Please help a Luddite

[hatler]

I love the simplicity of bikes, and spend my life trying to escape 'tech'.

However, every now and then I ponder if a GPS would be useful/fun/enhance my riding. And all I have to do is peer at one of the 'What GPS is best for ... ' threads on this board and I glaze over about two posts in. This serves to reinforce my anti-tech stance.

Now, following a recent and very (in fact, too) brief Normandy jaunt with the hatlers. I came to the conclusion that a GPS would be useful, but only for the purpose of providing turn by turn instructions. However, I want to be able to make the route up on the morning of departure, and will not be linking the GPS with any other device.

The question therefore is, what is the best (for 'best', read 'most practicable') GPS device on which to build a route (which I will have devised using a real paper map) which can then be used to guide me through a day's route ?

Long battery life is also desirable (I do not have and don't anticipate getting a dynamo).

Many thanks, as ever.

[cycleman]

Satmap . you can plot a route straight on to the GPS ethier directly or transfer one from your computer .☺

[Feanor]

I think what you want is not really easily possible.
Any GPS device small enough for you to want it on a bike is too small to plan routes on very easily.

I've always pre-loaded routes / tracks / waypoints ahead of setting out.
I've never tried to do that stuff on-the-road.

It's possible that there may be some options using USB OTG and a tablet device.
Others can comment on that.

[fuaran]

Depends on how complicated a route you want, and if you are bothered about the exact route.

If you just want to pick a destination for each day, with one or two stops along the way, you could enter that into the GPS. Then let the GPS create a route to those points.
The problem is the GPS will create a route, but it might not be the route you want. It might not be very nice for cycling, ie main roads, or muddy paths etc. This will depend on where you are, and what sort of maps you are using, and the settings and routing algorithm on the GPS.

For rural areas, I think this can work pretty well. ie there's only few roads to choose from, and they are not too busy. And you will end up in the right place at the end of the day.

[Kim]

It's probably fair to say that there's a roughly linear trade-off between battery life and ease of use, because friendly user interfaces need a lot of power:  At one end you have the smartphones with user-friendly apps and the TomTom-style motorist^[1]-oriented satnavs - reasonably easy to use in a "take me to here, via here and here" style, but battery life that's incompatible with a full day's riding.  At the other you have the hiker GPSes like the Garmin eTrex series, which will happily run for 2-3 days of touring on a decent pair of AA batteries, but with complicated and often downright quirky user interfaces that have evolved from their device-that's-designed-to-supplement-a-map-and-compass heritage.  The bike-specific GPSes are broadly similar, but with features aimed at people who do Sport and Training and stuff.  They suffer from integrated batteries.

Depending on what particular flavour of luddite you happen to be, you might be quite happy with tediously entering waypoints as coordinates into a hiker-oriented device, or you might insist on an easily scrolled feature-rich map to click on.  Either way, the auto-routing ('from A to D via B and C') is going to be occasionally quirky and/or at odds with your opinion of what's a sensible cycling route, because that's the nature of maps.  The outdoors type units allow you to upload a 'track' - ie. 'a line on the map' which can be displayed and sometimes actively prompted as you follow it, but creating tracks tends to require a proper computer of some sort^[2] running route-planning software, and transferring them to the GPS can be awkward from mobile devices.

If you're a luddite with a smartphone, I suggest you start with that and some free/cheap app(s), and get an idea of what it's like in use before investing in more practical hardware.  If you're a luddite that's allergic to learning curves, I suggest you either lower your expectations^[3], or better invest the effort in a really nice paper map holder.


_{[1] The ones designed for motorcycles are viable options on a bicycle, but power efficiency isn't a design priority.
[2] Possibly a web-based service.
[3] Eg. Many devices do an excellent job of showing "you are here" on a live-scrolling, waterproof, backlit zoomable map, which is extremely lovely if you're happy to use your brain for the navigation and not bother with the advanced features.}

[Ningishzidda]

I think what you want is not really easily possible.
Any GPS device small enough for you to want it on a bike is too small to plan routes on very easily.

