Author Topic: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?  (Read 35672 times)

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #50 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:27:11 pm »
In summer it bucketed down with rain on my commute back home, my summer shower jacket is black, on that 7 mile journey as was nearly wiped out three times as cars came so close to me, it was daylight but I had my rear LED on due to the rain, this prompted me to buy a hi vis for winter. I now find I get a little more respect but in-keeping with certain research on the whole cars are closer to me than before, I read an article by I think Dr Ian Walker and something that came out was the more proficient you look on the bike the less room a driver will give.

I think that your observation is flawed, and your conclusion is certainly flawed.

You were nearly hit 3 times whilst cycling in the middle of a heavy summer shower, whilst wearing black kit - but with a light on.

All that means is that 3 drivers passed you way to close. That happens to me EVERY DAY. Generally less frequently when it is bucketing down.

You say you now get a little more respect, though I fail to see how "on the whole cars are closer to me than before" equates to more respect and increased safety.

"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart

gonzo

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #51 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:29:27 pm »
a light is the best visibility aid going when the light fails. 

Wow, I always thought that a light was the best visibility aid when it hadn't failed. Could I just spray paint a toilet roll and pretend it's a light, or can car drivers tell the difference?!?

It's worth noting that I never wear hi-vis, but wearing clothing that blends in with the background is something I don't do (I have yet to go on safari in zebra mode).

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #52 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:30:40 pm »
The HiVi argument, suffers the same fate as the headlights on motorbikes argument - the counterintuitive nature of 'visibility'.

"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart

annie

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #53 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:32:53 pm »
I cannot believe intelligent people think riding in black in the winter gloom is fine, maybe you all live in central London but out in the sticks you just blend into the hedgerow on a dull day. You don't need Hi-vis just a brighter colour. Motorist around here are great normally giving you a wide birth but I don't want to be involved in a genuine " I am sorry I didn't see you" incident. Why take the risk.

I live in the sticks and obviously don't blend into the hedgerow as nearly all drivers give me plenty of room.  The only issue I had just recently was from the refuse collection van that overtook and had to pull in sharpish as there was traffic coming in the opposite direction.

The biggest problem is not that people don't see us on some of the country roads around here but that they are going too fast and so end up braking and swerving at the last minute, they don't expect to see anyone as they don't look ahead for other road users, they are selfish.  Many of the roads I cycle on are often only wide enough for one car.

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #54 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:34:56 pm »

They are visible. If they weren't you could see the road through them.

A simplistic argument that is of little value to this discussion.  I could dress myself in my grey Assos kit, lie in the road and would not be surprised if you ran over me in your car whilst not exceeding the speed limit.

Quote
You do not have a right to expect everyone else to make themselves visible beyond what is required by law. You do have a duty to conduct yourself such that you do not pose a danger to others, seen or unseen.

Rights?  As defined by whom or what?  Let's look a little closer at what the law requires... in daylight?  Nothing.  At night, a small front and rear light.  

Hardly sufficient, in my opinion, especially in a busy urban environment.

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #55 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:36:21 pm »
a light is the best visibility aid going when the light fails. 

Wow, I always thought that a light was the best visibility aid when it hadn't failed. Could I just spray paint a toilet roll and pretend it's a light, or can car drivers tell the difference?!?

It's worth noting that I never wear hi-vis, but wearing clothing that blends in with the background is something I don't do (I have yet to go on safari in zebra mode).

There is no need to be facetious, it should be clear considering out topic of discussion that "a light [of the kind one attaches to a bicycle] is the best visibility aid going when the light [provided by the sun] fails [i.e. diminishes, becomes less, fades, the eyes recieve the world in a grey patina etc]
"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart

annie

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #56 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:37:42 pm »
When I had my 'near death' experience a couple of weeks ago whilst out running I gave it some serious thought afterwards.  I was wearing a black tri-suit and a hi-vis jacket, was running towards the oncoming traffic and yet they still drove straight at me and my friend, resulting in us diving into the hedgerow.  This happened three times, the sun was very low, the drivers were not looking for anyone on the road.  Despite me wearing my hi-vis jacket I was apparently invisible.  

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #57 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:37:48 pm »


I have yet to see an invisible cyclist or, for that matter, anything at the roadside which is invisible.


If there was an award for Stupid Post of the Year, that would win it!   ;D ;D ;D

Nobody has ever seen anything which is invisible.... Doh!!!  ::-)

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #58 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:39:04 pm »


I have yet to see an invisible cyclist or, for that matter, anything at the roadside which is invisible.


If there was an award for Stupid Post of the Year, that would win it!   ;D ;D ;D

Nobody has ever seen anything which is invisible  ::-)

I thought that was the point of Jurek's post and that it was rather witty in an understated kind of way.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #59 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:40:12 pm »
You are right!  Tis I who is the fool .  Doh! :-[

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #60 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:40:39 pm »
Bravo.


annie

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #61 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:42:03 pm »
You are right!  Tis I who is the fool .  Doh! :-[

There's always the 'naughty step.'

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #62 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:43:25 pm »
Oh not again  :-[

gonzo

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #63 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:44:23 pm »
There is no need to be facetious, it should be clear considering out topic of discussion that "a light [of the kind one attaches to a bicycle] is the best visibility aid going when the light [provided by the sun] fails [i.e. diminishes, becomes less, fades, the eyes recieve the world in a grey patina etc]

Sorry, there should have been a liberal smattering of smilies on that post!

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #64 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:44:43 pm »
...wearing the hi-vis dunces' cap...
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

annie

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #65 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:45:48 pm »
Oh not again  :-[

1 minute for every year of your life.

At this rate you can have a step with your name on it ;)

http://www.chrismadden.co.uk/yah/child-rearing-cartoon.jpg

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #66 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:48:40 pm »
I like the idea of other cyclists experimenting with black.  In time we will have enough empirical evidence to see whether their anecdotal evidence that it makes no difference is true. 

In the mean time, IMO they make life much safer for me in Hi Viz. 

(Devil-take-the-hindmost-kind-of-thing)

marcus

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #67 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:52:17 pm »
I tend to wear dark cycling gear but always have a bright flashing LED rear light & reflective sam brown belt in the dark. I've generally tended to think this is sufficient as cars normally give me a wide bearth when passing from behind but a couple of weeks ago a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.

This unnerved me quite a bit. Although all the evidence is that most car drivers have no problem seeing me it only needs one who doesn't ... And it's not much consolation knowing it was the driver's fault when you're in A&E (or worse). So I must say it's made me wonder whether I shouldn't go for more hi-viz stuff.

annie

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #68 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:54:32 pm »
I tend to wear dark cycling gear but always have a bright flashing LED rear light & reflective sam brown belt in the dark. I've generally tended to think this is sufficient as cars normally give me a wide bearth when passing from behind but a couple of weeks ago a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.

This unnerved me quite a bit. Although all the evidence is that most car drivers have no problem seeing me it only needs one who doesn't ... And it's not much consolation knowing it was the driver's fault when you're in A&E (or worse). So I must say it's made me wonder whether I shouldn't go for more hi-viz stuff.

My Altura Night Vision jacket (grey) really stands out well in the dark.  I get loads of room and respect.  All the hi-vis in the world isn't going to help if they are going too fast on a bend and on the wrong side of the road whilst chatting on their mobile.


David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #69 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:55:44 pm »
This is the problem. If most people wear HiVis then drivers will look for HiVis and take less care in looking for non HiVis. So we end up tending back to equilibrium in terms of safety, just with an added burden on the VRU. A net loss in safety.

But if HiVis makes you safer personally then why not wear it? This is the counter intuitive case of what is good for an individual being counterproductive for the group.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #70 on: 04 January, 2009, 08:59:36 pm »
Conditions are too various for one answer to apply. Hi-viz might get lost in the confusion of city lights and colours. Black might be best against a bright setting sun. Ultimately road users have to trust one another, and each try to be alert.

