Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: rob on 16 September, 2019, 03:00:34 pm

Title: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: rob on 16 September, 2019, 03:00:34 pm: For next years plans - some long ultra style races and longer audax I'm going to get a new steed. It will need gears and this is a bit of a leap for me.

The races I am entering, starting with RaTN will be pretty much all on road. Whilst I'm drawn to the off-the-peg gravel style bikes I am a roadie at heart and have done most of my miles in the last few years on an ally Dolan FXE. I'm wondering if wide ratios, disk brakes and massive tyres are a bit of overkill.

I'm quite drawn to the Dolan Dual as it will work as a club ride bike, commuter and audaxer but could also be used for ultra races with my usual bags attached. They do also have a gravel style carbon bike but I'm a little worried about maintaining and fixing a load of kit that will be very new to me. A Dual built up with Ultegra comes in £4-500 cheaper than the gravel build which is budget I could use on some hand built wheels from my usual provider.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Brucey on 16 September, 2019, 04:06:22 pm: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?

NEED.... no of course not. But it may bring advantages of some kind...? Swings and roundabouts of course...

cheers
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 16 September, 2019, 04:11:48 pm: I mean it depends on how road-y you are. My best bike ( https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=111306.0 ) runs 31mm tyres and is made of 853 steel, is 34-50 with 11-32, and I don't have problems keeping up with other road riders on social rides and performs well for touring and audaxing. Fiona Kolbinger won the Transcontinental on 28mm tyres, riding a stock Canyon Endurace which is just a road bike when all is said and done.

I do think discs have a lot of added value if the likelihood is you will be riding in rain, especially if you have descents (which the Audax grimpeur rides certainly often do - the Kent Invicta Grimpeur had a really fearsome one this year on a pretty ropey road surface) and are carrying cargo, but they're certainly not a critical need as you can get good caliper-canti pads these days. I really do recommend them though, hydraulics particularly are very easy going on the hands.

It's end of season sale time quite soon so holding your fire might bear some good results.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: zigzag on 16 September, 2019, 04:24:59 pm: if most of the planned riding distance is on the road, then a gravel bike will feel (and be) slower there. of course a road bike is no fun on the gravel/cobbles; i rode the tcr no5 on 25mm tyres, around 80km on gravel (one puncture on gravel). it sucked, but it was only 2% of the whole distance.
i rode my gravel bike with 30mm road tyres on several long audaxes and other paved rides - it was fine, but a proper road bike is faster and more fun on the road.
it has to be noted that there is a wide variety of gravel bikes, from fast(ish) racing types to mtb's with drop bars.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: vorsprung on 16 September, 2019, 04:25:03 pm: I do think that my Genesis Datum gravel bike is a super long-distance ride

It is fast, comfortable and all that good stuff

Conceptually, it is a road "Racing" bike with somewhat relaxed angles and clearance for big tyres. It will do 38mm+guards (just).

I can do long-distance rides on any bike but this is a good one for this, mainly due to the big tyres

One line comparison with a Specialized Roubaix: both are comfortable in their own way but the Genesis is slightly faster, partly because it is stiffer. The Roubaix is better (suprisingly) on absolutely terrible road surfaces
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: vorsprung on 16 September, 2019, 04:27:27 pm: Quote from: bludger on 16 September, 2019, 04:11:48 pm
It's end of season sale time quite soon so holding your fire might bear some good results.

..or not if the exchange rate falls down a hole
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 16 September, 2019, 04:29:57 pm: Depends - the shops might be desperate to clear out their stock paid for with hedged cash, before consumers reprioritise towards goods like tins of spam and barbed wire and DIY distillery kits...
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: mattc on 16 September, 2019, 08:26:34 pm: Has not the OP ridden PBP and LEL in the past?

What was wrong with the bikes he used on those long road events?*

Puzzled, of Didcot

*Well ok ... apart from not having a freewheel ...
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: rob on 16 September, 2019, 09:27:00 pm: Quote from: mattc on 16 September, 2019, 08:26:34 pm
Has not the OP ridden PBP and LEL in the past?