I've always pre-loaded routes / tracks / waypoints ahead of setting out.
I've never tried to do that stuff on-the-road.

It's possible that there may be some options using USB OTG and a tablet device.
Others can comment on that.

You've not been out riding with someone using a TomTom Urban Rider.
Therefore, you won't know how easy it is. 


As Kim implies in her Note 1, the TomTom and Garmin motorcycle satnavs have battery life appropriate to a days courier shift, ie 7 ½ to 8 hours depending on battery saving features active.
Riding a motorcycle around for 8 continuous hours without a four hour break is foolhardy ( and so is riding a bicycle, come to think ).
I use a 6000 mAhr pack via the mini USB to get approx. 20 hours life. This does a whole day ride on a bicycle.

[rafletcher]

Well I've never bothered with routing on a GPS, I just use it for recording rides, plus I enter a "home" point so in extremis I can tell it to take me back to where I started (obvs no good for "moving on" tours though! I assume you could just as easily set "home" to be a destination however). Other than that I use maps. They're easier to read and much more interesting. As other have said, on-device route planning isn't great. Smartphone plus TomTom app is probably the simplest.

EDIT:  Or look at this thread...  https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=92729.0

[velosam]

I am in the luddite camp as well, as although I have a map gps I really have not got the hang of mapping and moving files around.

If you are in the same camp as me I suspect a phone with an alternative source of charging would work better.

[Ningishzidda]

Well I've never bothered with routing on a GPS, I just use it for recording rides, plus I enter a "home" point so in extremis I can tell it to take me back to where I started (obvs no good for "moving on" tours though! I assume you could just as easily set "home" to be a destination however). Other than that I use maps. They're easier to read and much more interesting. As other have said, on-device route planning isn't great. Smartphone plus TomTom app is probably the simplest.

EDIT:  Or look at this thread...  https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=92729.0

AFAIK, the TT app does not include the Itinerary facility. It just 'points and shoots' like a car device. The specific M/C units have Itinerary routing for the courier riders.
I looked at Garmin's Zumo range. There is a 'Scooter' option, which keeps the user away from motorways and fast dual carriageways. TomTom has a 'Bicycle' setting which does the same.

[frankly frankie]

I think what you want is not really easily possible.
Any GPS device small enough for you to want it on a bike is too small to plan routes on very easily.

I really don't think this is so.  It does depend largely on how much patience you have with 'fiddly', but given how much faffing some people seem to put into just getting astride their bike in the morning, I don't really see a problem.

The OP isn't 'planning' on the device, he's transferring a pre-planned route from map to GPS. 
I do have to ask why? - because most GPSs have a huge amount of Route memory such that you could load a month's trip ahead of leaving home, and still allow plenty of options, route alternatives, shortening or lengthening days, etc, all this is possible with pre-planned routes, and if you still want to go ad-hoc mid-trip, there is still capacity for that too.  Even an older Etrex stores 50 Routes.  Be disciplined with naming them (eg start with a day number, 01- 02- etc) or you'll never find the one you want in a long list on a tiny screen.

But all that aside, if the OP would just make the route 'the evening before' rather 'in the morning', ie over a beer rather than over a weetabix, then it's completely practical.  I've toured France from end to end in that fashion.  The main trick is to keep each bite small.  Say you do 100km a day on average - after each 25km stop at a bar for a break, and put the next destination (25km away) in, possibly with 1 or 2 via points to keep it on route, just by click-clicking across the on-screen map.  Rinse and repeat.

[edit to add - I think a touchscreen device would be a nightmare for this, unless perhaps if you use it with a stylus - poking with your finger across a 2x1 map is nowhere near precise enough.  But on a button-driven Etrex it's all fine.