Really Ancien

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #71 on: 04 January, 2009, 09:01:46 pm »
I suppose that the OP is saying that if he was on an inquest jury and someone who'd run into two cyclists in black in poor visibility, then he'd be swayed by the defence. which might have an impact on the verdict and any possible compensation for the victims's relatives. I was out today and I saw a guy in black in poor visibility and I wondered how I looked, but our club kit has loads of white and yellow. I'm not bothered at all what people wear, it's their own look-out.

Damon.

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #72 on: 04 January, 2009, 09:03:46 pm »
a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.



Sounds to me like it could've been Pumpe.  :-*  ;)

annie

Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #73 on: 04 January, 2009, 09:05:12 pm »
a car slowed down as it was overtaking me & the driver shouted 'you're bloody invisible in that clothing'.



Sounds to me like it could've been Pumpe.  :-*  ;)

He was probably still on the naughty step though.

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Wearing black cycling gear in winter - plain daft or what ?
« Reply #74 on: 04 January, 2009, 09:07:46 pm »
I cannot believe intelligent people think riding in black in the winter gloom is fine, maybe you all live in central London but out in the sticks you just blend into the hedgerow on a dull day. You don't need Hi-vis just a brighter colour. Motorist around here are great normally giving you a wide birth but I don't want to be involved in a genuine " I am sorry I didn't see you" incident. Why take the risk.

Colour recognition is extremely low in drivers, and you can test this easily yourself.

The situation a drivers brain faces is thus: There is too much information being recieved, and changing too rapidly to analyse 100% of it.

A brain cannot do the impossible and proces more inforation than it is able to, so unlike a computer, which would continue to try and process 100% of the information - resulting in slower and slower performance, the brain does something very clever indeed.

Drawing on stored data of past experiences, the brain starts to cut out snipets of information deemed less relevent.

It begins with sound. Your brain knows the sound doesn't really matter a damn to your ability to drive. How many people have driven with the stereo on and 'missed' a track or numbers of tracks? Your brain has simply disregarded that information to save processing power.

Colour perception goes next. You will notice that under stress, if you think back really hard, nearly all the cars wll be black or grey. You can remeber the cars as objects, but their colour was disregarded. You simply didn't needed it.

Next to go are things you don't encounter very much. Starting small and working their way up. Birds, writing on the road (not lines), warnig signs you rarely see - they all get disregarded as more and more processing power is devoted to simply interpreting and reacting to what is on the road ahead.

You will have stopped using your mirrors by now, but you would swear blind that you had been.

Peripharel vison is the next thing to close down, this is a sign that you are really beginning to struggle, and worryingly this is the state that a hell of a lot of people drive at along unfamiliar fast roads. These drivers are those who cut close past your shoulder at 40,50,60 mph as they might have seen you ahead, and adjusted course slightly to take ccount of you, but you dissapeared from their interpreted vision at about their 10 o'clock, so they have already started moving back in by the time they pass you.

The next step is your brain will actually disregard the opposite side of the road.

The next stage is either a crash, or the driver is forced to slow for some other reason. Don't think that all this will happen at uber-speed, far from it. It can happen at 30mph. It can happen at 5mph crawling up to a junction. The pressure a driver can feel to get out of a juntion, can be enough to cause them to close their focus enough that they blank out an approacing motorbike, bicycle, or even car. Bus drivers often speak incredulously of the ability of cars to pull out right infornt of a hulking great red painted double decker. The truth is - for the driver concerned, it absolutely was not there. Their brain blanked it out.


A driver under stress is most likely to actively see something that is where they expect to see something. This generally means where they would expect to see another car, and as most drivers track the line of the road using the centreline not the edge, to be spotted, cycling a reasnoable distance from the kerb is the most effecetive way of being seen.

Wearing a particular colour is of limited effectiveness, as colour perception is one of the first areas of 'wasted' processing power a stressed brain shuts down. And a non-stressed brain is more than capable of detecting and recognising a cyclist, no matter what colour their clothing as the first step in visual recognition is matching the shape to a known shape, before the colour is recognised.

This is why Ian Franklin called HiVi tops "Urban Camoflage" as they serve to break up the outline of a cyclist, especially at night time, in the way that camoflage does to a soldier - making the brain disregard the object, as more data flows in.
"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart