Bye Lance

[spesh]

I think it's more that they have nothing to gain than anything to lose that makes them credible witnesses. The culture has changed - there's probably still doping but there's no omertà. It's hardly the principled stand of a Bassons or a Simeoni.

And who knows, maybe the USADA has information about these riders that it's using to blackmail them...

(Not that you'd imagine they could have anything on Zabriskie.)

d.

To be honest, if you look back at how USPS/Discovery operated in the mountains, the whole team would have had to have been on the juice in order to ride as they did on a daily basis. As Dave Z was in USPS 2001-2004, the balance of probability points towards him being on the juice as well.

Given the way Armstrong dealt with anyone who he felt had slighted him, it's fair to assume that USPS/Discovery riders would have been told to get with the (doping) program or get out, the latter option probably also involving their career prospects being ruined by Armstrong and Bruyneel.

Now, didn't the abortive Federal investigation include people testifying before a Grand Jury? IANAL but I imagine that the threat of having to do hard time for perjury would have concentrated a few minds...

[Exit Stage Left]

At the end of the day all the sanctions that the USADA has against Lance is to rescind his Olympic Bronze at Sydney. They weren't a competent body for the Tour, which at one point even placed itself outside the UCI system and was organised under the French national body. I'd be looking at riders who have 'slimmed down' for the Olympics at present.
Edit, the USADA only started operations in October 2000, after Lance had competed at Sydney, which probably tells us a lot about Lance, but makes you wonder what they are trying to acheive.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Given that LA is implicated with corruption at the UCI and his teammates and support staff are prominent in the pro peleton, there might be a reason to thoroughly investigate and punish. 'To encourage the others' if nothing else.

[Rhys W]

Lance charged with doping, immediate ban from all sports and he's likely to be stripped of 7 Tour wins (and probably more).

Lance's ex-teammates confess to doping with the same substances, get 6-month off-season ban.

Anybody else struck by the imbalance here?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Telling the truth, albeit under duress, should have no reward?

[spesh]

Lance charged with doping, immediate ban from all sports and he's likely to be stripped of 7 Tour wins (and probably more).

Regarding the Tour wins; there are such things as statutes of limitations, so it's a bit early to presume how many wins he'll lose, and in any case, that'll be down to ASO and/or the UCI to decide.

Lance's ex-teammates confess to doping with the same substances, get 6-month off-season ban.

Anybody else struck by the imbalance here?

First, we have no idea what testimony any of Armstrong's former team-mates have given to either the Grand Jury in the federal investigation, or to USADA. None of the four mentioned in the report have said anything definitive in public.

Jonathan Vaughters has denied that any Garmin riders have been issued with post-dated suspensions* (which covers Dave Z and Christian Vande Velde), and I've seen comments elsewhere to the effect that the story in De Telegraaf smacks of Bruyneel leaking to the press, trying to make USADA look bad. If suspensions have already been issued, I'm sure USADA would have announced them in the proper manner.

One last thing, plea-bargaining is a well-established tactic, on both sides of the Pond, and if it helps to chisel away at the culture of omertà, then I'm all for it.

* see also Mr Bunbury's post above.

EDITED - to correct names of Garmin riders "outed", Leipheimer rides for Omega Pharma-Quickstep.

[mrcharly-YHT]

If he cheated then it is right that people stand up with evidence against him. To not do so is as bad as cheating itself.

If they were all 'doping', were any of them 'cheating'?

[Exit Stage Left]

Lance is quite handy for the USADA. Every Olympic year they can go after him to show US Athletes that no-one is immune if the taint of suspicion is on them. He's be less useful if the case was resolved. Eventually the legend will fade and they'll have to hope someone else comes along.

[spesh]

Further to my comment about Bruyneel in my previous post, Matt Rendell retweeted an interesting snippet from Shane Stokes a little while ago:

as UCI_Overlord just reminded me, Johan Bruyneel writes a column for Telesport, which printed today's leaked news. Interesting

 http://twitter.com/SSbike/status/220843568061890561

[alexb]

So, given that the Tour is "owned" by ASO, why haven't they reacted and thrown the implicated/confessed riders off the Tour? They could and have reacted like this in the past.

