Author Topic: [HAMR] Current thoughts on the record attempt?  (Read 252815 times)

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #100 on: 06 July, 2015, 09:23:37 pm »
I have been watching this contest/duel between Kurt and Steve with huge interest from the start. Both are exceptional rides ( I have met them both). However, as good as they may be, neither is getting anywhere close to the monstrous daily mileages that Tommy put in. Given the era that this attempt happened and the non-existance of doping rules at the time, is it just possible that dear old Tommy was dropping a snifter of Pot Belge (or something similar) every day?  Just a thought.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #101 on: 07 July, 2015, 08:42:51 am »
Highly unlikely.

Tommy was paced in a peloton.

Actually, given that relatives of Tommy get to hear what is being said (and have been vocally supportive of Steve), I think you should delete your groundless accusation.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #102 on: 07 July, 2015, 10:20:36 am »
Yes a groundless accusation which should be removed with all possible haste
 :facepalm:

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #103 on: 07 July, 2015, 11:27:12 am »
I do not think that we should crucify Mr Climberruss. Let's put things into their context.  Although doping is recognized now as a form of cheating, no one have accuse Tommy of cheating in any way. It is just that the acceptability of doping in 1939 was not what it is now.  Remember than not so long ago, it was perfectly acceptable to drive a car after drinking alcohol, or to smoke in public venues.

I have read a very old version of the Tour de France rules, probably circa 1910, I can't find out the exact reference, but one of the rules was: "Les produits fortifiants ne seront pas fournis par l'organisateur". The "produits fortifiants" are what we would call dope today, they were not explicitly prohibited, they were just not provided by the organizer!

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #104 on: 07 July, 2015, 11:43:46 am »
I have been watching this contest/duel between Kurt and Steve with huge interest from the start. Both are exceptional rides ( I have met them both). However, as good as they may be, neither is getting anywhere close to the monstrous daily mileages that Tommy put in. Given the era that this attempt happened and the non-existance of doping rules at the time, is it just possible that dear old Tommy was dropping a snifter of Pot Belge (or something similar) every day?  Just a thought.

I'll defend you on this one Climberruss. You are a brave man to make this suggestion; and I think you could be not far from the truth. Amphetamines were available over the counter until September 1939.

In 1937 - 39, my uncle rode for the RAF out of Cosford, Shrops. They rode 250 miles per day 'just for a day out to Skeggy'.
Another uncle who recalled his elder brother's exploits, told of a day on a bike from Birmingham to Rhyl and back. On the return, my uncle who survived the war told me he was offered a 'little pep-me-up' by one of the RAF riders.


TimC

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #105 on: 07 July, 2015, 12:16:14 pm »
Reading the various references on here and elsewhere, Godwin's effort was a full-on professional competitive venture with major support including pacemen. It was pretty much the equivalent of Team Sky doing it now! As a professional racing cyclist with over 200 road and TT victories, Tommy was likely no stranger to the various concoctions openly used to fuel pro riders of the time. So, yes, he probably used stuff you can't use now. But that is not to suggest he cheated by the rules that applied at the time.

Mr Larrington

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #106 on: 07 July, 2015, 12:35:27 pm »
I'll defend you on this one Climberruss. You are a brave man to make this suggestion; and I think you could be not far from the truth. Amphetamines were available over the counter until September 1939.

And after September 1939 they were routinely handed out to combatants on both sides.
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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #107 on: 07 July, 2015, 12:39:37 pm »
So the modern day equivalent of Tommy’s approach would be for two or three fast cyclists to pace Steve for fifty mile sections.
Five teams of two riders who go out to a location and ride to another fifty miles away, then have to return home to recuperate for the next day is a jolly grand undertaking of logistics and organisation in its own right.
Which means at least ten fully financed ‘domestiques’ on the road 365 continuous days.
At a salary of £480 per week ( to pluck a number out of the air ), that amounts to £250,000 to support the 10 team members.

Where is a ‘modern day’ attempt organisation going to get that kind of cash? Unless I am ignorantly naïve of Steve’s financial status.  :o

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #108 on: 07 July, 2015, 12:40:42 pm »
I'll defend you on this one Climberruss. You are a brave man to make this suggestion; and I think you could be not far from the truth. Amphetamines were available over the counter until September 1939.