What was wrong with the bikes he used on those long road events?*

Puzzled, of Didcot

*Well ok ... apart from not having a freewheel ...

And there’s the rub. I’m investing in a geared bike so I can do more adventurous riding, but not sure I need to go full-on gravel as in disk brakes and 35mm tyres. I have had my fair share of comfort issues of late but that may just be age.

I suspect I can solve with a less extreme position and some tri bars.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 16 September, 2019, 09:31:44 pm: 35mm is definitely on the shallow end of gravel - really that's more cyclocross. From what I can see 40mm or wider is what clearance seems to be for the off roady bikes these days. For really gnarly gravel it gets up to the 50s e.g. https://www.brothercycles.com/shop/frames/big-bro/ and https://www.brothercycles.com/shop/frames/mehteh/
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Chris S on 16 September, 2019, 09:44:06 pm: Leaving aside the whole CAADX recall that Cannondale are currently undertaking, my fastest bike is my 2016 CAADX. I'm noticeably faster, for a lower heart-rate than any of my other bikes, including its much more expensive cousin, a Carbon Synapse.

It's some kind of magic. I don't know how it works - I'm riding it on the road, with its original 35mm Sammy Slick cross tyres, feeling like I'm doing a "normal" not-quite-threshold effort, and my speed is like 38kph; it just wants me to go faster.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: wajcgac on 16 September, 2019, 10:26:41 pm: Quote from: rob on 16 September, 2019, 09:27:00 pm
Quote from: mattc on 16 September, 2019, 08:26:34 pm
Has not the OP ridden PBP and LEL in the past?

What was wrong with the bikes he used on those long road events?*

Puzzled, of Didcot

*Well ok ... apart from not having a freewheel ...

And there’s the rub. I’m investing in a geared bike so I can do more adventurous riding, but not sure I need to go full-on gravel as in disk brakes and 35mm tyres. I have had my fair share of comfort issues of late but that may just be age.

I suspect I can solve with a less extreme position and some tri bars.

Something like the Cannondale Synapse that Chris mentions in the previous post is more road orientated than a 'gravel bike'. It also has slightly relaxed geometry compared to a full on road bike and can take 32mm tyres without guards. Hydraulic discs as well so ticks all the boxes.

to quote a bit of Cannondale blurb

'Performance focused, but slightly more upright for comfort. Perfect for long days in the saddle and confident handling on all road surfaces'.

2019 models are on discount at the moment - here's one that fits in with your budget I think (you may find it cheaper elsewhere)

https://www.evanscycles.com/cannondale-synapse-carbon-disc-105-2019-road-bike-EV338184
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Phil W on 16 September, 2019, 10:40:19 pm: Back in the 70s / 80s I used to have a tracker bike I'd built from a frame my dad got from the dump. So cowhorns, single speed, knobbly tyres. The tyres I ran were 1 3/8" so 34.5mm by my calcs. We used to do jumps down the woods, ride through streams, and take them local places like Jacobs Ladder and Mam Tor near Edale. So don't let anyone tell you 35mm isn't more than fine for that kind of use. Besides gravel bikes are for the piss easy side of off road else you'd really want a mtn bike for rock gardens, gnarly stuff etc.

Disc brakes will mean you'll be able to have the better clearancess off road so things don't get trapped like they might with rim brakes.

I have a Van Nich Amazon. Clearances for 37mm according to specs though I reckon more. I run 32mm tubeless with guards for Audax. Guards off and 35mm tubeless (off road tyres) for winter fun. Not a gravel bike and in fact the model predates the term gravel bike. But pretty much any touring or road bike with clearance for wider tyres will do just as well on the type of terrain gravel bikes are pitched at.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 16 September, 2019, 10:53:44 pm: Oh for sure 35mm can do the 'gravel riding' you get in the UK, it's just that is the lower end of the gravel sliding scale in the global context, particularly in North America where gravel roads are a lot more like actual gravel than just 'hard pack'. My friend just did the Central Ontario Loop Trail (COLT) and this is about as good as it gets:

(https://bikepacking.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/COLT-Victoria-Rail-Trail-2-1200x800.jpg)

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58f6a5976b8f5b700280c6a7/1560137687334-LCG70LU2GOA9KX42YEFP/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kLkXF2pIyv_F2eUT9F60jBl7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z4YTzHvnKhyp6Da-NYroOW3ZGjoBKy3azqku80C789l0iyqMbMesKd95J-X4EagrgU9L3Sa3U8cogeb0tjXbfawd0urKshkc5MgdBeJmALQKw/Picture2.jpg)

I am assured that this stuff is the real deal and you want to be 40mm at the minimum, ideally much wider, especially with cargo.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Phil W on 16 September, 2019, 11:08:16 pm: Ah but that's less like gravel and more like sand in the photo. A fat bike would be better suited to that, just to stop you sinking in to the surface. I've ridden 35mm on gravel in Alaska, Andes, Himalayas. Admittedly touring not racing but it has been fine. Besides Rob is looking for the odd bit of gravel in mainly long road races. You want a bike better suited of 99% of the terrain it'll be on. The bike in your photo would be as slow as molasses.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 September, 2019, 07:52:19 am: The COLT photos look like gravel to me, not sand. They also look very like the Fosse Way, only without hills – probably rather more remote though; will your plans include carrying 'bikepacking' luggage?
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: PeterM on 17 September, 2019, 11:24:40 pm: Quote from: rob on 16 September, 2019, 03:00:34 pm
Whilst I'm drawn to the off-the-peg gravel style bikes I am a roadie at heart and have done most of my miles in the last few years on an ally Dolan FXE. I'm wondering if wide ratios, disk brakes and massive tyres are a bit of overkill.

The Mason Bokeh is highly adaptable and a very capable long-distance machine that has been raced in plenty of ultra events. It'll take 700c tyres up to 40 section with mudguards and even fatter 650B tyres. I'm very fond of mine.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Paul H on 18 September, 2019, 02:01:12 pm: Buy a cheap frame that takes discs and wide tyres, build it up with budget components or those you know you'll re-use and beg, borrow, buy as many different tyre types/sizes as you can. IMO, as long as you know it's a suitable geometry and size, the tyre choice above all else will be the thing that decides what works for you. I can tell you what I'm faster and more comfortable on, but there's nothing to suggest that would work for you and even if there was it'd have to be in the context of comparable rides.
Alpkit have the alu Sonder Camino frameset on offer for £200, might be a suitable test bed. better than spending £££'s on something that's going to have a large element of chance. You can always upgrade later.
https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/bikes/sonder-camino-al-frame-and-fork-V2
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: mattc on 18 September, 2019, 07:01:53 pm: ... or for an even better value experiment, buy a used Cross bike with Cantis (their value has plummeted in this age of disk brakes).

Available in all 3 major frameset materials.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: IanN on 18 September, 2019, 07:12:00 pm: True. I periodically think I want a bike with fatter tyres and then realise I could put 35mm (or more) on my much abused cross check. It's got V-brakes so plenty of stoppage.

A 2020 project I think :thumbsup:

I suggest looking at the archives of the rough stuff fellowship. 1950s touring bikes. On glaciers and up cliffs. With capes and thermos flasks. If they didn't need a fat bike...
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Paul H on 18 September, 2019, 07:47:39 pm: Quote from: IanN on 18 September, 2019, 07:12:00 pm
I suggest looking at the archives of the rough stuff fellowship. 1950s touring bikes. On glaciers and up cliffs. With capes and thermos flasks. If they didn't need a fat bike...
I doubt a week goes by without reading this answer on one forum or another, though I'm never sure what question it's addressing.
Rough Stuff Fellowship riders in the 1950's rode the most suitable bikes available, much like the RSF riders do today, but generally today's riders are not using the same bikes, so why would anyone else? Maybe it's an answer to the question if it's possible, in which case, having looked at the photos, the answer seems to be - Not without a lot of walking.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: IanN on 18 September, 2019, 09:32:48 pm: Tongue in cheek emoji required, evidently.
Either that or make woollen riding britches and ordinaries compulsory.
One or the other. ;D
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 18 September, 2019, 09:42:07 pm: I actually own a copy of the rough stuff book. One of my favourite photos is this one:

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/dc4318b593e6b5704977fd582c67b0aedbc2cfad/16_0_1449_2174/master/1449.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=1e05d72bb80f3a4792099d4ca78f5b1d)

If the old timers could have had 40mm or wider tyres I think they'd have said yes!
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: IanN on 18 September, 2019, 09:54:00 pm: Isn't there a note to the effect that they 'straightened it' and carried on?
It does play to the 'they were made of sterner stuff' thing, which may or may not have been true.
As has been said they didn't have a choice - in kit - or budget probably
If they'd had MTBs they would have cycled more of their routes, certainly :)
Might be getting a bit OT here
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Paul H on 18 September, 2019, 09:55:56 pm: Quote from: IanN on 18 September, 2019, 09:32:48 pm
Tongue in cheek emoji required, evidently.
Either that or make woollen riding britches and ordinaries compulsory.
One or the other. ;D
Usual rule is if you need to tell someone it's a joke - it isn't funny enough.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Brucey on 18 September, 2019, 10:09:32 pm: the 'old timers' could have used 26 x 1-1/2" tyres (584mm bead seat diameter) quite easily if they had wanted to. If 584mm bead seat diameter sounds familiar, it should do, it is better known today as the 650B size. This rim/tyre size was invented in the UK (the French pinched it and gave it a different name) and has been available here for over 110 years.
However for most of that time it has been (probably rightly) reserved for butcher's bikes, post office bikes, and bikes of that ilk.

If you wanted a knobbly tyre in the 1970s, you would probably have chosen 26 x 1-3/8" size and used cycle speedway tyres on it.

Yer rider in the picture looks to have been using 27 x 1-1/4" (weinmann/birmalux?) rims, with Michelin 'speed' tyres?. IIRC 'speed' tyres came up a bit fatter than a lot of other nominally 1-1/4" tyres. Single wall rims of the time were not as strong or as stiff as most modern rims; however they were easier to straighten too. The damage looks terrible but it is not unrealistic to think of some brute force and twenty minute's work with a spoke key rendering that wheel rideable again, at least to get home with.

cheers
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 18 September, 2019, 10:19:31 pm: Yes they say they straightened it out and rode on it for 3 days!
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 18 September, 2019, 10:19:50 pm: Quote from: bludger on 18 September, 2019, 09:42:07 pm
I actually own a copy of the rough stuff book. One of my favourite photos is this one:

Twin horns.
Clicky odometers.
Centre pulls.
Buckles like that!

Hard to date it - a 60s bike, photo taken in the 70s?
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 18 September, 2019, 10:20:33 pm: 1972 according to the book.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Frank9755 on 19 September, 2019, 06:55:38 am: I thought about getting a new frame this time last year.

I considered a few. In particular the Kinesis RTD and the Mason Bokeh. I wanted something with relaxed geometry and a lower bottom bracket - as much for aeros as for stability. I discovered that the trend is towards more relaxed / stable frames for this kind of bike - which makes sense as that was what I wanted.

The Bokeh is slacker and IIRC has a lower bottom bracket. I almost bought it, then I dug out the geometry chart of my current frame and found it was very similar. The BB is lower but the frame angles were identical. So I thought, what is the point, and didn't bother.