[Exit Stage Left]

The USADA is not the competent body overseeing the Tour, that's the UCI. ASO have had disputes before with the UCI, running the 2008 Tour under the French Federation. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/7435173.stm
The Olympic doping bodies become significant in an Olympic year, when the Olympic riders are under greater scrutiny.

[citoyen]

USADA responds to De Telegraaf article...
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12299/USADA-responds-to-Dutch-report-says-attempts-to-guess-at-witnesses-can-lead-to-errors-or-intimidation.aspx

[Rig of Jarkness]

Lance charged with doping, immediate ban from all sports and he's likely to be stripped of 7 Tour wins (and probably more).

Lance's ex-teammates confess to doping with the same substances, get 6-month off-season ban.

Anybody else struck by the imbalance here?

Plea bargaining.  Letting a few smaller fish off lightly in order to catch the big one.  I hope they succeed.

[LEE]

Lance charged with doping, immediate ban from all sports and he's likely to be stripped of 7 Tour wins (and probably more).

Lance's ex-teammates confess to doping with the same substances, get 6-month off-season ban.

Anybody else struck by the imbalance here?

Plea bargaining.  Letting a few smaller fish off lightly in order to catch the big one.  I hope they succeed.

I couldn't agree less.

A cheat is a cheat.  If Hincapie cheated then throw him off the tour immediately.  How come he gets to finish his career even though he appears now to be a self-confessed, unpunished, drugs cheat? 

To me plea-bargaining seems to be a way of buying the evidence you want to hear, a way to forever make any evidence doubtful.

[mattc]

A large proportion of our criminal justice system depends on it. Why don't you argue with them about it?

False imprisonment for murder is a slightly bigger deal than a sportsmen getting away with cheating.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The majority of the pro peleton are 'unpunished, drugs cheats'. Self-confessed is a small step forward.

[LEE]

A large proportion of our criminal justice system depends on it. Why don't you argue with them about it?

False imprisonment for murder is a slightly bigger deal than a sportsmen getting away with cheating.

So getting it wrong is OK if the crime is less serious than murder? 

This seems like someone who committed Crime A getting a reduced sentence so they can convict someone for committing Crime A.  They are throwing away what principles they have left to get Lance.

I don't see why a blatant drugs cheat is now cycling in the tour, appearing clean as a whistle.

It would be quite funny if Hincapie testified that "I never saw Lance doing anything wrong" after all this.

[LEE]

The majority of the pro peleton are 'unpunished, drugs cheats'. Self-confessed is a small step forward.

"Self-confessed" is usually done a few seconds before someone is exposed by someone else.

You think Hincapie just saw the light and got a conscience?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Of course! How do you think that drug testing methods can come close to keeping up with ever-evolving avoidance techniques and drugs?

Hit dopers hard and be relentless, otherwise the rewards far outweigh the risks. The ones to hit the hardest are the ones that have the most to lose.

[LEE]

Hit dopers hard and be relentless, otherwise the rewards far outweigh the risks. The ones to hit the hardest are the ones that have the most to lose.

Again I disagree.

The penalty should be the same for everyone, Amateur, Pro, successful, unsuccessful, famous, infamous or anonymous.

I don't understand why Lance is immediately charged and banned yet Hincapie is riding in the tour.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Armstrong and Bruneel are heavily linked with corruption in the UCI and systemised doping. That counts for extra attention in my book but please yourselves.

[mattc]

The penalty should be the same for everyone, Amateur, Pro, successful, unsuccessful, famous, infamous or anonymous.

I don't see that you CAN make the penalty the same. Every situation will be different. Banning Lance from all future tours would have rather less effect than banning Hincapie!

[Tigerrr]

Hit dopers hard and be relentless, otherwise the rewards far outweigh the risks. The ones to hit the hardest are the ones that have the most to lose.

Again I disagree.

The penalty should be the same for everyone, Amateur, Pro, successful, unsuccessful, famous, infamous or anonymous.

I don't understand why Lance is immediately charged and banned yet Hincapie is riding in the tour.

[alexb]

Why Vino is there is also a mystery.

[citoyen]

Why Vino is there is also a mystery.

Because he's served his punishment according to the rules of the sport. If you think he deserves further punishment, campaign to get the rules changed. If you think he's still cheating, show us the evidence.

d.