And after September 1939 they were routinely handed out to combatants on both sides.

Yes. Along with those pills that gave one the droop.  ;)

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #109 on: 07 July, 2015, 12:53:09 pm »
Surely that was bromide in the Tea?

Quote from: Spike Milligan
I don’t think the bromide had any lasting effect, the only way to stop a BRITISH soldier feeling randy is to load bromide into a 300-pound shell and fire it at him from the waist down.
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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #110 on: 07 July, 2015, 01:33:04 pm »
While amphetamines were not illegal to use in Tommy's day, they are viewed very differently now.

I can see this being repeated as "Well he only managed it because of doping". A few repetitions of that and it is taken as 'fact'.

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red marley

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #111 on: 07 July, 2015, 01:34:37 pm »
So the modern day equivalent of Tommy’s approach would be for two or three fast cyclists to pace Steve for fifty mile sections.
Five teams of two riders who go out to a location and ride to another fifty miles away, then have to return home to recuperate for the next day is a jolly grand undertaking of logistics and organisation in its own right.
Which means at least ten fully financed ‘domestiques’ on the road 365 continuous days.
At a salary of £480 per week ( to pluck a number out of the air ), that amounts to £250,000 to support the 10 team members.

Where is a ‘modern day’ attempt organisation going to get that kind of cash? Unless I am ignorantly naïve of Steve’s financial status.  :o

It's worth re-reading the Western Daily Press article in Salvatore's post above that makes it clear that they had stopped pacing Godwin (and Bennett) by August. Godwin's professional support from Raleigh only started in April/May so while significant, the opportunity for professional pacing only lasted for three months or so.

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #112 on: 07 July, 2015, 01:54:59 pm »
Changing tack slightly and looking at Steve's recent routes I'd have to say that his attempt is looking a bit Washed up.   :facepalm:
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 571 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #113 on: 07 July, 2015, 02:30:23 pm »
In the absence of any evidence to suggest that Tommy personally used any substances, regardless of the fact that others at that time might have done, it would be grossly unfair to assume that he must have as well. Tommy isn't here to defend himself and this speculation serves no purpose whatsoever particularly within the context of whether Steve or anyone else can beat Tommy's record.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #114 on: 07 July, 2015, 02:31:58 pm »
So the modern day equivalent of Tommy’s approach would be for two or three fast cyclists to pace Steve for fifty mile sections.
Five teams of two riders who go out to a location and ride to another fifty miles away, then have to return home to recuperate for the next day is a jolly grand undertaking of logistics and organisation in its own right.
Which means at least ten fully financed ‘domestiques’ on the road 365 continuous days.
At a salary of £480 per week ( to pluck a number out of the air ), that amounts to £250,000 to support the 10 team members.

Where is a ‘modern day’ attempt organisation going to get that kind of cash? Unless I am ignorantly naïve of Steve’s financial status.  :o

It's worth re-reading the Western Daily Press article in Salvatore's post above that makes it clear that they had stopped pacing Godwin (and Bennett) by August. Godwin's professional support from Raleigh only started in April/May so while significant, the opportunity for professional pacing only lasted for three months or so.

I think the point is, Jo, that there are many differences between the two TGs' attempts and that 'our' TG is doing it with rather fewer contemporary advantages than were made available to Tommy, notwithstanding the rather better bikes he's using. IMO, that makes Steve's (and Kurt's) efforts more amazing rather than less!

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #115 on: 07 July, 2015, 02:48:57 pm »
So the modern day equivalent of Tommy’s approach would be for two or three fast cyclists to pace Steve for fifty mile sections.
Five teams of two riders who go out to a location and ride to another fifty miles away, then have to return home to recuperate for the next day is a jolly grand undertaking of logistics and organisation in its own right.
Which means at least ten fully financed ‘domestiques’ on the road 365 continuous days.
At a salary of £480 per week ( to pluck a number out of the air ), that amounts to £250,000 to support the 10 team members.

Where is a ‘modern day’ attempt organisation going to get that kind of cash? Unless I am ignorantly naïve of Steve’s financial status.  :o

It's worth re-reading the Western Daily Press article in Salvatore's post above that makes it clear that they had stopped pacing Godwin (and Bennett) by August. Godwin's professional support from Raleigh only started in April/May so while significant, the opportunity for professional pacing only lasted for three months or so.

But what months they were!

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #116 on: 07 July, 2015, 03:00:15 pm »
While amphetamines were not illegal to use in Tommy's day, they are viewed very differently now.

I can see this being repeated as "Well he only managed it because of doping". A few repetitions of that and it is taken as 'fact'.

Nobody is saying this mrcharly. Only you. Don't put words into my mouth.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #117 on: 07 July, 2015, 03:11:10 pm »
While amphetamines were not illegal to use in Tommy's day, they are viewed very differently now.

I can see this being repeated as "Well he only managed it because of doping". A few repetitions of that and it is taken as 'fact'.

Nobody is saying this mrcharly. Only you. Don't put words into my mouth.

"He only managed it with 'pep-me-up-pills' legally available at the time."

Similar to what I did to get my dissertation finished....  ;)

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #118 on: 07 July, 2015, 03:12:45 pm »
First time I've come back to this thread since my post.

With regard to Arry-R and mrcharly, I am not making accusations, merely raising a discussion point. Back then doping was almost universal with the chief substances being Pot Belge and Amphetamines. Today it is generally accepted but still taboo to talk about the fact that Sean Kelly and Eddy Merckx were doping and yet it's fine to have a go (me included) at a certain Texan.

With regard to Malmesbury Monk -  "it would be grossly unfair to assume that he must have as well." - I am not assuming, merely raising a discussion point.

From Salvatores post - "that makes it clear that they had stopped pacing Godwin (and Bennett) by August." - this may be far more interesting as these are precisely the months when Tommy put in his biggest rides. Post August, his daily mileage dropped off quite noticably.

At least we know two things..Steve and Kurt and Miles are doing this thing fairly and clean.

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #119 on: 07 July, 2015, 03:47:57 pm »
You started suggesting he was taking drugs.

You have no evidence and it is not possible for anyone to disprove it.

I regard this as a shoddy accusation. Own your own words.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #120 on: 07 July, 2015, 04:28:26 pm »
Here here!
 :thumbsup:

LMT

Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #121 on: 07 July, 2015, 05:44:28 pm »
You started suggesting he was taking drugs.

You have no evidence and it is not possible for anyone to disprove it.

I regard this as a shoddy accusation. Own your own words.

In the context of that era and the way that Russ put his point across I'd say it was about fair - certainly not shoddy.

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #122 on: 07 July, 2015, 06:18:25 pm »
First time I've come back to this thread since my post.

With regard to Arry-R and mrcharly, I am not making accusations, merely raising a discussion point. Back then doping was almost universal with the chief substances being Pot Belge and Amphetamines. Today it is generally accepted but still taboo to talk about the fact that Sean Kelly and Eddy Merckx were doping and yet it's fine to have a go (me included) at a certain Texan.
I agree.

And because noone frowned on drug use at the time,  I see it as completely fair.

There are plenty of advantages available to the riders in the 2 eras - its all part of the intrigue. :)
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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #123 on: 07 July, 2015, 06:21:49 pm »
Surely that was bromide in the Tea?

Quote from: Spike Milligan
I don’t think the bromide had any lasting effect, the only way to stop a BRITISH soldier feeling randy is to load bromide into a 300-pound shell and fire it at him from the waist down.


Excellent Milligan quote Mr Larrington  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

TimC

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Re: Current thoughts on the record attempt?
« Reply #124 on: 07 July, 2015, 07:54:58 pm »
You started suggesting he was taking drugs.

You have no evidence and it is not possible for anyone to disprove it.

I regard this as a shoddy accusation. Own your own words.

Why shoddy? I would have thought that it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that Tommy used the stimulants openly and commonly used in pro cycling at the time. He was a pro cyclist, after all. Thae fact that they are now illegal is irrelevant. It would be more surprising if he did not use them.