Author Topic: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?  (Read 22889 times)

Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #25 on: 07 December, 2011, 04:07:07 pm »
I hope Simon doesn't have any feeling of responsibility for this. He does try to arrange sensible routes with non-car transport options. Does he really need to point out to people that staying up all night can make you sleepy?
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #26 on: 07 December, 2011, 04:12:59 pm »
Well said mrcharly. I was thinking something like that, but couldn't express myself.
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #27 on: 07 December, 2011, 04:48:41 pm »
I've said it before but driving back from long rides - including audaxes - is incredibly irresponsible.

I'd like to think that this tragedy may prompt organisers to plan events with at least a public transport option. Start/finish at a station rather than a remote car park, for example. Or list some local hotels.

I'd agree with this entirely. It's one of the the things that makes Audax incredibly difficult. You have to be able to make the start point of an event, which may be some distance from public transport, usually at an ungodly hour.
To some extent, I wish Audaxes started late at night and ran through the night. It would make getting to them and riding a lot easier, although supporting them would be that much more difficult for the organisers. However, this is not the place to have this discussion.

I am so terribly sad that this has happened.

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #28 on: 07 December, 2011, 05:30:01 pm »
This has shocked me, as I am sure it has others. It has been discussed a fair bit in audax threads,  often with someone saying ' it is only a matter of time'.  Now it has happened it feels very bad indeed.
There is an obvious 'whos to blame' goes on. Obviously anyone who stays up 27 hrs and then kills with a car is to blame - it is as bad as being pissed and getting into a car - but that is not how it feels when you do it - because nobody says it loud and clear is wrong. I know from experience myself.
Maybe this guy just thought 'thats what you do and it is OK - surely everyone does it'.
I don't see the matter getting any real attention in audax guidelines or ride briefings and maybe now it will and that would be a good thing.  I would hate to see this becoming used as a stick to beat our sport though.
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #29 on: 07 December, 2011, 05:44:40 pm »
Simon has just posted about this on Cyclechat.
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #30 on: 07 December, 2011, 06:20:16 pm »
Simon, I wouldn't take anything here as aimed at you, nor as casting any blame in your direction personally. I think, and it reads to me as though everyone else also thinks you're blameless in this.  As you say, a car driver hit another car after making his own misjudgement on how safe unrested driving is.
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mattc

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #31 on: 07 December, 2011, 06:21:31 pm »
Maybe this guy just thought 'thats what you do and it is OK - surely everyone does it'.
I don't see the matter getting any real attention in audax guidelines or ride briefings and maybe now it will and that would be a good thing.  I would hate to see this becoming used as a stick to beat our sport though.
I think there are a few significant differences between these events and Audax.
Firstly, because most Audax events start quite early in the morning, it's only a minority that ride through a night with no sleep at all - and perhaps more importantly, when they do it is usually by choice. FNRttC (and its immitators) are ALL ABOUT riding straight through until dawn.

2ndly, Most long audaxes have some kind of indoor finish control, and it is very rare that one cannot grab an hour's sleep at these places - often there are specific arrangements made.

3rdly, It is very rare for an Audaxer to ride overnight before they have been in the club for a while, ridden a number of shorter events, and chatted to other riders about stuff like this. The issue will have been in their minds for a while, I would wager. This recent tragedy sounds a bit like someone jumping in the deep end. Possibly.

On the point about guidelines, I can honestly say that whenever I've been aware of someone driving home, at least 1 rider/helper has reminded them of the issues, and pointed out possible work-arounds. So I think it is "in the culture" that we should all take care, and look after each-other.

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #32 on: 07 December, 2011, 06:22:06 pm »
Nonetheless, I don't think it's right to be discussing this when Simon's not a member of the forum.
Getting there...

mattc

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #33 on: 07 December, 2011, 06:25:05 pm »
Simon, I wouldn't take anything here as aimed at you, nor as casting any blame in your direction personally. I think, and it reads to me as though everyone else also thinks you're blameless in this.  As you say, a car driver hit another car after making his own misjudgement on how safe unrested driving is.

Well put.

If you're reading this Simon, I think you did the right thing to carry on.

It's only sensible that we discuss this - even if the only conclusion is to remind ourselves the risks are real, and we shouldn't discount it, just cos nothing bad usually happens. As the unofficial Home of Audax, YACF is as good a place as any to talk about it.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #34 on: 07 December, 2011, 06:33:02 pm »
Nonetheless, I don't think it's right to be discussing this when Simon's not a member of the forum.
...because we should never discuss anything without everyone being talked about being on the forum?  Have you looked at the politics board?

(absolutely no criticism of Simon at all, I think he does an amazing job and am very glad he's not stopping the rides).


Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #35 on: 07 December, 2011, 07:34:27 pm »
Sleepiness is a tricky one. Not like booze where it can be more or less quantified. Being awake for over 24 hours can make you hopelessly dozy, or you could still be wide awake and have plenty of hours left in you before you need a sleep. So purely trying to judge your tiredness by the number of hours you've been awake for is a very poor judgement. Too many other factors will have an effect, which can often be very significant. Strenuous physical activity, which gives a training effect, will mean that your body produces sleep inducing hormones as part of the recovery process. A fitt and strong rider won't have the training effect, so may not feel so sleepy after the same ride.
In short, you have to judge for yourself whether you're in a fit state and err on the side of caution. If you find your mind going astray, your short term memory is fading, you feel sleepy, relatively simple logical thinking becomes more of a challenge then it's probably worth seeing if you can get some sleep before you do anything like driving. Also have a plan of action if you're not fit to drive straight after the event. I often have several plans and schedules for long distance rides, so that if I'm not up to the most ambitious plan, which may be because I think I will get sleepy on a night section, I'll work around it or downgrade my ambitions.

I hope that Simon does continue his excellent night rides. Night riding is a great thing to do, if done well. They are very well designed rides, given that they end near a train station. They seem to do a lot for cycling and it'd be a big shame if they stopped.

I've ridden Audax, I've ridden FNRTTC and I've worked night shifts. If I had to pick the real baddie, I'd pick night shifts, but they all need to be dealt with carefully. It's not a matter of this is good and that is bad. It's a matter of learning your limitations.

Adam

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #36 on: 07 December, 2011, 07:44:47 pm »
Reading the article, it states he drove back from Whitstable to St Albans, which is 2 hours away, which isn't what I'd want to do, immediately after a night ride with no rest.  The train would do it in a similar time.  Having said that, I've done over 30 FNRttCs and no longer suffer afterwards, the way I did on the first few.

As others have said, it was a tragic bit of judgement, leaving someone dead, which sadly does happen on the roads.

You can't plan for every possible set of circumstances - all you can do is limit the possible problems.  Knowing the level of preparation that goes into the rides, including multiple test rides both day and night route checking and considering alterations to suit current weather conditions, Simon does all he can to mitigate issues for riders.

Something like this happening is outside of his control, as ultimately those taking part are adults and (possibly apart from some of the hills) know what's expected of them.
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Si_Co

Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #37 on: 07 December, 2011, 09:09:00 pm »
At the end of the day someone whose recreation involves being a vulnerable road user has made a very bad judgement call and the consequences have been awful. No blame should accrue to anyone except the chap himself who now has to live with it, it could have been any event or even a private ride. My own experiences tell me that I am not fit to drive immediatley after an extended ride irrespective of the time of day/night, this is why the Mrs collects me if I end up a long way from home.

Other tragedies tell us that 27 hrs without sleep and then driving is totally reckless without adding extended physical exertion into the equation.  FFS he could have slept in the car.

Deepest condolences to the bereaved.

mmmmartin

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #38 on: 08 December, 2011, 11:39:18 am »
This has long been a bone of contention. Those doing extreme events where they are left unfit to drive through fatigue putting others in danger.
This is exactly the sort of uninformed and badly argued cobblers for which the internet is famous.

For a start, riding to the coast is hardly an "extreme event" - it's only 70 miles even to bognor or whitstable, which is well within the capabilities of even the occasional sunday-only rider. Further, being "left unfit to drive through fatigue" does NOT of itself put others in danger. What puts other in danger is driving when unfit. FNRttC always finish near a railway station and choosing to stay up all night and then drive home is the silly thing, especially when all the advice is to get the train home. Riding a bike at night isn't.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

mmmmartin

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #39 on: 08 December, 2011, 11:43:43 am »
I've said it before but driving back from long rides - including audaxes - is incredibly irresponsible.
Audax UK tells you to rest and sleep after long rides.
I'd like to think that this tragedy may prompt organisers to plan events with at least a public transport option. Start/finish at a station rather than a remote car park, for example. Or list some local hotels.
The FNRttC always finishes at a railway station. So when you say " this tragedy may prompt organisers to plan events with at least a public transport option" you are well behind the times, these events have been doing precisely that since the start.
A bit of prior research before posting sometimes doesn't go amiss.....
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #40 on: 08 December, 2011, 11:48:51 am »
I've said it before but driving back from long rides - including audaxes - is incredibly irresponsible.
Audax UK tells you to rest and sleep after long rides.
I'd like to think that this tragedy may prompt organisers to plan events with at least a public transport option. Start/finish at a station rather than a remote car park, for example. Or list some local hotels.
The FNRttC always finishes at a railway station. So when you say " this tragedy may prompt organisers to plan events with at least a public transport option" you are well behind the times, these events have been doing precisely that since the start.
A bit of prior research before posting sometimes doesn't go amiss.....

My point was not aimed at FNRttC and did not mention FNRttC - because I know how it is organised and have seen the discussions about rail services.

But the same is not true for many events - including Audax. How many routes are planned based on PT start and finish? How many route sheets include details of local hotels? How many route sheets strongly emphasise that driving after the event is not just ill advised but inexcusable from the POV of our community.

Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #41 on: 08 December, 2011, 11:53:38 am »
This terrible incident is a salutory reminder of the effects on driving whilst sleep-deprived. It doesn't really matter what the activity was beforehand. I fell asleep at the wheel in 07 after the Brevet Cymru. It was the first and only time, and at the time I thought I was wide awake. The rumble strips on the M5 woke me up, but it could easily have an accident.

I don't feel organisers of night rides bear liability but perhaps reminders of the dangers should be a little more overt, especially for younger less experienced riders.

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #42 on: 08 December, 2011, 11:55:43 am »
It's not about how 'extreme' the event is. Simply being awake for an extended period of time creates fatigue; that fatigue is intensified by energy use - and obviously, a 70 mile bike ride uses a considerable amount of energy! In my line of work, fatigue is a prevalent problem, and is often expressed in terms of blood-alcohol concentration equivalence. The fatigue accumulated by being awake for 24 hours (which is not unusual in flying or overnight rides, I'd suggest) leaves one with a blood-alcohol concentration equivalence of about 0.1%*, which is significantly above the maximum allowed for driving and gives some idea of how potentially dangerous it is to drive after such a ride. Once again, I emphasize that it is the individual's responsibility to mitigate this, not the organiser's.

*If you'd like to read more, see here.

Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #43 on: 08 December, 2011, 11:58:32 am »
I've said it before but driving back from long rides - including audaxes - is incredibly irresponsible.

I'd like to think that this tragedy may prompt organisers to plan events with at least a public transport option. Start/finish at a station rather than a remote car park, for example. Or list some local hotels.
I missed your post yesterday - and I guess you missed someone pointing out that not only does Simon do as you suggest, but he actively promotes using the trains, even going to the length of pointing out the cheap ticket deals.
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #44 on: 08 December, 2011, 12:51:34 pm »
Sleepiness is a tricky one. Not like booze where it can be more or less quantified. Being awake for over 24 hours can make you hopelessly dozy, or you could still be wide awake and have plenty of hours left in you before you need a sleep. So purely trying to judge your tiredness by the number of hours you've been awake for is a very poor judgement. Too many other factors will have an effect, which can often be very significant. Strenuous physical activity, which gives a training effect, will mean that your body produces sleep inducing hormones as part of the recovery process. A fit and strong rider won't have the training effect, so may not feel so sleepy after the same ride.

Wotesed.  I've found myself having to stop for a snooze on the way back from a 200 on more than one occasion.  Conversely I've driven back to that London from Derby after a 600 and not felt the slightest inclination to doze off.
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #45 on: 08 December, 2011, 02:25:15 pm »
Conversely I've driven back to that London from Derby after a 600 and not felt the slightest inclination to doze off.
That's the need-to-get-away-from-Derby factor over-riding the sleepiness factor.
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #46 on: 08 December, 2011, 07:18:38 pm »
I never drive the day after an overnight ride unless I've had a substantial sleep (I usually manage 4-5 hours after a Dun Run).  Certainly not after a FNRttS, when I'm lucky to have passed out for 20 minutes on the train.  Remember the Selby rail crash?  Exactly the same thing.

Having said that, I'm not sure that a ride organiser can be responsible for this.  Most people won't drive back and trying to weed out those who intend to drive is going beyond any reasonable expectation.

If you're going to ban all night bike rides, you'd also need to ban overnight ferries unless a berth is booked, night clubs, solstice celebrations, amateur astronomy etc etc.  After all, people might drive home from those too.
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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #47 on: 08 December, 2011, 07:21:56 pm »
If you read Simon's piece on Cyclechat, the guy in question was one of a group of 4 who bailed early as they had a deadline and went to a different station. They had actually left his ride and were on a private excursion.
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rogerzilla

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #48 on: 08 December, 2011, 07:25:49 pm »
If you read Simon's piece on Cyclechat, the guy in question was one of a group of 4 who bailed early as they had a deadline and went to a different station. They had actually left his ride and were on a private excursion.
Simon and I have our differences, but I don't think he needs to defend himself in this case.
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mmmmartin

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Re: "Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?
« Reply #49 on: 08 December, 2011, 07:30:40 pm »
I don't think he needs to defend himself in this case.
Quite so. The idea that he is responsible in any way for the actions of 100 people for the next four hours after his rides finish simply doesn't hold water does it?
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.