Also I didn't particularly want to have an aluminium frame. I've nothing against aluminium frames - I ride one most days - just they are always going to be 3-400g heavier than a carbon one. That's not much weight, but I don't see the point in adding it if I can avoid it.

The other thing that put me off was learning about through axles - essentially if I bought a new frame all my current wheels would instantly become obsolete.

Finally, when I was doing the Shark back in March, I overheard a couple of guys who had Bokehs talking about them. They had both wanted to like them but had been really disappointed. The phrase I recall was along the lines of 'it is marketed as a bike that can do everything, but what you find is that it isn't particularly good at anything'.

I was kind of pleased to hear that, to reassure me that I wasn't missing out. Although I think it is probably being a bit unfair. I am firmly of the view that, as long as the geometry enables you to set it up to your chosen fit, the frame doesn't matter very much. The tyres and, to a lesser extent, the wheels, are what make the difference to the ride. Suspension seat posts and suspension stems are also options.

One thing that I've never fallen for is titanium frames. I looked at some, such as Jesse Carlsson's Curve Belgie, to check out the geometry (it's a bit tighter than the Bokeh and fairly similar to RTD). If I rode one I might have an instant conversion, but I don't see the point in them.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: rob on 20 September, 2019, 03:11:50 pm: Thanks, everyone.

I think I'll go carbon but may not bother with discs/wide tyres. The 2 long races that I have registered for are mostly on road or cycle path and this looks like the scope of use for the next couple of years at least.

On wheels I'll need to restock anyway as all of my wheels are fixed. I suspect, though that I will avoid the through-axle design. Similarly I'm happy with a double chainset and a reasonable range of gears. I've been pushing a chunky single gear for long enough that a 34*28 bottom gear will be more than enough.

As long as the frame is sound I can upgrade the other components as they wear out.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 20 September, 2019, 03:55:10 pm: There are bound to be some really terrific rim brake carbon deals coming up soon.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 September, 2019, 04:54:54 pm: Quote from: rob on 20 September, 2019, 03:11:50 pm
Thanks, everyone.

I think I'll go carbon but may not bother with discs/wide tyres. The 2 long races that I have registered for are mostly on road or cycle path and this looks like the scope of use for the next couple of years at least.

On wheels I'll need to restock anyway as all of my wheels are fixed. I suspect, though that I will avoid the through-axle design. Similarly I'm happy with a double chainset and a reasonable range of gears. I've been pushing a chunky single gear for long enough that a 34*28 bottom gear will be more than enough.

As long as the frame is sound I can upgrade the other components as they wear out.

If one of those is RatN, personally I wouldn't want to do it on anything less than 28mm, and ideally 32mm...

J
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: rob on 20 September, 2019, 05:02:12 pm: Quote from: quixoticgeek on 20 September, 2019, 04:54:54 pm
Quote from: rob on 20 September, 2019, 03:11:50 pm
Thanks, everyone.

I think I'll go carbon but may not bother with discs/wide tyres. The 2 long races that I have registered for are mostly on road or cycle path and this looks like the scope of use for the next couple of years at least.

On wheels I'll need to restock anyway as all of my wheels are fixed. I suspect, though that I will avoid the through-axle design. Similarly I'm happy with a double chainset and a reasonable range of gears. I've been pushing a chunky single gear for long enough that a 34*28 bottom gear will be more than enough.

As long as the frame is sound I can upgrade the other components as they wear out.

If one of those is RatN, personally I wouldn't want to do it on anything less than 28mm, and ideally 32mm...

J

It's a good point. My theory is that I have done all of my long riding in the last 2 years on 23mm tyres pumped to 100psi with an ally frame and no tri-bars. Whilst I recognise the new build will not be super comfy it should represent an improvement whilst not losing much in the way of speed/responsiveness.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 September, 2019, 05:07:04 pm: Quote from: rob on 20 September, 2019, 05:02:12 pm
It's a good point. My theory is that I have done all of my long riding in the last 2 years on 23mm tyres pumped to 100psi with an ally frame and no tri-bars. Whilst I recognise the new build will not be super comfy it should represent an improvement whilst not losing much in the way of speed/responsiveness.

How much of that has been on shitty block paving? RatN is "100% paved" but I'd say that less than 200km of it is quality tarmac, and the rest is various forms of block paving. I did literally scream in agony on one stretch as it was so horrible (around Volendaam, area, north of Amsterdam).

And the Friesen coast leg just sucks, horrible surface.

What's the other race you're planning ?

I really love my 32mm GP5k. I hadn't realised how much faster over shit surface they were until I made up a couple of hundred meters on 3 people on a recent audax. They were on 23, 25, and 28's. I'm putting a lot of it down to the tires, it's unlikely to be better bike handling.

J

J
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Kim on 20 September, 2019, 08:00:46 pm: Dutch paving seems optimised for wide (by road standards) tyres with no air in them. Wide tyres with a sensible amount of air in them seem to have a real advantage over the skinny ones that work best on good tarmac.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 September, 2019, 08:13:47 pm: Quote from: Kim on 20 September, 2019, 08:00:46 pm
Dutch paving seems optimised for wide (by road standards) tyres with no air in them. Wide tyres with a sensible amount of air in them seem to have a real advantage over the skinny ones that work best on good tarmac.

This suggests way more thought process related to it than reality...

J
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Kim on 20 September, 2019, 08:20:35 pm: Yeah, I know it's more about sinking sand, combined with a distinctly un-British approach^[1] to maintenance.

_{[1] For an example of what happens when you take a British approach to maintaining Dutch-style block paving in subsidence-prone conditions, I refer you to the University Of York's very own Arenberg Trench (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=109665.msg2401340#msg2401340).}
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 September, 2019, 08:24:32 pm: Quote from: Kim on 20 September, 2019, 08:20:35 pm
Yeah, I know it's more about sinking sand, combined with a distinctly un-British approach^[1] to maintenance.

Un-British approach to what? I don't understand, what does that last word mean? I can't find it in my English->Dutch dictionary...

J
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Kim on 20 September, 2019, 08:33:37 pm: Quote from: quixoticgeek on 20 September, 2019, 08:24:32 pm
Quote from: Kim on 20 September, 2019, 08:20:35 pm
Yeah, I know it's more about sinking sand, combined with a distinctly un-British approach^[1] to maintenance.

Un-British approach to what? I don't understand, what does that last word mean? I can't find it in my English->Dutch dictionary...

What's the one thing that's worse than just leaving a block paving path to disintegrate as the ground subsides?

(click to show/hide)
Waiting until the disintegration becomes fairly bad, and then chucking a barrow-load of ACME® insta-pothole-repair mix™ on the deepest bit before running away.

Obviously bodges this terrible can only be properly implemented with a couple of layers of outsourcing to protect the guilty.

It's stuff like this that makes me appreciate the wheelbarrow man at UKC whose job it was roam the campus shovelling sand under the wobblier paving slabs.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Brucey on 20 September, 2019, 09:08:26 pm: wider tyres -of the same construction- have lower rolling resistance at any given pressure and work better on poor surfaces.

BUT.... they are also heavier and less aerodynamic; and these things count all the tine, not just part of it.

So over a distance you might be faster on different tyres depending on what the surface is like and how much of your energy cube is being burned up in aero losses. My best guess is that, right now, a typical audax rider on tarmac is going to be fastest on 25mm or 28mm tyres.

It also makes a difference how springy your frame and fork are; the springier they are the less benefit you are liable to accrue from having fat tyres. Thus anything that is liable to render the frame and fork stiffer is also liable to skew your tyre choice towards fatter tyres. There's nothing cast in stone here (and goodness knows there are exceptions) but in many cases disc brakes = stiffer frame and fork = fatter tyres = slower bike.

It is comparatively rare that I get on a modern bike and I think the fork is nice and supple. Same with the frameset. It seems to me that they are all built for folk that weigh 120kg and don't necessarily appreciate ride quality. Bikes like this need fatter tyres more than most...

cheers
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: rob on 20 September, 2019, 09:54:56 pm: And that’s another useful point. I generally run 60-65kg and don’t suffer that badly with comfort on long rides. I have tingly fingers and had a little saddle sore after PBP.

I did do the Dutch Capitals 1400 a few years back which followed a pretty similar route to RAtN. It was a while ago, but I don’t remember suffering all that badly.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 23 September, 2019, 10:45:58 pm: Seems like the right thread... Planet X just put out some new ti offroad/gravel bikes

This one is... wow. Ti frame, fulcrum wheels and SRAM Force for £1800.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBTIGR650FOR1/titus-goldrush-force1

(https://www.planetx.co.uk/imgs/products/px/950x600_constWH/CBTIGR650FOR1_P1-05.jpg?v=5)

I want it.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: vorsprung on 24 September, 2019, 10:43:27 am: Quote from: bludger on 20 September, 2019, 03:55:10 pm
There are bound to be some really terrific rim brake carbon deals coming up soon.

I assume because there is less demand for rim brake bikes and there is old stock of rim brake bikes? I'm not sure how well that holds. There are increasingly fewer designs that use rim brakes already and there are still plenty of people who (for whatever reason) prefer rim brakes. The reverse could be true, the diminishing pool of rim braked carbon bikes might be more in demand and so command a higher price
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: bludger on 24 September, 2019, 01:31:28 pm: I am thinking more because it's A. the end of season sales soon (in early November I got my bike reduced from RRP £1.8k to £1.1) and B. disc brakes seem to be definitely in vogue. The industry does hate having a long tail, my understanding is they will use discounts to shift stuff that is going out of style and open up warehouse space for the bigger sellers ahead of Christmas and the new year.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: grams on 24 September, 2019, 01:46:57 pm: They'll only have unsold rim brake stock to shift if they somehow haven't noticed disc brakes catching on and over-ordered.

I bet the Chinese factories know what's up and have retooled to disc frames very closely in line with demand. Carbon raw materials and manpower are too expensive to waste on churning out things nobody wants.

I reckon if anything you'll find an over supply of disc frames from companies that have believed too much "everyone's going to buy a gravel bike" hype.
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: Brucey on 24 September, 2019, 01:53:45 pm: its all supply and demand. If the importers/ retailers have guessed the market wrongly, this is the time of year where they drop the prices so that they make room for next year's stock.

I just took a look at P-X's website and the (rim brake version) EC-130E frameset is only £377 (in the medium-small 49cm frame size only) and their Pro-carbon frameset is only £233 (in all sizes). Stonking value, even if a headset isn't necessarily supplied.

cheers
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: DuncanM on 24 September, 2019, 03:33:56 pm: I assume the stuff like the Pro-Carbon has a long stock life, so they ordered a ton of them and they have been shifting them over time - now they need to clear the rest before they become obsolete.

The real bargains to be had are from people changing from a perfectly good rim brake bike to a new disc one (or even realising they are never going back to rim brakes and selling off all their old nice wheels). Canti-braked CX bikes are a particular bargain (providing you can live with canti or mini-V brakes).
Title: Re: Do I NEED a Gravel Style Bike for Long Road Events ?
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 26 September, 2019, 07:10:16 am: Quote from: Brucey on 24 September, 2019, 01:53:45 pm

I just took a look at P-X's website and the (rim brake version) EC-130E frameset is only £377 (in the medium-small 49cm frame size only) and their Pro-carbon frameset is only £233 (in all sizes). Stonking value, even if a headset isn't necessarily supplied.

Yeah, I'm trying to resist a Pro Carbon frameset to make use of the rim brake wheels and groupset I've got hanging around...I really should just sell them, but... :facepalm: