laggards were already long out of time which suggests the 10% that failed on the fens were from a stronger cohort of riders.

Other factors that also led to the high DNS.

- well-meaning but in hindsight poor advice about being relaxed on the first day of the ride.
- atrocious weather on Yad Moss
- considerable underestimation of the difficulty of the route
- a long leg, which combined with timing and the collapse of catering at Louth trapping and eventually terminating some rides.
- relative inexperience from some riders, more often from non-European countries.

Some of this is down to the nature of the event. It is in the UK, which means there is always the risk of foul weather. Some is down to plans that just didn't work, which will be fixed next. Some of this will melt away as folk who are new to this gain experience. Some will also be fixed by the qualifiers for guaranteed entry that will be in place, which should raise the experience levels of the cohort as a whole.

Having controls in Louth, Hessle and Malton should also make the first day and night run much more smoothly. Together I estimate I can get 900+ bed spaces in these three controls. The control in Malton is spread over two schools, effectively doubling the capacity I had at Pocklington last time.

All good learning. It's just a shame that I only get to run one experiment every four years.

wilkyboy

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Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #89 on: 02 May, 2019, 05:27:25 pm »
We set it out to make it gorgeous.

^^^ This, as best we can  :thumbsup:

We're looking for good riding, through lovely scenery, with great views.  We're not specifically setting out to ride up every hill on the route — we'll leave that to Andy Corless' events ;) — but I do expect there will be more climbing than 2017.

This will all be made very clear well before final entries open  :thumbsup:
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #90 on: 02 May, 2019, 06:07:44 pm »
I packed at Brampton northbound because I knew I wasn't heading north fast enough.

That was another factor. 100 hour riders who weren't proceeding as modelled.



Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #91 on: 02 May, 2019, 09:07:26 pm »
There was that too, of course. The 100hr riders had less fun than the 117hr group, judging by the faces I saw at the finish.

The plan next time is to limit the fast group to a single, big group.

arabella

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Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #92 on: 02 May, 2019, 09:16:25 pm »
That was another factor. 100 hour riders who weren't proceeding as modelled.
Most definitely; arrival times at <location> are skewed more towards closing time the further along the route they are, bumping into folks who've only just enough time and pulling them into the bulge.
(based on sample of 1 x LEL thobut.  I'm hoping next time around my little dears' arrangements won't require anything of me, unlike the massively complicated moving around-ness that dogged LEL week in 2017 for me)
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #93 on: 02 May, 2019, 09:42:05 pm »
Sure, there is always a risk of DNFing a long brevet but the majority of properly prepared riders should finish. Time limits are set to be somewhat challenging but quite achievable by the 'average rider'.

PBP has the longest history and largest population of riders, so statistics are easy. About 1 in 7 DNF PBP in a good year and about 2 in 7 DNF in a bad year. There have been several 1200s with DNF rates of 1 in 2 starters. I'd say that something was obviously wrong with those events, in the absence of horrendous weather. Those events were DNFing the majority of the average riders. In between those statistics is a reasonable threshold for DNF but I'm not sure where that is.
Please could you offer from your wide experience examples of long brevets where the majority of riders didn't finish (in time). Where could one find/research those stats? As a relative newcomer, I can only think of the first Mille Pennines (2016) only 38 out 90? finished: btw I suspect "the majority of properly prepared riders [did] finish" MP1K 2016. I was not among that elite but, on the plus side, I did return to finish the business with a successful (if lanterne rouge) ride in 2017. I was better prepared, had a better plan (informed by the previous year's experience) and the conditions were better. The ride's finish rate was near 2/3rds, and that success rate was replicated last year (with me in the kitchen / behind the counter for 3 nights, that time).
Long rides are hard - organisers can offer and publicise the challenge, design an attractive and safe route with accessible start/finish, maybe select a time of year when ephemeral and weather conditions are benign, describe as much or as little support as they wish, deliver that with the help of volunteers (in the main) for all riders, hope that the event captures riders' imaginations, that the entries roll in, and that the DNSs are few. After that it's up to each individual rider and their mount.

A flat one with a nearly 50% rate was the Silkroute 1200 in 2016. A desert storm just blew away the 2nd half of the field. That with a limited amount of climbing.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #94 on: 03 May, 2019, 11:00:24 am »
(Almost completely OT) The Tour of Yorkshire went through a place called Pocklington yesterday - I assume it was the Pocklington...

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #95 on: 03 May, 2019, 11:53:21 am »
(Almost completely OT) The Tour of Yorkshire went through a place called Pocklington yesterday - I assume it was the Pocklington...

Yes it was the Pocklington of LEL fame

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #96 on: 03 May, 2019, 12:32:20 pm »


The route looks good. (image from Facebook group)
Little bit more climbing and distance which should be balanced out by the extra time 125 hrs and more controls beds for the end of day 1 and return South.
the dropping of the 100 hr group for multiple groups should help the DNF rate as many DNFs unwisely opted for an early start and 17 hours less to complete the ride

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #97 on: 03 May, 2019, 12:41:40 pm »
As you may have seen elsewhere, we are going to try something quite radical for 2021. There is now a traffic-free route all the way from Dalmeny to Haymarket in central Edinburgh. We plan to use this route, then route to the castle, the Royal Mile, parliament, Arthur's Seat and then backroads to Gracemount.

I've been looking for a route into town for as long as I've been running LEL but have always been hampered by (a) the lack of a suitable city-centre control and (b) the traffic. Routing over the bridge and along the new traffic-free routes that the council has built has created a better opportunity than I dared hope for.

This is not without its risks. There is a tram line to negotiate, not to mention the festival being in full-swing. The LEL team have had some debate about how to negotiate these, and our current thinking is that one crossing of the tram lines at some traffic lights is acceptable if we mitigate this with warning signs and/or a steward at the junction. The Royal Mile may require a short walk, but we've decided that it's a small price to pay for being able to tour through town.

In any event, we will seek permission from LRM to suspend the mandatory route through town, so people can navigate however they see fit. LRM will decide on this after PBP but I have had positive noises from them.

Routing through Cambridge in 2017 has given us the confidence to do this. Cambridge was not universally popular, but it was clearly very popular. Hopefully we can make Edinburgh work too, though we are going to have to put a lot of work in to make it work.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #98 on: 03 May, 2019, 12:46:29 pm »
the dropping of the 100 hr group for multiple groups should help the DNF rate as many DNFs unwisely opted for an early start and 17 hours less to complete the ride

My current plan is to have a single group at 5am, with the main group trickled out between 6am and 2pm. The aim is to get the timing right to fill Malton, Hessle and Louth on the first night, with as many people as possible getting to Dunfermline on night 2. Both Dunfermline and Moffat are huge controls so I would like to fill them.

This early start and long first day should help people cover as much ground as possible northbound.

That's the plan, anyway.

Re: LEL2021 - route details
« Reply #99 on: 03 May, 2019, 01:17:26 pm »
A Malton control makes it impossible to bypass the Howardian Hills, which is the most logical route from there. Chris Crossland's Three, and Two, Coasts go through Malton. The North York Moors are a possibility I suppose, but Thirsk is still attractive for its shopping facilities, and rail links to London and to Manchester Airport.

Getting to Malton will likely involve a visit to Wetwang, which is always amusing.