Core strength

[Rich753]

Just Google for Peter Keen there are a few useful links, this one caught my eye
High Performance Interval Training | Association of British Cycling Coaches
the second paragraph Specific Muscle Fibre Actions makes interesting reading and explains what I have been trying to ( unsuccessfully) explain.

No, this is great - I think you and I actually agree more than you think!

Both of us recognize that the key to speed is to recruit muscle fibres, just that I'm suggesting a more general initial recruitment phase using weight training (squats are similar enough to pedalling to work at a gross level)  before going into a cycling specific phase where those recruited fibres are turned into cycling-useful workhorses.

[Wendy]

I'm also with inc on doing weights, I don't think it'll have any useful benefit for Liz at all, and probably not much for any cyclists outside of track sprinting.  I've seen this view confirmed by some fairly high level coaches too.  Weights have a limited place in speedskating, but then leg forces are at least an order of magnitude higher than they are in cycling.

[Rich753]

To return to the "core" topic ...

I had a thought  today - riding along happily on the 'hoods I remembered a time when I just couldn't get comfortable for any time on the 'hoods never mind on the drops. Only really became able to ride that way after  working on my core strength - this after years of riding, including audaxes, when I'd tried consistently to get comfortable but hadn't worked.

The improvement in aerodynamics is probably worth a couple of KPH at least. So my practical experience shows a direct correlation between improved core stability and speed.

Obviously YMMV, and Liz may already feel comfortable in a very aerodynamic posiiton,  so may not be relevant.

[Wendy]

My feeling is that that describes to me either a bike setup error, or an incorrect body position.  I see this sort of positional error all the time with skating, and it's just because people's own proprioception and body self knowledge has a very different feeling to what they see in others demonstrating the correct position.  It's very hard to adjust this sort of thing, and it takes a lot of disciplined care and persistance.  I've noticed the same sort of thing watching cyclists - watching body language and movement is my full time job after all, I can't just turn my eye for it off.

Core strength may patch the symptoms, but it won't address the cause of discomfort.

[inc]

The improvement in aerodynamics is probably worth a couple of KPH at least. So my practical experience shows a direct correlation between improved core stability and speed.

I would say it shows a correlation between position and speed, which is well known and documented. If after years of cycling you could not get comfortable on the hoods, less so the drops then your position is most probably wrong.

[Rich753]

The improvement in aerodynamics is probably worth a couple of KPH at least. So my practical experience shows a direct correlation between improved core stability and speed.

I would say it shows a correlation between position and speed, which is well known and documented. If after years of cycling you could not get comfortable on the hoods, less so the drops then your position is most probably wrong.

Position before core stability training  = uncomfortable and unsustainable for any distance

Same position after core stability training = comfortable and sustainable for  reasonable distances.

[inc]

Position before core stability training  = uncomfortable and unsustainable for any distance

Same position after core stability training = comfortable and sustainable for  reasonable distances.

I understood what you were saying but as as others have also said you are treating the symptoms not the cause. You say you have been cycling some time including Audax and could not get comfortable, now after core training you can  but you don't say where your previous discomfort was and whether you have altered your position. Every cyclist should be comfortable riding on the hoods, it is where 80% of most riding is done. If your problems were with your back and you have now used resistance training to strengthen your back I would be a little concerned you are masking a basic positional problem which has not been addressed and may return when you overload it either by effort and/or distance.

[dehomag]

What comes first though, the chicken or the egg ?

Any position is uncomfortable if the body isn't able to cope with it. Making the body cope with it by training makes the position right/a good one. A body changes, is able to adapt as you know.

[Wendy]

Except it's not a chicken/egg situation. Bad position will eventually cause pain, good position won't.

[inc]

What comes first though, the chicken or the egg ?

Any position is uncomfortable if the body isn't able to cope with it. Making the body cope with it by training makes the position right/a good one. A body changes, is able to adapt as you know.

Your position on a bike should be comfortable from the start. Getting your position right should be the first priority. For the more extreme positions for TTs it would  be logically that this would be after training for years for the event with progression to the most effective position for yourself part of this process. I think some of the problem is that most frames seem to come in three sizes and people don't. So a med is right for top tube length but the bars are too low without a pile of stackers and the stem upside down and a large frame with a longer head tube is better for bar height but the top tube is too long. People also buy complete bikes, the shop may change bits but if you don't know exactly what width bars , length stem etc you need  you may end up with something close but not right.

