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Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 283718 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #250 on: 06 July, 2012, 05:41:56 pm »
Quote from: citoyen on 06 July, 2012, 04:55:34 pm
Hincapie hasn't been accused of any offence, therefore he is neither guilty nor innocent of any offence.

He is Schrödinger's Doper, if you like.
IMO this is bizarre semantics. You are not currently in prison, because you're not guilty of anything requiring it (if you'll forgive the simplification).

I choose to describe you as an "innocent man". It seems that by your logic you are under suspicion of many unsolved crimes, unable to prove your innocence until you are thoroughly investigated!

Is this really how you view every man on the street, or all your loved ones? It seems a very negative worldview! I shall stick to my "irrelevant platitudes".

Anyway...
 now I understand your viewpoint, I see it is immune to debate; we will just have to agree to disagree. The RELEVANT fact is that Hincapie can race until the authorities punish him for some offence. I call this "innocent", you call it "not yet accused"! Either way, he can race.
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #251 on: 09 July, 2012, 03:01:26 pm »
Quote from: mattc on 06 July, 2012, 05:41:56 pm
Is this really how you view every man on the street, or all your loved ones?

Generally, it doesn't occur to me to think of people in terms of whether or not they've committed a crime.

Anyway, more interestingly...

I've just read on twitter that Lance has filed for an injunction to halt the USADA's case because it's unconstitutional.

That should win him a few more friends, I reckon.

d.
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mzjo

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #252 on: 09 July, 2012, 08:43:29 pm »
Quote from: mattc on 06 July, 2012, 05:41:56 pm
Quote from: citoyen on 06 July, 2012, 04:55:34 pm
Hincapie hasn't been accused of any offence, therefore he is neither guilty nor innocent of any offence.

He is Schrödinger's Doper, if you like.
IMO this is bizarre semantics. You are not currently in prison, because you're not guilty of anything requiring it (if you'll forgive the simplification).

I choose to describe you as an "innocent man". It seems that by your logic you are under suspicion of many unsolved crimes, unable to prove your innocence until you are thoroughly investigated!

Is this really how you view every man on the street, or all your loved ones? It seems a very negative worldview! I shall stick to my "irrelevant platitudes".

Anyway...
 now I understand your viewpoint, I see it is immune to debate; we will just have to agree to disagree. The RELEVANT fact is that Hincapie can race until the authorities punish him for some offence. I call this "innocent", you call it "not yet accused"! Either way, he can race.

FWIW The riders (and others) cannot be accused and judged of anything before the Armstrong case comes up because that would mean that USADA would have to release their names, which it doesn't want to do because of protecting witnesses' identities. There is no positive test to trigger action, only the word of others. Thus no reason to stop them racing, if anything the opposite because if they stop racing in doubtful circumstances it lets the cat out.
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spesh

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #253 on: 10 July, 2012, 12:57:11 am »
Quote from: citoyen on 09 July, 2012, 03:01:26 pm


I've just read on twitter that Lance has filed for an injunction to halt the USADA's case because it's unconstitutional.

That should win him a few more friends, I reckon.

And the injunction was dismissed in fairly short order.

Quote
"This Court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong's desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through eighty mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims."

80 pages... I mean, seriously?  :o

No wonder the judge told Armstrong - or more accurately, his lawyers - to go away and try again.
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"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

simonp

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #254 on: 10 July, 2012, 06:54:42 pm »
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spesh

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #255 on: 10 July, 2012, 07:07:04 pm »
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"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #256 on: 12 July, 2012, 09:38:32 pm »
Given Michele Ferrari's reputation, any rider who has ever had anything to do with him will be under suspicion (and that's a LOT of riders, including Cadel Evans).  If Armstrong was clean, he was a fool to be associated with the man.
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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #257 on: 12 July, 2012, 09:40:54 pm »
And Rogers and...

Does anybody seriously believe that LA wasn't doped to the eyeballs, really?
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rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #258 on: 12 July, 2012, 09:44:29 pm »
Like I say, either doped or a fool.
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fuzzy

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #259 on: 16 July, 2012, 12:37:50 pm »
Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 12 July, 2012, 09:40:54 pm
And Rogers and...

Does anybody seriously believe that LA wasn't doped to the eyeballs, really?

In the course of my business I have got to know many a drug peddlar. Not everyone who is associated with the drug peddlars I know makes use of their product. Some folk make use of the drug peddlars other professional services....
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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #260 on: 16 July, 2012, 12:45:34 pm »
You have looked at just the evidence already public and still think he was clean?

There is plenty of examples of 'never tested positive' athletes who doped heavily. LA does have positive dope tests, just not sanctioned for them for various reasons. How does that make him clean?
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Ian H

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #261 on: 16 July, 2012, 12:56:04 pm »
In the context of pro-cycling I really don't care whether Armstrong doped or not.  But perhaps I'm just old-fashioned.
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simonp

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #262 on: 16 July, 2012, 01:47:26 pm »
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1113450

Some info on the blood test data from 2009 which form part of the doping case. Very large change in hematrocrit between giro and tour.
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TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #263 on: 16 July, 2012, 01:58:25 pm »
Reading that, I'm a little unclear what is being relied on to form a case against Armstrong. What is a normal hematocrit level for an elite athlete, and how much can it be expected to vary? What effect does altitude have on it, and would the fact that Armstrong was in Aspen (for presumably an extended period while he awaited the birth of his child) in between the Giro and the Tour in 2009 have been significant? The article states that USADA are to claim that these blood tests show evidence of EPO use, but I can't see from that article what that evidence is. Do we know?
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #264 on: 16 July, 2012, 02:00:08 pm »
Quote from: TimC on 16 July, 2012, 01:58:25 pm
Do we know?

We don't, but presumably USADA won't be calling on any of us to provide expert testimony.

d.
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simonp

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #265 on: 16 July, 2012, 02:13:34 pm »
Quote from: TimC on 16 July, 2012, 01:58:25 pm
Reading that, I'm a little unclear what is being relied on to form a case against Armstrong. What is a normal hematocrit level for an elite athlete, and how much can it be expected to vary? What effect does altitude have on it, and would the fact that Armstrong was in Aspen (for presumably an extended period while he awaited the birth of his child) in between the Giro and the Tour in 2009 have been significant? The article states that USADA are to claim that these blood tests show evidence of EPO use, but I can't see from that article what that evidence is. Do we know?

From the article

Quote
To the extent that the long-range analysis of Armstrong's blood values represents a "smoking gun," USADA will presumably point to both the suspicious hematocrit fluctuations but also other measurements such as reticulocyte percentages and hemoglobin.

(My emphasis)

Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells, variations can indicate EPO use or blood doping.


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IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #266 on: 16 July, 2012, 03:33:04 pm »
Or iron tablets! ;)
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mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #267 on: 16 July, 2012, 03:39:29 pm »
Quote from: RossBD on 16 July, 2012, 01:28:59 pm
Quote from: Ian H on 16 July, 2012, 12:56:04 pm
In the context of pro-cycling I really don't care whether Armstrong doped or not.  But perhaps I'm just old-fashioned.
You're not alone, and I'm nowhere near as old as you.  :demon: ;D
Me too. (Somewhere in-between).
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Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Hillbilly

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #268 on: 17 July, 2012, 06:06:01 pm »
Regardless of how this pans out, Lance's story is still remarkable.  Surviving cancer to reach the pinnacle of a sport, by fair means or foul, remains an achievement that ultimately surpasses the titles he won.

Imo.

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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #269 on: 17 July, 2012, 09:36:46 pm »
I am interested to know for sure just how much the UCI have assisted LA.
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Domestique

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #270 on: 21 July, 2012, 05:34:12 pm »
Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 17 July, 2012, 09:36:46 pm
I am interested to know for sure just how much the UCI have assisted LA.

Wasnt LA the most tested rider ever at one point?
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Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #271 on: 21 July, 2012, 05:48:26 pm »
Well, Armsytong [French accent] MUST have doped, because he was so much better than clean riders like our wondeful Virenque...oops.
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Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #272 on: 21 July, 2012, 05:51:01 pm »
Quote from: Hillbilly on 17 July, 2012, 06:06:01 pm
Regardless of how this pans out, Lance's story is still remarkable.  Surviving cancer to reach the pinnacle of a sport, by fair means or foul, remains an achievement that ultimately surpasses the titles he won.

Imo.

Completely agree. I'd be incredibly disappointed if it's shown that he was doping, but let's be realistic. In that era, it seems that any advantage he gained would only have put him on a level footing with much of the rest of the peloton.
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Bye Lance
« Reply #273 on: 21 July, 2012, 06:19:04 pm »
Quote from: Domestique on 21 July, 2012, 05:34:12 pm
Wasnt LA the most tested rider ever at one point?

Ha! That old chestnut!

No. He isn't even the most tested US cyclist called Armstrong...

http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the-500/

d.
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mr magnolia

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #274 on: 03 August, 2012, 12:22:22 am »
I've noted a seeming complete absence of mention of LA throughout this years tour commentary, newspaper coverage, and the Olympic road racing. Interesting.
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