2018 pre qualifier

[Ajax Bay]

About 43h to get to Brest IIRC in 2011.
This link has some links to definitive info:
    https://www.bikeforums.net/long-distance-competition-ultracycling-randonneuring-endurance-cycling/996491-2015-pbp-control-times.html
Obviously it'll all be slightly different in 2019 with the different route and distance because of the different start location.
2015 90 hour start:-
For an 18:00 start Sunday, Brest (618km) control closed Tuesday 13:19. That's 43h19m.

For 90 time limit, drawing on your 2015 data and adjusting for distance ratio:
609km to Brest in 43.5 hours is exactly 14kph.
604km back in 46.5 hours is 13kph.
From the linked 2007 docs in the thread you linked to, the 84 hour starts had 37.5 hours to get to Brest, whereas the 80 hour merchants had 36.5 hours (starting at 8pm).

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It isn't that simple. The minimum average varies quite a bit more on the return leg and ACP individually adjusts control times from their formulas anyway.
https://rusa.org/octime_rm.html

[Ajax Bay]

It isn't that simple. The minimum average varies quite a bit more on the return leg and ACP individually adjusts control times from their formulas anyway.
https://rusa.org/octime_rm.html

Thank you for that additional insight.
Can't get the calculator in your RUSA link to work
"Form Entry Error - the control points should be specified in ascending order"??
But for 90 hour PBP it gives this:
distance   min   max
0 - 200   15   30
200-400   15   28
400-600   15   24
600-1000   11.428   23
1000-1300   13.333   20
This is not what they used in 2015 for 90 hour starts (based on @Greenbank's time of 43:20 to Brest from his brevet): clearly,as you say: "ACP individually adjusts control times from their formulas anyway".
If they follow the same protocol as in 2015 my figures of 14kph going west will be very close and 13kph coming back will be close enough (and gets in at 89:55 - for lanterne rouge award, or whatever).
I'll be using those for my spreadsheet.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Those average speeds will give you incorrect intermediate control times between Paris and Brest and (to a greater extent) between Brest and Paris.

[Phil W]

Ajax Bay

Just looked at my PBP 15 brevet.

For the 16/8 17:15 start the close time at Brest was 18/8 12:38, Brest marked as 614km.

So 43 hours 23 min time limit to Brest for the 90hr start.

[Greenbank]

Control times and minimum average speeds are a whole world of exceptions, oddities and nonsense.

Consider a hypothetical BRM 200 (8am start) that was over distance (they can be up to 5% overdistance) at 209km. Imagine it had a control at 203km (unlikely but it could have for some reason). What time does that control close?

(click to show/hide)

A naive calculation of 203km/15kph would mean it closes a few minutes after the final control (at 209km) closes, since a BRM 200 is defined as taking 13h30m and you don't get any extra time for it being over distance.

Or, if the same ride had a control at 180km (29km from the end). What time would it close?

(click to show/hide)

The naive calculation of 180km/15kph = 12h would then give riders just 1h30m from that control closure time to cover the 29km to the end, way more than the usual 15kph.

These are examples of why things are massaged slightly in the final timings.

[Ajax Bay]

Thank you for confirming the 43:23 closing time for Brest (614km) in 2015. I note that that's 14.15kph (and my exact 14kph estimate reflects that our 2019 version is 12km less overall).

Those average speeds will give you incorrect intermediate control times between Paris and Brest and (to a greater extent) between Brest and Paris.

I'm sure you're 'correct' if 'incorrect' means more than 20 minutes 'wrong'. When you say 'incorrect' I hear an echo of @QuixoticGeek's post about UTC not being the same as GMT because of their different treatment of leap seconds.
On the way back the protocol suggested in the 2007 link in the RUSA thread seems designed to make the control close timings back to Mortagne a tad more 'relaxed' recognising that riders may bump against the closing times yet be able to raise their tempo for the final 100km. Entirely sensible.
I'll just put my (90 hour 1800 start) closing times up here (14kph out, 13kph back) so I, you (et al) can see how incorrect I was, in  August.
Rambouillet   18:00   
Mortagne-au-Perche    02:21   MON
Villaines-la-Juhel    09:25   MON
Fougères    15:45   MON
Tinténiac    19:38   MON
      
Loudéac    01:41   TUE
Carhaix-Plouguer    07:07   TUE
      
Brest   13:28   TUE
Carhaix-Plouguer   19:51 TUE
Loudéac   02:29   WED
Tinténiac   09:06   WED
Fougères   13:16   WED
      
Villaines-la-Juhel   20:06   WED
Mortagne-au-Perche   02:34   THU
Dreux   08:32   THU
Rambouillet   11:55   THU

"Consider a hypothetical BRM 200 (8am start) that was over distance"
Aware of the 'overdistance' massaging that is required.
But the PBP massaging is not really to do with that.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I won't have to wait until August as PBP will provide the opening and closing times of controls well before the start. FFS, the start of PBP is still over 6 months away.

Your 'even average speeds' will give unconservative closing times. Intermediate controls are likely to close sooner than your predictions. It is generally considered a bad thing to reach a control after it has closed but YMMV

[simonp]

1000km control was 64h in the 80h group in 2015. Nearly caught me out.

[Ivo]

The ACP can be a bit lenient if you're 'out of time' at an intermediate control. In 2015 I was 15 minutes out of time in Dreux and finished with 39 minutes in hand. Neither in Dreux nor in Paris the controllers commented this.

[simonp]

The ACP can be a bit lenient if you're 'out of time' at an intermediate control. In 2015 I was 15 minutes out of time in Dreux and finished with 39 minutes in hand. Neither in Dreux nor in Paris the controllers commented this.

Yeah - I had thought I'd have more time for sleep at Fougeres but when I got there around 1am I checked the control times and Villaines was around 8am. So I slept for an hour and then pushed on. I wasn't too pushed for time, I stopped at two crepe stalls and a cafe that was open all night in Ambrieres-les-Vallees. I have visited that cafe in 07, 11 and 15 now. It was during the day in 07, I was riding with some Danish group who were very well organised and stopped there for coffee and coke. Again in 11, the owner seemed quite grumpy that day, we stopped for coffee - I think he was trying to set up for the later serving. On the 80h ride, I expected nothing - but it was ablaze with light at 4am. The owner was not grumpy but perhaps this explains him being grumpy in 2011. It was quite something, they had food for cyclists and mattresses set up for a sleep, and would not accept a tip.

One of the big differences between 80h and 90h (if near the limits) is you see a different side of the event at different times - I had never seen Loudeac in daylight until 2015. Or the hills west of there, which were a surprise despite having been there twice before!

In the end I had enough time for some sleep in the morning at Villaines, and pushed on knowing that 16+h to Paris should be easy. However I had a sore throat as I had caught the cold that was going round. I finished with >3h in hand so it was good and much more time in hand than I'd ever had on a 90h start.

[Zed43]

The ACP can be a bit lenient if you're 'out of time' at an intermediate control.

"the ACP" as a whole, or specifically the organisation of PBP? Just curious if the Norwegians turn out to be more Catholic than the pope so to speak

"a bit lenient" is rather vague and probably depends on the controller, so I'll aim to be well within the intermediate closing times. But if you are (really) out of time, are you allowed to continue, or do they take in your brevet card and send you back packing?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It depends. Some folk have had their cards pulled, others have had no notice taken at all of them being out of time, some have argued their case and been allowed to continue.


Elsewhere in the world, folk have had their cards pulled for being five minutes outside time at an intermediate control.

[Phil W]

The ACP can be a bit lenient if you're 'out of time' at an intermediate control. In 2015 I was 15 minutes out of time in Dreux and finished with 39 minutes in hand. Neither in Dreux nor in Paris the controllers commented this.

Yeah - I had thought I'd have more time for sleep at Fougeres but when I got there around 1am I checked the control times and Villaines was around 8am. So I slept for an hour and then pushed on. I wasn't too pushed for time, I stopped at two crepe stalls and a cafe that was open all night in Ambrieres-les-Vallees. I have visited that cafe in 07, 11 and 15 now. It was during the day in 07, I was riding with some Danish group who were very well organised and stopped there for coffee and coke. Again in 11, the owner seemed quite grumpy that day, we stopped for coffee - I think he was trying to set up for the later serving. On the 80h ride, I expected nothing - but it was ablaze with light at 4am. The owner was not grumpy but perhaps this explains him being grumpy in 2011. It was quite something, they had food for cyclists and mattresses set up for a sleep, and would not accept a tip.

One of the big differences between 80h and 90h (if near the limits) is you see a different side of the event at different times - I had never seen Loudeac in daylight until 2015. Or the hills west of there, which were a surprise despite having been there twice before!

In the end I had enough time for some sleep in the morning at Villaines, and pushed on knowing that 16+h to Paris should be easy. However I had a sore throat as I had caught the cold that was going round. I finished with >3h in hand so it was good and much more time in hand than I'd ever had on a 90h start.

Indeed, you get to see Loudeac in the daylight both ways on the 90h.

[Ajax Bay]

1000km control was 64h in the 80h group in 2015. Nearly caught me out.

A rough check of the 80 hour 2015 control closing time data (shared here) suggests 17kph out to Brest (36.5 hours), 13.8kph for the 381km back to Villaines (64 hours) and 13.8kph to the finish - again a consistent speed required all the way back.

[Ivo]

The ACP can be a bit lenient if you're 'out of time' at an intermediate control.

"the ACP" as a whole, or specifically the organisation of PBP? Just curious if the Norwegians turn out to be more Catholic than the pope so to speak

"a bit lenient" is rather vague and probably depends on the controller, so I'll aim to be well within the intermediate closing times. But if you are (really) out of time, are you allowed to continue, or do they take in your brevet card and send you back packing?

The Prussian interpretation of the BRM rulebook is a lot stricter as the original French one.