[annie]

It has taken me approximately 18 months to get my position on the bike to a point where I can ride 200km's without being in agony.  I still have a long way to go however and I know that I have very good core strength.  My problems result from asymmetry in the pelvic area and no amount of extra training will correct this.  If I had poor core strength my problems would undoubtedly be much worse.

[dehomag]

I don't really know what you are saying now inc. I don't think you are saying that a bike has to be 100% right from the start and a rider should not have to adapt are you ?

I am not saying that any old bike will do. It is highly unlikely that the correct bar width as defined by my anatomy is exactly 44cm but i have adapted to this width and it is comfortable for me for very long rides day in day out. Same can be said of the relative bar distance, saddle position and height.

[dehomag]

It has taken me approximately 18 months to get my position on the bike to a point where I can ride 200km's without being in agony.  I still have a long way to go however and I know that I have very good core strength.  My problems result from asymmetry in the pelvic area and no amount of extra training will correct this.  If I had poor core strength my problems would undoubtedly be much worse.

that is what I am saying, it's a bit of both.

[inc]

I don't really know what you are saying now inc. I don't think you are saying that a bike has to be 100% right from the start and a rider should not have to adapt are you ?

For an experienced rider yes, of course,  they should know exactly what their  position should be and set every bike up the same. For someone less experienced it is more difficult as it is easy to set virtually any bike up and ride it, so off the peg, near enough from some formulae is probably OK.  The problems are when the loads go up. Commuting, general riding, usually  no problem. But then maybe longer rides, faster rides on the same bike, same position and niggles start. Since the position gave no problems before, it may not be the obvious suspect now but usually is. Finding what gives the most comfortable position takes time and is not always simple. An example would be bars, a some bike fit methods use nose of the saddle to the centre of the bars for reach, (overreaching is probably the biggest cause of back problems)  two problems,  the saddle nose can give up to 30-40mm difference depending on the saddle, and with so many bars available you can easily have two  with the same reach and drop but because of the different bend give the hoods 30mm different position,  enough change to make the difference between being comfortable after 3 hours or not. Most cyclist would consider going from a 90mm stem to a 120mm stem a large change but maybe not consider the effect of the bend in the bars. The difference in position between comfortable  or not can be just mm.

[MSeries]

I'm with inc on the bars thing. It is something I did. Removed those anatomic bars, removed the STis and fitted old style curved bars and regular brake levers. That bike became like my others and is now very very comfortable for 200 miles at least.  From the recent comments in this thread we should remember that everyone is different; whether people have trained their core or not, some people will be stronger in that area than others and hence more able to deal with the demands put on it.

[Chris S]

Bump

I've put in the two fastest rides I've ever done, in the last week.

I'm pretty sure this is down to core strength. I did the Hundred Push-up Challenge (though I didn't complete it) over the winter, and have been concentrating on my core at the gym for several months.

I definitely feel like my torso is a more stable platform for pushing out some power on a flat/undulating ride. I still don't think I'm much good at hill climbing, though my Dorset Coast 200 was over an hour faster than my previous fastest.

Core Strength Rocks  .

[Greenbank]

Excellent.

I'll be testing out my core strength (push-up challenge and gym work) soon. I've got 20 hour upper body workout next Saturday; The Elenith on fixed.

[toontra]

Bump

I've put in the two fastest rides I've ever done, in the last week.

I'm pretty sure this is down to core strength. I did the Hundred Push-up Challenge (though I didn't complete it) over the winter, and have been concentrating on my core at the gym for several months.

I definitely feel like my torso is a more stable platform for pushing out some power on a flat/undulating ride. I still don't think I'm much good at hill climbing, though my Dorset Coast 200 was over an hour faster than my previous fastest.

Core Strength Rocks  .

Well done!  That's the best test really, isn't it - that it works for you.  It's certainly worked for me, and it's not just lack of niggles on long rides.  It's also the upper body/lower body relationship which seems to be in better balance, and there is more power available in general, not just the legs.

And as I said upthread (if I remember!) it can't do any harm, so why not give it a go.

BTW, talking about the 100 push-up thingie, I reached the target back in December and instantly gave up!  On Wednesday last week I remembered about push-ups and gave it a go - managed 100 straight off!  Well pleased 

[Malandro]

So which core exercises have you all found the most effective?

[David Martin]

So which core exercises have you all found the most effective?

Plank with opposing extensions.
my TT position is now much improved.

..d

[toontra]

So which core exercises have you all found the most effective?

No one specific exercise - general pilates classes.  Pilates is all about developing the core.