Caffeine withdrawal

[Ben T]

Looking back I'm so glad I gave it up regardless of the occasional help it has been on an Audax. I've never had problems with sleep, either quantity or perceived quality, but since giving up caffeine the quality of my sleep has improved dramatically. Before giving up I would have said that my sleep was "ok" if not "good", but I now know it wasn't.

If in doubt, give it up for a month and then see how you feel (and sleep).

As I said, I'm lucky in that I'm not a coffee snob and so I'm more than happy drinking instant decaf (it took me a while to find a brand that didn't taste like Bovril). Most cafes/restaurants do perfectly passable decaf too and if they don't I'll just have water.

It's nice to be free from the grip of the "morning coffee" and as an ex-smoker I can definitely see the addition/dependency/ritual parallels. I've noticeably reduced my booze intake too (cutting out the unnecessary/ritualistic consumption) but that's something I can never see myself reducing to zero - but avoiding exceeding the recommended limits is a step in the right direction.

How do you know you have "better quality" sleep if you didn't have a problem with sleep before?
You don't know what's going on while you're actually asleep, by definition, so you must be basing it on benefits felt the next day - what are those?

I don't (think I) sleep badly, as in, I always fall asleep within a short time of getting in bed, I don't wake up until morning, and I feel rested in the morning.
But I guess there could be more subtle benefits such as the percentage of time spent within REM sleep, etc. But curious as to what the tangible advantage of that is and how you would appreciate it.

I do drink smoothies so I can replace the morning (or any given) coffee with one of those, there's still a ritual there in blending it.

[Greenbank]

How do you know you have "better quality" sleep if you didn't have a problem with sleep before?
You don't know what's going on while you're actually asleep, by definition, so you must be basing it on benefits felt the next day - what are those?

Exactly that, by "quality of sleep" I mean how I feel the next day. I'm not measuring my actual sleep (my Garmin attempts to do that but I don't think there's any value in looking at that data, and I don't have the corresponding data from before I gave up anyway).

Since giving up caffeine, I feel a lot better (more rested, brighter, more energy) when I wake up than I did before despite getting the same quantity of sleep as before.

I don't (think I) sleep badly, as in, I always fall asleep within a short time of getting in bed, I don't wake up until morning, and I feel rested in the morning.

And that's how I felt before I gave up. I guess you'll only know whether giving up caffeine could make you feel even better unless you try it.

[T42]

At home I had been in the habit of drinking 2 or 3 double espressos per day as well as ~2 litres of "breakfast" tea.  Then about a month ago I jacked in coffee completely other than on twice-weekly rides, and substituted green tea. No withdrawal symptoms.  Then a week ago some US friends of Mrs T were here so I brewed them up a pot at 60 gm/litre, i.e. standard barista conc. but a bit weak by my usual standards, and kept them company.  Hands trembled a bit for the rest of the day, and next day I had a splitting headache.

That's the only time I've had withdrawal symptoms.

Can't say I'm sleeping any better: I went to the loo at 2:30 am this morning and spent the next hour working out today's fettles in my head. Feel fine today, though.

[citoyen]

How do you know you have "better quality" sleep if you didn't have a problem with sleep before?

A lot of fitness tracker devices can measure your quality of sleep and tell you how much time you spent in deep sleep, how much time in REM sleep etc - they're not 100% accurate but they give a fairly good idea.

However, you don't need to know those numbers to know whether or not you've had a good night's sleep - it should be readily obvious when you wake up in the morning. If you have poor quality sleep, you will know about it. If you have mostly good quality sleep, you don't need to worry about it.

It sounds to me like you're in the latter category - lucky you!

[Thing2]

.  The tea is more slow release than the coffee, which can have a peak and crash (like a Mars bar has with sugar),

Is it really, ah that's interesting. I've read that it's actually got more caffeine in it than coffee, but you don't (ever) absorb it all so in actual fact you get less in total. But the speed of release is an interesting aspect.

I didn't know that, but it does explain why I can drink 2 cups of tea before starting to get jittery whereas a cup of coffee will stick me to the ceiling.
I only do tea before 9am these days (unless I'm cycling inappropriate distances).

[Dtcman]

I tried this before one of the PBPs. I religiously cut out all caffeine for about a month before (it was a struggle!). Come PBP I found it made bugger all difference so I've never bothered since.     

[rogerzilla]

I did it for my first Dunwich Dynamo and certainly felt the benefits after my first coffee for 3 weeks, but I wouldn't do it again.  The withdrawal symptoms are long lasting (2-3 weeks of headaches that painkillers won't quite shift, nausea, dry mouth and lethargy)  and you only get a boost of a couple of hours when you fall off the wagon.

Worse, once you've had that first cup, you're addicted again and it will take another 2-3 weeks' withdrawal.  It's a purely physical addiction; I don't even want tea or coffee in the heat of summer but, if I forget, I'm reminded 12 hoyrs later by my pounding head.

Instead, I'd reduce down to two cups of tea a day (morning and night) so you're on a very low dose.  Then coffee gives a bit of a lift (it contains mucb more caffeine than tea) but you don't have to go cold turkey.

[toontra]

Worse, once you've had that first cup, you're addicted again and it will take another 2-3 weeks' withdrawal.

That certainly isn't my experience.  Perhaps a mild headache later in the day that lasts a couple of hours but nothing worse, and definitely not addicted again.

[Ben T]

I did it for my first Dunwich Dynamo and certainly felt the benefits after my first coffee for 3 weeks, but I wouldn't do it again.  The withdrawal symptoms are long lasting (2-3 weeks of headaches that painkillers won't quite shift, nausea, dry mouth and lethargy)  and you only get a boost of a couple of hours when you fall off the wagon.

Worse, once you've had that first cup, you're addicted again and it will take another 2-3 weeks' withdrawal.  It's a purely physical addiction; I don't even want tea or coffee in the heat of summer but, if I forget, I'm reminded 12 hoyrs later by my pounding head.

Instead, I'd reduce down to two cups of tea a day (morning and night) so you're on a very low dose.  Then coffee gives a bit of a lift (it contains mucb more caffeine than tea) but you don't have to go cold turkey.

I'm planning to try and see if I can eradicate the headaches by doing it very gradually.

[BobScarle]

This is interesting, especially the talk about headaches. I am one that drinks quite a lot of tea and coffee during a normal working day. Out on a ride yesterday and about 75 miles in, I am starting to get a headache. This happens quite a lot. I had a cup of tea with breakfast and another at lunch. During that time I would have had 4, 5 maybe 6 cups. Now in my world 2 + 2 very often equals 5 but it is a thought.

[ian_oli]

This is interesting, especially the talk about headaches. I am one that drinks quite a lot of tea and coffee during a normal working day. Out on a ride yesterday and about 75 miles in, I am starting to get a headache. This happens quite a lot. I had a cup of tea with breakfast and another at lunch. During that time I would have had 4, 5 maybe 6 cups. Now in my world 2 + 2 very often equals 5 but it is a thought.

Dehydration could be a likely cause of your headache?

[Ivan]

My main source of headaches on longer rides was pressure from wearing a cap under the helmet - got through quite a lot of painkillers before I figured this one out.

[Manotea]

This is interesting, especially the talk about headaches. I am one that drinks quite a lot of tea and coffee during a normal working day. Out on a ride yesterday and about 75 miles in, I am starting to get a headache. This happens quite a lot. I had a cup of tea with breakfast and another at lunch. During that time I would have had 4, 5 maybe 6 cups. Now in my world 2 + 2 very often equals 5 but it is a thought.

Dehydration could be a likely cause of your headache?

I sweat like mad during exercise, and generally regard a headache as a sign of dehydration and in warm weather especially, of impending heatstroke, i.e., time to drink and ease off.

[Peat]

My main source of headaches on longer rides was pressure from wearing a cap under the helmet - got through quite a lot of painkillers before I figured this one out.

Traditional cloth caps would dig into my head something cronic aswell. I now use Primal caps, they have a stretchy elastic headband. Still leaves a bit of a mark on my forehead, but is far more comfortable.

[mattc]

My main source of headaches on longer rides was pressure from wearing a cap under the helmet - got through quite a lot of painkillers before I figured this one out.

Surely you mean
...pressure from wearing a helmet over my cap.
?

[Ivan]

Sorry, you are probably right. Need more coffee.

[BobScarle]

I agree, dehydration is the most likely reason and I have always thought it to be the case. It was just all of the talk about headaches and caffeine withdrawal symptoms that made me think. Could there be a link? Probably not but it may be worthwhile considering and maybe drink less in the run up to a long ride.

[Ben T]

I'm sceptical that it's just dehydration as when I get it I drink just as much liquid just without coffee. Coffee is apparently a diuretic which I'm told actually makes you more dehydrated than without drinking anything, but not sure why.

[Greenbank]

Coffee is apparently a diuretic which I'm told actually makes you more dehydrated than without drinking anything, but not sure why.

A diuretic means it promotes urine production, so water is taken away from the use of your body and sits (unavailable) in your bladder, i.e. you become more dehydrated.

Just because you haven't wee'd it out yet doesn't mean it's still available to your body.

[hellymedic]

Apparently caffeine is not diuretic if you're dehydrated.
Sports drinks contained caffeine but I think that stopped.

I certainly thought that drinking a big slug of caffeine at the end of a long ride was a bad idea, so stopped buying sports drinks.

[vorsprung]

Without trying to analyze why my experiences are

1) starting from a base of 2-3 coffees a day + tea I gave up by suddenly stopping.  I had a blinding headache for 2 days (i usually don't get headaches) but after that sleep seemed a bit better and so did my level of concentration.  This was prior to doing a long event.
Not sure how much it helped with getting the sleepies or the extra effect of the caffeine tablets on that event

2) starting from a base of 3-4 coffees a day + tea I tapered my intake over a week by reducing to 1 coffee a day then zero + tea then no tea.  I felt a bit dubious on the no tea days.  As above sleep and concentration were improved.  On the long event when I had an espresso it made me pick up instantly.  But this only worked the once, coffee after that just had the normal effect

3) starting from a base of 3-4 coffees a day + tea I tapered and then gave up all caffeine- tea, coffee, chocolate for Lent.  Lent is 40 days.  The first week I felt I had better concentration and sleep as above.  However, after week 2 I felt odd- eventually, I decided this feeling was a very mild depression.  By the end of the 40 day period the depression thing had worn off a bit but no caffeine for Lent is more difficult than no alcohol or anything else I've tried.

To pick up Ben T's point that he sleeps just fine anyway even when drinking coffee- so do I.  But I can sleep even better with no coffee

For the BCM this weekend I have cut back on coffee, hopefully to zero tomorrow but continue with tea

The only "analysis" / opinion I'd add to this is that caffeine - whether you give it up before an event or not - is a temporary stimulant and is not a substitute for sleep.  If you use it you will pay.  You stay awake a bit longer but that will make you more exhausted in the long run.  Using caffeine as a booster on short races is a great idea.  On a 600km audax less so

[Ben T]

The only "analysis" / opinion I'd add to this is that caffeine - whether you give it up before an event or not - is a temporary stimulant and is not a substitute for sleep.  If you use it you will pay.  You stay awake a bit longer but that will make you more exhausted in the long run.  Using caffeine as a booster on short races is a great idea.  On a 600km audax less so

It's not a substitute for sleep, but my main aim is to maximize its effectiveness where you aren't planning to sleep anyway.
For instance, a 1000 or 1200 where your plan is to ride through the first night, but then sleep on the other nights.
Or a 400 where there might not be anywhere convenient to sleep and it's not worth/not got time for getting a travelodge, and so your strategy is to ride it without sleep anyway.