[hatler]

I think what you want is not really easily possible.
Any GPS device small enough for you to want it on a bike is too small to plan routes on very easily.

I really don't think this is so.  It does depend largely on how much patience you have with 'fiddly', but given how much faffing some people seem to put into just getting astride their bike in the morning, I don't really see a problem.

The OP isn't 'planning' on the device, he's transferring a pre-planned route from map to GPS. 
I do have to ask why? - because most GPSs have a huge amount of Route memory such that you could load a month's trip ahead of leaving home, and still allow plenty of options, route alternatives, shortening or lengthening days, etc, all this is possible with pre-planned routes, and if you still want to go ad-hoc mid-trip, there is still capacity for that too.  Even an older Etrex stores 50 Routes.  Be disciplined with naming them (eg start with a day number, 01- 02- etc) or you'll never find the one you want in a long list on a tiny screen.

But all that aside, if the OP would just make the route 'the evening before' rather 'in the morning', ie over a beer rather than over a weetabix, then it's completely practical.  I've toured France from end to end in that fashion.  The main trick is to keep each bite small.  Say you do 100km a day on average - after each 25km stop at a bar for a break, and put the next destination (25km away) in, possibly with 1 or 2 via points to keep it on route, just by click-clicking across the on-screen map.  Rinse and repeat.

[edit to add - I think a touchscreen device would be a nightmare for this, unless perhaps if you use it with a stylus - poking with your finger across a 2x1 map is nowhere near precise enough.  But on a button-driven Etrex it's all fine.

Thank you all for your input. There's much to think on here. That will occupy the fun side of my brain whilst I look for a new job.

Ref ff's point above (emboldened), I haven't got the patience to work up a mass of different possible routes. Inefficient use of time. I want to be able to route create in the morning (or just possibly the evening before) depending upon any number of inputs; weather, how far we fancy cycling, how we're all feeling, where we want to eat, which way the wind's blowing etc etc.

I might wander along to somewhere soon and have a play with an Etrex and a Satmap.

The last thing I want to be doing is logging rides, or building routes on a computer, or checking my heartrate, or sharing my route with others.

All I'm trying to do away with is the faff of having to handle paper maps on a wet day whilst still being bomb-proof on turn decisions.

[Ningishzidda]

With a 'touch screen', having one's index fingernail trimmed like a claw is a bonus.

[tom_e]

Ref ff's point above (emboldened), I haven't got the patience to work up a mass of different possible routes. Inefficient use of time. I want to be able to route create in the morning (or just possibly the evening before) depending upon any number of inputs; weather, how far we fancy cycling, how we're all feeling, where we want to eat, which way the wind's blowing etc etc.

I might wander along to somewhere soon and have a play with an Etrex and a Satmap.

The last thing I want to be doing is logging rides, or building routes on a computer, or checking my heartrate, or sharing my route with others.

All I'm trying to do away with is the faff of having to handle paper maps on a wet day whilst still being bomb-proof on turn decisions.

Given that response I would commend Kim's suggestion:

[3] Eg. Many devices do an excellent job of showing "you are here" on a live-scrolling, waterproof, backlit zoomable map, which is extremely lovely if you're happy to use your brain for the navigation and not bother with the advanced features.

It's how I work on tour.  Browse the paper map in camp / pub, then use the electronic map once on the bike.  The route is in my head, there is no creating / storing / navigating anything electronically.

[Speshact]

I'm in the technologically challenged camp.

I use an Etrex 20 (AA batteries) to supplement a map. I identify a point I'm heading to on the map and find it on the Etrex by wiggling the joy stick and clicking when I find the destination, then either ask the Etrex to:
a) give me a straight line to the destination, so I can keep track of whether I'm heading vaguely in the right direction
or
b) give me a route, have a quick look comparing to the map to see if there are any obviously silly detours/hills

If b) isn't working for me, e.g. due to poor Open Street Map data (recently in Brittany), then I just switch it back to straight line and refer to the map as necessary. At least I can tell, at a glance on the Etrex, where I am and which direction I'm heading in, then refer to the map.

[frankly frankie]

That's the way. 

OpenStreetMap in rural France is way behind what it is in the UK.  In many tourist areas eg Provence, or round Bordeaux, it's very good and now better than Garmin's maps, but in northern and especially central France it isn't really a patch on Garmin's own (expensive) offering.  In big university towns OSM is completely overloaded with data and can bring an older GPS to its knees, the best thing you can do in these places is zoom right in so that the mapped area is as small as possible.  Newer GPSs have more processing power and can cope with this better.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Hopping on to the coattails of this thread to ask if anyone's got any experience of the Memory Map 3000? http://www.memory-map.co.uk/adventurer-3000-gps-os-landranger-gb It appeals to me because it comes preloaded with OS 1:50,000 maps for the whole of the UK, and these happen to be my favourite maps for cycling. It also has a slightly larger screen. OTOH it's a bit more expensive than the other options I'm thinking of*, it doesn't say anything about battery life and I feel I'd prefer a button to wiggle rather than a touchscreen. Also, whereas Garmins are sold at real, live shops where I can play with them (even if I buy online), Memory Map doesn't seem to be. Oh, and it's described as 'weatherproof' in contrast to the Garmins' IPX7.

Generally, I'd probably want to follow a line which I've downloaded from somewhere like cycle.travel or whatever an audax organiser uses, rather than routesheet-style instructions, though a combination of both might be nice. I see it being potentially useful to me in three situations:
Touring, which really means weekends away – here I usually know in advance where I'm going and tend to follow a map on the barbag, so a GPS would simply be a paperless version of this.
Audaxes, where my current strategy is to peg a map-with-line or a route sheet on the gear cables (map is easier to follow but also easier to ride past a turn – especially downhill!) – I figure this is the area which would benefit the most from going techy, both in route-following and DIY validation (if I ever feel fit enough to ride with the local DIYers).
Solo (or even group) day rides, where I tend to head off with a vague destination in mind and a map in my pocket – occasionally I ride off the edge of the map and then realise I don't know where I am anymore!
I don't see myself actually plotting anything on a little screen.

*Those options being Edge Touring, Etrex 20 or to carry on without a GPS.

[frankly frankie]

This page
http://www.scarletfire.co.uk/maps-comparison-city-navigator-and-os-discoverer/
is a very useful illustration of the (occasional) pluses and (frequent) minuses of using OS 1:50:000 on a Garmin.
To me, at nearly every zoom level, and certainly every practical cycling zoom level, the Garmin maps are more useful.
The MM device may well improve on this, a bigger screen will help for a start - but ultimately I don't see how it can escape the same issues, unless it also has 1:25,000 and even 1:10,000 on board which would get very expensive and very memory-hungry.

[Pancho]

I'm also in the market for this sort of gizmo. I don't ask much - desktop functionality (and screensize) on something the size of a bar mounted watch!

I have an ancient etrex (?) which I used to use in conjunction with a Windows programme that contained OS Maps of the entire UK (vast expense back then - I see they are now cheap). I'd manually create routes and "programme" beep points into the GPS 50 metres or so ahead of turns. It took hours (in a warm office) but meant I was less likely to spend hours (on a cold, rainy road) lost because I'd missed L on a (wet, streaked) routesheet.

Can I:

( a ) buy a waterproof phone[1] (Sony?) with a bar mount?

( b ) use OSM[2] on it - with a route I've fettled using Graphhopper (or similar) on a desktop?

( c ) plug in a "back up" mega-battery that'll keep it going[3]?

( d ) use pre-downloaded stuff[4] so that it doesn't all die when I leave mobile coverage?

[1] Phones have lovely big screens and do phone stuff - meaning I don't need to lug two bits of kit.

[2] I like OSM. I like being able to correct it rather than just get irritated by it.

[3] I've seen such things on Amazon so I think this must be doable.

[4] And download stuff easily - no command line words of magic that leave you with a zillion files that don't seem to be maps.

Thanks

[tom_e]

I have a garmin, but I only use it for long bike rides or proper walking days out now, the phone gets used for all more 'casual' navigation.

( a ) buy a waterproof phone[1] (Sony?) with a bar mount?

Yes, as I understand it.  I don't have one.

( b ) use OSM[2] on it - with a route I've fettled using Graphhopper (or similar) on a desktop?
( d ) use pre-downloaded stuff[4] so that it doesn't all die when I leave mobile coverage?

Yes - both of these rest on finding an "app" to your tastes.  I have used OSMAnd.  Download full UK coverage in advance easily.  Set up the route on a desktop PC, email the gpx file to myself and then open it from the phone into OSMAnd directly so it highlights on the map.  Not used it for prompts from a gpx file.

( c ) plug in a "back up" mega-battery that'll keep it going[3]?

In the dry, yes.  Trickier in the wet; the charge connection may not be waterproof, though you can recharge in shelter between riding.  My own smartphone will do about 4-5 hours continuous screen-on navigation to completely flatten the battery.  With no allowance for phoning home.  I reckon you could alternate an hour's charge in a cafe with three hours ride.  Depending on your attitude, you may be happy to change your plans and do something else instead of ride for hours in the rain.

If you only turn it on when you need to for navigation rather than continuously, you can spin the battery out for longer.  Trouble with this approach on the phone is your ability to make a phone call, see a weather forecast, etc is all dependent on the same battery.  So when you're having a bad day navigationally, your plan B is crippled.

[1] Phones have lovely big screens and do phone stuff - meaning I don't need to lug two bits of kit.

Agreed entirely.  My garmin is better at the outdoors stuff, but if it broke now I would think quite hard before replacing it.

[Cudzoziemiec]

This page
http://www.scarletfire.co.uk/maps-comparison-city-navigator-and-os-discoverer/
is a very useful illustration of the (occasional) pluses and (frequent) minuses of using OS 1:50:000 on a Garmin.
To me, at nearly every zoom level, and certainly every practical cycling zoom level, the Garmin maps are more useful.
The MM device may well improve on this, a bigger screen will help for a start - but ultimately I don't see how it can escape the same issues, unless it also has 1:25,000 and even 1:10,000 on board which would get very expensive and very memory-hungry.

Thanks, FF. Looks a pretty useful site. No, the MMs don't have multiple scales on board, you get to choose one. You can get a Europe-wide sat nav card with voice directions (for £100) but even if I felt like spending another hundred quid, that woud make me feel "unexpected item in the mapping area"!

[rr]

Pancho
Veiwranger will do all this, you can download the osm and open cycling maps in advance which saves data and battery. You can buy tiles of OS and overseas equivalents.
It is possible to plan routes on a 5in phone, bit much easier on a PC.
I use a 5in phone with a waterproof case that incorporates a handbar mount.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Buzzed down to Taunton Camping and had a look/play with an Etrex 30. Not impressed by the Garmin Basemap! Also, the whole thing is slow to load/move. Perhaps turn-by-turn is actually more useful, especially on such a small screen. Or perhaps option z should be chosen.

[Biggsy]

You're not expected to use the base map by itself.  You add City Navigator or OSM or whatever.

[Cudzoziemiec]

According to Garmin's website, the Etrexes come with what they call Topo Light mapping, which is based on OSM. Or alternatively with Birdseye Select, which looks very contoury and detailed. They certainly imply those are enough. But in any case, what I saw in the shop didn't look anything like either of those.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Ah, just checked the Taunton Leisure site. The version they sell doesn't have either of those mapping options, but has a £20 voucher to use against the mapping. If you buy direct from the Garmin site you get the mapping but pay £35 or so more.