[vorsprung]

The only "analysis" / opinion I'd add to this is that caffeine - whether you give it up before an event or not - is a temporary stimulant and is not a substitute for sleep.  If you use it you will pay.  You stay awake a bit longer but that will make you more exhausted in the long run.  Using caffeine as a booster on short races is a great idea.  On a 600km audax less so

It's not a substitute for sleep, but my main aim is to maximize its effectiveness where you aren't planning to sleep anyway.
For instance, a 1000 or 1200 where your plan is to ride through the first night, but then sleep on the other nights.
Or a 400 where there might not be anywhere convenient to sleep and it's not worth/not got time for getting a travelodge, and so your strategy is to ride it without sleep anyway.

What I tend to do is assume that the effect of the caffeine will last 2 hours or so.  So if it's
1 AM and you aren't getting to the sleep stop until 3 AM then it might be a good idea.

To what extent the extra exertion of carrying on, artificially awake, will have on your subsequent sleep and therefore your riding the next day it's hard to say.  I tend to find if you have 1.5 hours sleep then it resets everything and I feel less mentally frazzled

Riding through the night without sleeping and using caffeine to achieve this will have the same effect as not using caffeine.   Your performance will be degraded the next day.  Unless you are one of those unusual people that can survive on no sleep.

I usually do 400km events on no sleep.  On LEL I planned it so I rode through the first night and didn't stop for over 24h.  I had a bad patch during the last bit of riding crossing Yad Moss.  My legs were still good but my head wasn't

[Greenbank]

To pick up Ben T's point that he sleeps just fine anyway even when drinking coffee- so do I.  But I can sleep even better with no coffee

Exactly. To me it's roughly equivalent to"I used to run just fine when I smoked. But I now run a lot better now that I haven't smoked for ages." although the timescales are a lot more stretched out for smoking.

(Not wishing to sidetrack this to smoking, there are plenty of other threads for that. This is about caffeine.)

The point is you'll never know what your baseline of "fine" really is until you try giving up, you may well end up resetting your expectation of "fine".

[Ben T]

To pick up Ben T's point that he sleeps just fine anyway even when drinking coffee- so do I.  But I can sleep even better with no coffee

Exactly. To me it's roughly equivalent to"I used to run just fine when I smoked. But I now run a lot better now that I haven't smoked for ages." although the timescales are a lot more stretched out for smoking.

(Not wishing to sidetrack this to smoking, there are plenty of other threads for that. This is about caffeine.)

The point is you'll never know what your baseline of "fine" really is until you try giving up, you may well end up resetting your expectation of "fine".

It's easy to see how you can run 'better', i.e. faster, but slightly harder to imagine how you can sleep better if you already remain asleep for as much time as you intended to.
Not saying it isn't possible, but I would have to see it to believe it, I guess I will have to evaluate it emprically.

What I tend to do is assume that the effect of the caffeine will last 2 hours or so.  So if it's
1 AM and you aren't getting to the sleep stop until 3 AM then it might be a good idea.

To what extent the extra exertion of carrying on, artificially awake, will have on your subsequent sleep and therefore your riding the next day it's hard to say.  I tend to find if you have 1.5 hours sleep then it resets everything and I feel less mentally frazzled

Riding through the night without sleeping and using caffeine to achieve this will have the same effect as not using caffeine.   Your performance will be degraded the next day.  Unless you are one of those unusual people that can survive on no sleep.

I usually do 400km events on no sleep.  On LEL I planned it so I rode through the first night and didn't stop for over 24h.  I had a bad patch during the last bit of riding crossing Yad Moss.  My legs were still good but my head wasn't

It may be, but will the degradation be compensated for by the time you waste the previous night leaning on a gate? (or other location where you decide that due to safety you have to stop, but aren't anywhere that it is possible to get actual proper sleep)